The happy Objectivist
Well-Known Member
How much is their fair share?If those in the U.S.A. making 250,000 and over, paid their share in taxes like the rest of us, we could easily have Universal Healthcare.
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How much is their fair share?If those in the U.S.A. making 250,000 and over, paid their share in taxes like the rest of us, we could easily have Universal Healthcare.
Usually, it's called the 'social contract'; as a member of a particular society you get certain benefits in return for having certain responsibilities. Typically, the minimum responsibility is to follow the laws and pay taxes to maintain the smooth functioning of society's infrastructure and services from which you benefit - trash collection, policing, security, roads, schools, etc. Some societies include extras like health services, some don't.The government takes the rightful property of some men by force and gives it to others in the form of healthcare. Society doesn't own anything, individuals within society do. There is no collective pie. There's my pie and your pie and some people don't produce any pie but instead rely on the government to take some of the others' pie and give it to them. Let's call it what it is.
As you probably know, it's not a contract that you sign - it's implicit; like the legal system, by living there you're assumed to accept it. But I guess if you don't like the rules of the society you're in, you can go elsewhere - if you can find somewhere to your taste and they'll let you in. That's the story of many refugees and asylum seekers.I've never seen this contract. I've been told about it but its terms seem to be vague and they seem to change all the time. A contract implies a choice, but as far as I can tell there isn't a choice, you are just told that you have agreed to it I guess by just being born. I don't think that anyone in their right mind should sign a contract in which the terms can be changed unilaterally. This notion of a social contract is a fiction. If I can't opt-out of it then it is not a contract. Calling it a contract is just a rationalization of theft.
One does not get things from society but from specific individuals and there is a rational mechanism to determine exactly what those things cost. It's called mutual trade to mutual benefit. I do not think life is about grabbing whatever you can get and then being an indentured servant for the rest of it. Life quite literally means productive achievement. One has an absolute right to what one produces and the right to dispose of it.
I have experience with toll roads and am not a fan.You're right that I don't build roads and parks just like I don't make shoes or cars. I don't need to own a whole road, I don't even need to own a sliver of it. It's much more efficient and practical to have others build those things and pay for what I need to use at a fair market price, just as I don't need to own a shoe factory but just pay for the shoes I need.
My leg got banged up pretty good in an accident a couple of months ago. Decided to have it looked at because it seemed the prudent thing to do. Got sent to the ER for an ultrasound for blood clots I didn't have and they did some x-rays. Got the bills which totaled over $4,000. But since I have low premium insurance through my employer and union. I only had to cover a $50 copay. I'd like to see it be that way or similar for everyone.
If it’s universal healthcare, that’s up to the people to decide (through out elected reps.). Presently, we have no say. If you take profit out of medicine and also subtract all of the administrative costs of insurance companies, eligibility, etc. that’s a TON of money that can go to those expensive meds. And a lot of those meds would drop in price, freeing up money for those that are genuinely expensive.
US Government ensures that US located companies don't employ children, pay wages, don't unfairly discriminate based on non-work related reasons, don't own the homes workers live in, and work in healthy and safe environments. All Social laws added to get you your shoes fairly.You're right that I don't build roads and parks just like I don't make shoes or cars. I don't need to own a whole road, I don't even need to own a sliver of it. It's much more efficient and practical to have others build those things and pay for what I need to use at a fair market price, just as I don't need to own a shoe factory but just pay for the shoes I need.
It's not implicit. It's completely incompatible with human nature. Rather than leave, I'd want to fix what is wrong and improve. I'd want to correct the errors of the founders. I am not willing to let America go. I think it can still be saved and it can be a shining beacon to the rest of the world. That will take nothing less than a complete moral and political revolution. There is nowhere else to go. If I could I'd leave Earth and start a new civilization founded on and dedicated to individual rights but this time with a moral code to match the brilliant political philosophy of the founders.As you probably know, it's not a contract that you sign - it's implicit; like the legal system, by living there you're assumed to accept it. But I guess if you don't like the rules of the society you're in, you can go elsewhere - if you can find somewhere to your taste and they'll let you in. That's the story of many refugees and asylum seekers.
