Universal reconciliation

jerry kelso · Jun 5, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
"Applied by the body agains dissenters," and anyone else who has an original thought or chafes under the wrongs in the Church. Your thinking leads to ecclesiastical tyranny, and would steer your Anglican church back to the RCC.

I'm sure rescue would seem like good news to Josef Stalin and a lot of other folks, but of course, that does not answer the question. Consider if the Judgment consists only in the determination that the wicked simply need more correction and purification? The orthodox seem to be unwilling to answer my question about anyone being dead and/or in Hell after God has become All in all and Death has been destroyed - now that would answer the question, but I don't think the orthodox can ever face it squarely.

lazarus short,

There is no scripture that says the dead will have any chance of more correction or purification. There is no purgatory for the dead after this life. That is not the context of 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 for the believers who didn't have good works. It has nothing to do with about sinners because the GWTJ is for sinners and they will be judged and punished for their works and for forever. Read Revelation 20:11-15.
After God has become all in all everything will be subject to God and death will be destroyed 1 Corinthians 15:26.
The passing away of the New Heaven and the New Earth in Revelation 21:1 will be the renovation of Heaven and Earth of 2 Peter 3:12. Renovation fire doesn't annihilate and it can destroy but in this case it is about the purification of the earth.
Even in the first renovation before the millennial kingdom the earth will not be annihilated Romans 8:21, Hebrews 12:27-29, 1 Peter 3:10-11.
So you are not in context with the bible at all only in your context of humanistic thinking or wrong hermeneutics. One day we will all have to face off what we believe and why we believe and whether or not it squares up with the word. Jerry kelso

Hillsage · Jun 5, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
"Applied by the body agains dissenters," and anyone else who has an original thought or chafes under the wrongs in the Church. Your thinking leads to ecclesiastical tyranny, and would steer your Anglican church back to the RCC.

I love it Laz; you talk 'historical' and then the mob crowd mentality amasses and you get accused of being a 'hysterical/heretic' in more than 'one way'. Well I've quoted it 50 times before here, but 'historical' only matters when it supports 'their view' not ours. Here, for the 51st 'never refuted before' time;

German Baptist - Philip Schaff writes :

“In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria…Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown.”
( The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge – Vol XII, Baker Book House, 1950, p. 96.)

So from an honest Baptist; this Universalist view was the majority of theological schools in early HISTORICAL existence. Before the RCC killed and martyred all those passive Christians who died clinging to the truth instead of a bloody sword.

I really love the repeated "I just believe the bible" answer too. They just can't explain where in the hell, hell went when it dropped from 54 times in the KJV to 32 times in the NKJV to 12-14 times in 'their translations'. And yet, I can even post 28 more BIBLE translations, where the word HELL doesn't even exist....kind of like the word HELL didn't exist in the beginning. Oh well Laz, what can I say that YOU don't already know.

nothead · Jun 5, 2016

jerry kelso said:
nothead,

1. I take it you don't like anything complete.

2. Hell is mentioned because it is real and it is for the wicked who do not serve their purpose and destiny for God.

3. Hell is not the gospel such as the death, burial, and resurrection of being saved. However, there are hard core sinners who are strongly out to kill the message of Christ and the messengers of Christ that need to know what they really are as sinners and why they are that way and what they need to know and do and believe in order to change their course.

4. The bible says the goodness of God leads to repentance but at the same time some people will not get the message of God's goodness and even pain; which is relative to all of us and the hard core will run away from and instead be angry towards God and look into other things to fulfill their life and those other things will be the lusts of the flesh in some manner.

5. Fundamentalists that teach the does and don'ts to the point of legalistic head banging do much damage preaching fire and brimstone of hell to browbeat by fear so people will go to heaven. This is probably the number 1 problem with those that grow up in the church and not are discipled properly. They are taught to do instead of being who they are in Christ. It is supposed to be who you are in Christ is why you do and they have it backwards.

6. Their is a proper time and context concerning hell that is right and needful.
Case in point, was back in the 1960's Brother Hubert Lindsey started preaching at the campuses and universities, specifically University of California Berkeley. People from the Black Panthers, Weather Underground, Manson family and all kinds of religious cults etc. Those people thought he was crazy and some would beat him up for preaching the Gospel and telling they were dirty rotten sinners in need of God's love etc. He would literally have to go to the hospital and get patched up and even lost his sight twice where the first time God healed him and the second time he did not.
Those people who were beating him up thought he was crazy but after a period of time of him continually coming back everyday and because of the anointing of the Holy Spirit on him they eventually started to get saved. After 3 years, Governor Reagan said the campus was cleared up mostly because of Holy Hubert's ministry. He was just like the apostle Paul.

7. Now I am not saying everyone has to be like the apostle Paul or Holy Hubert's ministry even though we do have to stand up for God and be willing to die for the cause of Christ but that is a time that being strong about hell and the condition of their heart because of their filthy living was appropriate.
He was a holiness preacher and they are strong and many did preach about hell but they had many souls for their labor.

8. People in church need to be discipled in God and his salvation and his goodness.

9. The point is to be led by God and to be wise as serpents of how to talk to people and when etc. and the anointing breaks the yoke, not persuasive oratory skills or brow beating in doing when it is not yet about being in Christ.

10. Also, the example has and can be used that if as a parent and you see your child fixing to go off the cliff would you not try to save him or would you let him walk off that cliff?

11. There are cases that the message of hell was a turning point of a person getting saved because they knew they were headed that way. As a christian if one is backsliding and not listening to God they need the fear of God in them. It seems ironic to me that people will secure themselves with fire insurance for their house and floods and many other things including health and life while on this earth but they will not plan for eternal because they want to be the children of their own lusts and sin and the big I in charge and not God. The servant is not greater than the master who happens to be God.

12. Everyone needs reconciliation but God is not going to make anyone do what they don't want to do and he demand obedience to him and he is love but judgement is part of that love so there won't be any rebels among them. The forever is because God said so and said even if one comes back from the dead no one would believe them.

13. God said in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 God will send a strong delusion and a person with a reprobate mind are not going to change it no matter how long the punishment.
The fact is that the bible does not teach UR or purgatory or a second chance after one physically dies. Jerry kelso

So then yes, Hell mentioned in the Bible IS to put the Fear of God into man.

FEAR since all men fall short in sin...even though many atheists can do the social end of the Ten. This leaves the Shema, which normally CANNOT be done by men, and NEVER done by Atheists. To love God with ALL your heart soul and might THROUGHOUT your life is a NOTHING Command to an Atheist or Agnostic who does not RECOGNIZE God.

And so too the First Command of the Ten. To have no other elohim (gods) to the face of YHWH. However both JisG AND trins reject this one too.

So then FEAR oh men AND Jerry Lucas, Comedian to the Stars.

nothead · Jun 5, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
[puts on asbestos suit] So, why is eternal torture in fire not heresy? There is some Biblical evidence for it, "that leans that way," in fact I first learned UR from a minister who admitted that the Bible appears to teach Eternal Torture, Eternal Destruction and Universal Reconciliation. We can't be 100% sure what will happen after we die, for the Bible does not lay it out in complete detail, BUT the ET-crowd never hesitates to dogmatize. I say, study the Bible with an open mind, and determine for yourself which is more consistent with the Scriptures as a whole. My opinion falls to UR, but I know there are lots of folks in the other two camps. I will say that from where I stand, ET looks like a Gospel of fear, and how is that "good news"?

Jesus is the GOOD NEWS, in opposition to Hell Fire Brimstone, gnashing of teef, regret, being thirsty, feeling da HEAT, treading on hot coals, poking each other and screaming, and orgies on the rocks. Whatever Dante figured out, whatever men's dreams tell them in nightmares, and whatever HORRORS this way might come.

nothead · Jun 5, 2016

Hillsage said:
I love it Laz; you talk 'historical' and then the mob crowd mentality amasses and you get accused of being a 'hysterical/heretic' in more than 'one way'. Well I've quoted it 50 times before here, but 'historical' only matters when it supports 'their view' not ours. Here, for the 51st 'never refuted before' time;

German Baptist - Philip Schaff writes :

“In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria…Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown.”
( The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge – Vol XII, Baker Book House, 1950, p. 96.)

So from an honest Baptist; this Universalist view was the majority of theological schools in early HISTORICAL existence. Before the RCC killed and martyred all those passive Christians who died clinging to the truth instead of a bloody sword.

I really love the repeated "I just believe the bible" answer too. They just can't explain where in the hell, hell went when it dropped from 54 times in the KJV to 32 times in the NKJV to 12-14 times in 'their translations'. And yet, I can even post 28 more BIBLE translations, where the word HELL doesn't even exist....kind of like the word HELL didn't exist in the beginning. Oh well Laz, what can I say that YOU don't already know.

The Hell you say...

Lazarus Short · Jun 5, 2016

nothead said:
The Hell you say...

Hillsage is correct. Historical fact is no so easy to argue against - rather like Balaam kicking against the ox goads...

jerry kelso · Jun 5, 2016

nothead said:
So then yes, Hell mentioned in the Bible IS to put the Fear of God into man.

FEAR since all men fall short in sin...even though many atheists can do the social end of the Ten. This leaves the Shema, which normally CANNOT be done by men, and NEVER done by Atheists. To love God with ALL your heart soul and might THROUGHOUT your life is a NOTHING Command to an Atheist or Agnostic who does not RECOGNIZE God.

And so too the First Command of the Ten. To have no other elohim (gods) to the face of YHWH. However both JisG AND trins reject this one too.

So then FEAR oh men AND Jerry Lucas, Comedian to the Stars.

nothead,

1. Let me say this in a more understandable way.
I said the goodness of God leads man to repentance and this is the opposite of fear.
Putting the fear of God is what legalism tries to do with rules of do's and don'ts and not being who they are in Christ. This is why people growing up in legalistic churches do not follow God and leave church and God behind.
The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and this is the goodness of God because it is the message of salvation for the soul to be saved and live our purpose and destiny on this earth for the eternal after this life. Only one life twill' soon be past, Only what's done for Christ will last.

2. Being a witness for God is not about browbeating people over the head and scaring them into heaven. God is not responsible for the fall of man for Satan is the Father of lies and sin. People who blame God make him unjust and a cruel ogre and impeaches his character.

3. God is orchestrating the redemption plan to save man and Calvary is the focal point of love when the Father sent his Son to die for the sins of the whole world who didn't deserve grace, but God is a God of Grace.
Saul was going around killing christians and thought he was pleasing God to the law of Moses but God got his attention by the power of the light from heaven and he felt that power and knew he was doing wrong and was told what to do and God even gave him a messenger of Satan to buffet him which was through his sufferings for Christ and he did everything and gloried only in the cross. He made no excuse to fail God or that God was wrong in bringing fear into the picture because I am sure he had a little fear in him when he was struck down.

4. Jesus was going about doing good and said he came to seek and save that which was lost he wasn't preaching fire and brimstone all the time. It was mainly to the leaders of the jews who were really enemies of God and hypocrites and who were always trying to trap him and make him out like he was a servant of the devil such as accusing him of casting out devils by Beelzebub. He also said in the same passage that the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in the world to come Matthew 12:24-32.

5. I said that there are times that are appropriate for a message on hell in the correct way. It is not the overall theme to bring people to repentance. On the other hand some use the old testament law of the knowledge of sin and what people are without God to witness to people who are sinners especially atheists and agnostics etc.
The bible says the fool has said in their hearts there is no God. This means that atheists are usually trying to prove there is no God except maybe themselves.

6. People can be good moral people and do the social commandments as in not killing, stealing, coveting their neighbor etc. This will not save them and so they cannot truly love God.
Christians can be moral to the commandments but living by the ethic of the Mosaic law can cause christians to try and do the commandment in their own strength and not in the power of God and cause one to have condemnation by missing the mark when this happens. This is why Israel was in sin more than overcoming, cursed more than being blessed etc. This is not the best way to overcome because we have a covenant with better promises to overcome. It doesn't mean that it cannot come into play at sometime in one's christian life for Paul did all he could to mortify the members of his body so he wouldn't sin.
God's way is always better and this is why we have the new covenant because God had to complete the plan of redemption so all could be saved to the uttermost.

7. The Shema cannot be done by anyone but those who truly love Christ. The Shema is a nothing command to a sinner for they are not saved. It is a call to those who serve God and to the jews of that day as well because they were in a complete theocracy with rule by God only and not the heathen nations or governments.
All men have to be convicted of God by the Holy Spirit in order to come to him and God works through men but they need to act within the anointing in ministering to anyone. The anointing is what breaks the yoke.

8. Trinitarians do not have other God before the one true God. God wasn't talking about the Godhead but the false Gods of the heathens. I have already shown why this is but you don't want to believe and that is your choice.

9. People shouldn't fear the man who serves God like they should fear God even though many people can usually tell the difference between those who are really powerful in God more than others because they allow the anointing to flow through them.

10. Fear is not the vehicle to witness for God but at the same time people need to know the consequences and there is a time and place and a proper way to teach hell. For those who truly get saved understand how big and great God is and what he has saved them from and how much they need him and how God is loving in saving them from hell.
So you have to put into proper perspective of fear and hell and the difference between true holiness preaching and legalism and what the christian life is really about and the difference between law of Moses and the new testament of Christ in his blood of the new covenant and why it is important to understand the overall difference and why the new had to replace the old.

11. The preaching of hell in general is a vehicle to scare people so they will choose God and go to heaven and miss the bad place of everlasting fire but shouldn't be. Most people are never saved by these messages for they are not the true gospel even though it is a statement of fact for those who die without God. Preaching fear just to try and scare people into serving God is for the most part legalism and will not work and has been shown not to work.
Some go to the other extreme and never mention hell and that can be harmful as well in a different manner.

12. You don't need to be a nothead but you do need the mind of Christ for a better understanding and a sweeter attitude. Jerry Kelso

nothead · Jun 6, 2016

jerry kelso said:
nothead,

1. Let me say this in a more understandable way.
I said the goodness of God leads man to repentance and this is the opposite of fear.
Putting the fear of God is what legalism tries to do with rules of do's and don'ts and not being who they are in Christ. This is why people growing up in legalistic churches do not follow God and leave church and God behind.
The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and this is the goodness of God because it is the message of salvation for the soul to be saved and live our purpose and destiny on this earth for the eternal after this life. Only one life twill' soon be past, Only what's done for Christ will last.

2. Being a witness for God is not about browbeating people over the head and scaring them into heaven. God is not responsible for the fall of man for Satan is the Father of lies and sin. People who blame God make him unjust and a cruel ogre and impeaches his character.

3. God is orchestrating the redemption plan to save man and Calvary is the focal point of love when the Father sent his Son to die for the sins of the whole world who didn't deserve grace, but God is a God of Grace.
Saul was going around killing christians and thought he was pleasing God to the law of Moses but God got his attention by the power of the light from heaven and he felt that power and knew he was doing wrong and was told what to do and God even gave him a messenger of Satan to buffet him which was through his sufferings for Christ and he did everything and gloried only in the cross. He made no excuse to fail God or that God was wrong in bringing fear into the picture because I am sure he had a little fear in him when he was struck down.

4. Jesus was going about doing good and said he came to seek and save that which was lost he wasn't preaching fire and brimstone all the time. It was mainly to the leaders of the jews who were really enemies of God and hypocrites and who were always trying to trap him and make him out like he was a servant of the devil such as accusing him of casting out devils by Beelzebub. He also said in the same passage that the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in the world to come Matthew 12:24-32.

5. I said that there are times that are appropriate for a message on hell in the correct way. It is not the overall theme to bring people to repentance. On the other hand some use the old testament law of the knowledge of sin and what people are without God to witness to people who are sinners especially atheists and agnostics etc.
The bible says the fool has said in their hearts there is no God. This means that atheists are usually trying to prove there is no God except maybe themselves.

6. People can be good moral people and do the social commandments as in not killing, stealing, coveting their neighbor etc. This will not save them and so they cannot truly love God.
Christians can be moral to the commandments but living by the ethic of the Mosaic law can cause christians to try and do the commandment in their own strength and not in the power of God and cause one to have condemnation by missing the mark when this happens. This is why Israel was in sin more than overcoming, cursed more than being blessed etc. This is not the best way to overcome because we have a covenant with better promises to overcome. It doesn't mean that it cannot come into play at sometime in one's christian life for Paul did all he could to mortify the members of his body so he wouldn't sin.
God's way is always better and this is why we have the new covenant because God had to complete the plan of redemption so all could be saved to the uttermost.

7. The Shema cannot be done by anyone but those who truly love Christ. The Shema is a nothing command to a sinner for they are not saved. It is a call to those who serve God and to the jews of that day as well because they were in a complete theocracy with rule by God only and not the heathen nations or governments.
All men have to be convicted of God by the Holy Spirit in order to come to him and God works through men but they need to act within the anointing in ministering to anyone. The anointing is what breaks the yoke.

8. Trinitarians do not have other God before the one true God. God wasn't talking about the Godhead but the false Gods of the heathens. I have already shown why this is but you don't want to believe and that is your choice.

9. People shouldn't fear the man who serves God like they should fear God even though many people can usually tell the difference between those who are really powerful in God more than others because they allow the anointing to flow through them.

10. Fear is not the vehicle to witness for God but at the same time people need to know the consequences and there is a time and place and a proper way to teach hell. For those who truly get saved understand how big and great God is and what he has saved them from and how much they need him and how God is loving in saving them from hell.
So you have to put into proper perspective of fear and hell and the difference between true holiness preaching and legalism and what the christian life is really about and the difference between law of Moses and the new testament of Christ in his blood of the new covenant and why it is important to understand the overall difference and why the new had to replace the old.

11. The preaching of hell in general is a vehicle to scare people so they will choose God and go to heaven and miss the bad place of everlasting fire but shouldn't be. Most people are never saved by these messages for they are not the true gospel even though it is a statement of fact for those who die without God. Preaching fear just to try and scare people into serving God is for the most part legalism and will not work and has been shown not to work.
Some go to the other extreme and never mention hell and that can be harmful as well in a different manner.

12. You don't need to be a nothead but you do need the mind of Christ for a better understanding and a sweeter attitude. Jerry Kelso

I got to like your second line and STOP. A big mental hand was put right there in front of mine own eyeballs.

Wait WHAT? ImAllLikeOKWhat? Repentance isn't the opposite of FEAR. Repentance is DONE in fear. The peace of the Everlasting God is the opposite of fear. The PRODUCT of repentance is PEACE unless God does not grant it.

PEACE, brother. And Jesus told you he got a special place of PEACE just for you right there in heaven.

nothead · Jun 6, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
Hillsage is correct. Historical fact is no so easy to argue against - rather like Balaam kicking against the ox goads...

I am not making judgement. We say "The hell you say..." in the south since we just never heard it.

I don't mire myself much beyond the second gen saints' writings. This is too much mire to contend with.

jerry kelso · Jun 6, 2016

nothead said:
I got to like your second line and STOP. A big mental hand was put right there in front of mine own eyeballs.

Wait WHAT? ImAllLikeOKWhat? Repentance isn't the opposite of FEAR. Repentance is DONE in fear. The peace of the Everlasting God is the opposite of fear. The PRODUCT of repentance is PEACE unless God does not grant it.

PEACE, brother. And Jesus told you he got a special place of PEACE just for you right there in heaven.

nothead,

1. You have such a one track mind it is no wonder you can't exegete scripture.

2. Repentance is not about being done in fear. I repented and it was not about fear. The bible says the goodness of God leads men to repentance. There is no where stated that fear is in repentance.

3. If you are repenting in fear you are not wanting a real relationship with God you just want to escape. It doesn't mean that people who are bucking the system that they shouldn't have an element of fear. God told his own people how wicked they were and what they would suffer if they didn't repent. In Ezekiel he told the righteous if they didn't repent of their sin that they had committed then he would remember their righteousness no more and he would destroy them which was not what he wanted to do.

4. But as a whole of witnessing to the sinner is not about fear but about the goodness of the Lord and our purpose and destiny for this life and the need for the Savior being the reason that God loved us so much that he died for us while we were yet sinners and to give us eternal life. The Holy Spirit has to illuminate this truth and draw them to the Lord but they have to make a freewill choice to serve him.

5. The peace of God is the result from repentance.

6. You seem to be obsessed with legalistic, law keeping, bible thumpers who try to scare them into heaven.
So once again you are misled about the subject of hell and how it should be preached and when and why.
You really need to understand the difference between the old and the new covenant and why the new replaced the old and how they differ and why.
1 Timothy 1:6-7; Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
You ought not to project your opinions on what I am really saying and listen to what the scriptures say and mean in their proper perspective. Jerry kelso

nothead · Jun 6, 2016

jerry kelso said:
nothead,

1. You have such a one track mind it is no wonder you can't exegete scripture.

2. Repentance is not about being done in fear. I repented and it was not about fear. The bible says the goodness of God leads men to repentance. There is no where stated that fear is in repentance.

3. If you are repenting in fear you are not wanting a real relationship with God you just want to escape. It doesn't mean that people who are bucking the system that they shouldn't have an element of fear. God told his own people how wicked they were and what they would suffer if they didn't repent. In Ezekiel he told the righteous if they didn't repent of their sin that they had committed then he would remember their righteousness no more and he would destroy them which was not what he wanted to do.

4. But as a whole of witnessing to the sinner is not about fear but about the goodness of the Lord and our purpose and destiny for this life and the need for the Savior being the reason that God loved us so much that he died for us while we were yet sinners and to give us eternal life. The Holy Spirit has to illuminate this truth and draw them to the Lord but they have to make a freewill choice to serve him.

5. The peace of God is the result from repentance.

6. You seem to be obsessed with legalistic, law keeping, bible thumpers who try to scare them into heaven.
So once again you are misled about the subject of hell and how it should be preached and when and why.
You really need to understand the difference between the old and the new covenant and why the new replaced the old and how they differ and why.
1 Timothy 1:6-7; Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
You ought not to project your opinions on what I am really saying and listen to what the scriptures say and mean in their proper perspective. Jerry kelso

The beginning of wisdom is fear. The fear of God leads to more repentance. I don't have to plethorize all things like you. IN fact I read about two lines generally of yours and WAIT, I'm all ok WHAT, HUH?

Fear is the usual component OF repentance. This should be obvious to you, but NOOOOO....you cannot even get the first things sir.

Lazarus Short · Jun 6, 2016

nothead said:
The beginning of wisdom is fear. The fear of God leads to more repentance. I don't have to plethorize all things like you. IN fact I read about two lines generally of yours and WAIT, I'm all ok WHAT, HUH?

Fear is the usual component OF repentance. This should be obvious to you, but NOOOOO....you cannot even get the first things sir.

IIRC, fear is the beginning of wisdom, but I know for sure that perfect love casts out fear. So maybe begin with fear, and end with love, for God is Love. There - done in two lines, so you don't need to say, "WHAT, HUH?"

nothead · Jun 6, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
IIRC, fear is the beginning of wisdom, but I know for sure that perfect love casts out fear. So maybe begin with fear, and end with love, for God is Love. There - done in two lines, so you don't need to say, "WHAT, HUH?"

However which way you can get to God, sir. Jesus said you gotta go through him first sir. My stories are short and sweet too, sir.

I know that Hell was a big red flag at one time. That was partially since I wanted to justify my sinful nature. And partially since I wanted to see God as an old white-bearded grandfather in the sky. INSTEAD of a God who has a big old stick in His hand.

As I grow in relationship, I see God as a BEING with a stick hidden from me. No unconditional love, rather a God who is so awesome and respected that simple views of a child cannot contend. BECAUSE of the Stick I do try in the flesh to be good. But because of the SPIRIT I say "Take not thy Spirit from me YHWH." Else I BE in the same place David was when he murdered.

jerry kelso · Jun 6, 2016

nothead said:
The beginning of wisdom is fear. The fear of God leads to more repentance. I don't have to plethorize all things like you. IN fact I read about two lines generally of yours and WAIT, I'm all ok WHAT, HUH?

Fear is the usual component OF repentance. This should be obvious to you, but NOOOOO....you cannot even get the first things sir.

nothead,

1. The fear of God is not about being afraid it is of reverence. The subject was talking about using fear as a vehicle in preaching hell and trying to get them to be saved. Hell is not the gospel but the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. The scripture says the goodness of God leads men to repentance Romans 2:4.

2.Romans 2:4 was a continuation of Romans 1 that talked about the antediluvians who knew about God and did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient. These were are all unrighteous reprobates that were backbiters, haters of God, inventors of evil things,covenant breakers etc. who knew what their judgement was by and of God and that they were worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. This agrees with the statement Abraham made to the rich man in Luke 19 that even if the dead were to appear to warn his brothers they wouldn't believe if they didn't believe Moses law.

3. Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgement of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgement of God?
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

4. Sinners despise the cross because it is an offence to them and Jesus on the cross was the stumbling block for the jews as well and for all men who don't believe in the cross. The forbearance of God is mentioned in Romans 3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

5. Hell is not the gospel and is not what leads men to repentance as far as the cross is concerned. It is not the rule of thumb to use as a vehicle to get people to succumb to repentance. It has it's place and people need to know the consequences of where were and are headed as sinners but God made a way to escape but it is not the primary way to witness or is meant to be the emphasis to scare people into making a decision for God.
Even if one was to preach a message on hell they have to get the point across of the love of God for his salvation and grace to miss hell and they still have to be saved by the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection.
Do you not believe there is a hell? Jerry Kelso

nothead · Jun 6, 2016

jerry kelso said:
nothead,

1. The fear of God is not about being afraid it is of reverence. The subject was talking about using fear as a vehicle in preaching hell and trying to get them to be saved. Hell is not the gospel but the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. The scripture says the goodness of God leads men to repentance Romans 2:4.

2.Romans 2:4 was a continuation of Romans 1 that talked about the antediluvians who knew about God and did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient. These were are all unrighteous reprobates that were backbiters, haters of God, inventors of evil things,covenant breakers etc. who knew what their judgement was by and of God and that they were worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. This agrees with the statement Abraham made to the rich man in Luke 19 that even if the dead were to appear to warn his brothers they wouldn't believe if they didn't believe Moses law.

3. Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgement of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgement of God?
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

4. Sinners despise the cross because it is an offence to them and Jesus on the cross was the stumbling block for the jews as well and for all men who don't believe in the cross. The forbearance of God is mentioned in Romans 3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

5. Hell is not the gospel and is not what leads men to repentance as far as the cross is concerned. It is not the rule of thumb to use as a vehicle to get people to succumb to repentance. It has it's place and people need to know the consequences of where were and are headed as sinners but God made a way to escape but it is not the primary way to witness or is meant to be the emphasis to scare people into making a decision for God.
Even if one was to preach a message on hell they have to get the point across of the love of God for his salvation and grace to miss hell and they still have to be saved by the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection.
Do you not believe there is a hell? Jerry Kelso

As per usual I got to your first line and had to quit, sir. This DRIVEL was taught me for years in my AofG congregations.
Fear of God is VISCERAL fear and the TREMBLING Paul said PROVES it. And a fear instigated by the Holy Spirit is rather a fear of God, that his Holy JOY INDWELLING be taken away or gone for no apparent reason, just like my own writing mojo.
Like the Ruach of God, the WIND we only hear it as it goes past.

"Work out your salvation with fear and TREMBLING," sir. The TREMBLE in TREMBLING puts away your so-called hokey theology.

jerry kelso · Jun 7, 2016

nothead said:
As per usual I got to your first line and had to quit, sir. This DRIVEL was taught me for years in my AofG congregations.
Fear of God is VISCERAL fear and the TREMBLING Paul said PROVES it. And a fear instigated by the Holy Spirit is rather a fear of God, that his Holy JOY INDWELLING be taken away or gone for no apparent reason, just like my own writing mojo.
Like the Ruach of God, the WIND we only hear it as it goes past.

"Work out your salvation with fear and TREMBLING," sir. The TREMBLE in TREMBLING puts away your so-called hokey theology.

nothead,

1. You sound like a disgruntled denominational man.

2. I already told you the context of what was being spoken and what you were trying to infer to.

3. Your whole timbre of your attitude in your posts is about being disgruntled and filthy communication corrupts good manners. Some would be offended at a christian saying, the hell you say.

4. Why can't you just state your position plainly because you talk about being plain to understand. And why don't you give some scripture in the proper fashioned to be understood directly without trying to derogatory remarks that you think are short and sweet.

5. I don't mind someone with a different opinion but it is not right not to be fair. Show you know how to properly debate and rebut in a productive way or maybe you shouldn't say anything at all. Jerry Kelso

nothead · Jun 7, 2016

jerry kelso said:
nothead,

1. You sound like a disgruntled denominational man.

2. I already told you the context of what was being spoken and what you were trying to infer to.

3. Your whole timbre of your attitude in your posts is about being disgruntled and filthy communication corrupts good manners. Some would be offended at a christian saying, the hell you say.

4. Why can't you just state your position plainly because you talk about being plain to understand. And why don't you give some scripture in the proper fashioned to be understood directly without trying to derogatory remarks that you think are short and sweet.

5. I don't mind someone with a different opinion but it is not right not to be fair. Show you know how to properly debate and rebut in a productive way or maybe you shouldn't say anything at all. Jerry Kelso

Disgruntled? AofG is only 50% Spirit baptized. Their PASTORS may shout and huff about, but SECULAR they are becoming.
And not a ONE of them know Shema. How can I not be? NEXT they are gonna be as SECULAR as German Christians in the 1930's.

And don't ever THINK I didn't notice you could not ADDRESS the TREMBLE in "trembling" sir. Totally DOES AWAY with your "respect" dealybobber. I'll say...respect with GROVELING sir. And this to PAUL sir the REP of God just as Jesus was more so.

Lazarus Short · Jun 7, 2016

nothead said:
Disgruntled? AofG is only 50% Spirit baptized. Their PASTORS may shout and huff about, but SECULAR they are becoming.
And not a ONE of them know Shema. How can I not be? NEXT they are gonna be as SECULAR as German Christians in the 1930's.

And don't ever THINK I didn't notice you could not ADDRESS the TREMBLE in "trembling" sir. Totally DOES AWAY with your "respect" dealybobber. I'll say...respect with GROVELING sir. And this to PAUL sir the REP of God just as Jesus was more so.

Call me stoopid if you must, but what is "Shema"?

nothead · Jun 7, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
Call me stoopid if you must, but what is "Shema"?

Highest Law God ever gave. OUR God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Oh I cannot believe you don't KNOW it, sir. I refuse to believe anyone who posts like YOU don't know Shema.

Chriliman · Jun 7, 2016

nothead said:
Highest Law God ever gave. OUR God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Oh I cannot believe you don't KNOW it, sir. I refuse to believe anyone who posts like YOU don't know Shema.

He could have used google to look it up real quick and then pretend that he already knew what it meant. At least give him respect for humbly asking you what it means.

I'll be honest, I didn't know what it was either. Anyone who's willing to humble themselves and ask an honest question for the sake of learning and understanding, has a real heart for the Truth of God and those people deserve respect and love, not ridicule.

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