None of this addresses what I had written. It's not the government's job to do the things that you list, it's mine.US Government ensures that US located companies don't employ children, pay wages, don't unfairly discriminate based on non-work related reasons, don't own the homes workers live in, and work in healthy and safe environments. All Social laws added to get you your shoes fairly.
Why wouldn't you want to own stock in your shoe company? It's the socialist thing to do.
It's not implicit. It's completely incompatible with human nature. Rather than leave, I'd want to fix what is wrong and improve. I'd want to correct the errors of the founders. I am not willing to let America go. I think it can still be saved and it can be a shining beacon to the rest of the world. That will take nothing less than a complete moral and political revolution. There is nowhere else to go. If I could I'd leave Earth and start a new civilization founded on and dedicated to individual rights but this time with a moral code to match the brilliant political philosophy of the founders.
This is my country and I believe in her, and I believe in her flag, and I’ll defend her, and I’ll fight for her and serve her. If she has any ills, I’ll stand by her and hold her hand until in God’s given time, through her wisdom and her consideration for the welfare of the entire nation, things are made right again.
Children are used and traded as sex slaves.None of this addresses what I had written. It's not the government's job to do the things that you list, it's mine.
US located companies don't employ children, pay wages, don't unfairly discriminate based on non-work related reasons, don't own the homes workers live in, and work in healthy and safe environments.
I think it is - the key rules and norms may be codified in explicit laws, constitutions, & declarations, but it is generally understood that in a given society, you are expected to follow both the rules and the social norms & mores; "When in Rome..."It's not implicit.
It's a product of human nature; when humans form groups they establish behavioural rules and norms; when a group holds territory, the rules and norms are applied to all within the territory.It's completely incompatible with human nature.
Sure, that's an option - if the political or authoritarian structure and organisation realistically allow that; alternatively, insurrection or civil war...Rather than leave, I'd want to fix what is wrong and improve. I'd want to correct the errors of the founders.
I do not have a problem with rules and regulations. If this social contract sanctions the initiation of force, then it is not moral and is not valid and does not have to be complied with. The answer is not to throw up one's hands and say well you can't fight city hall. The answer is to fight the immorality. Do you, Frumious, sanction the initiation of force?I think it is - the key rules and norms may be codified in explicit laws, constitutions, & declarations, but it is generally understood that in a given society, you are expected to follow both the rules and the social norms & mores; "When in Rome..."
It's a product of human nature; when humans form groups they establish behavioural rules and norms; when a group holds territory, the rules and norms are applied to all within the territory.
Sure, that's an option - if the political or authoritarian structure and organisation realistically allow that; alternatively, insurrection or civil war...
I meant that it is not the governments job to provide me with roads and parks and you pulled a switcheroo on me and changed to child trafficking. That's what I meant when I said that it is not the government's job to do those things for me, it's mine. Of course, it's the government's job to protect children from sex trafficking. That is one of the legitimate functions of a government. Child trafficking involves the initiation of force, does it not?Children are used and traded as sex slaves.
I'm afraid I must fire you as negligent in this matter.
Children are also raped by family members and friends.
Again, you have failed.
Lately people are driving into and though intersections on a red light
at high speeds. Because I have to deal with this daily, I'd have to curse your incompetence.
These are not problems in North Korea. I am firing you on all counts.
Your management of societies problems is failing.
So you trade this park that you like for the principle that the initiation of force is OK. It's just such concrete bound, range of the moment thinking of the anti-conceptual mentality that has destroyed countries throughout history and is in the process of destroying my country now. When They come for religion to ban it because the majority think it's wrong and harmful, what will you say. You've abandoned the principle of individual rights. I know that you probably don't see the connection between the two and that's a trajedy. I do. The Germans didn't start out killing millons of people in concentration camps. They started with confiscating business and censoring speech which is happening right now all over the world under the guys of this virus.I have experience with toll roads and am not a fan.
I have experience with (Paid) parks and I'm a fan, but $15 per person is a rare event. Plus no dogs.
I have experience with free parks and have run my dog with my bicycle 300 or so days in a year.
Free parks and free roads add a lot of freedom to life. Well worth the cost to society.
This is near my house.
My house is on the curved drive on the lower left.
I meant that it is not the governments job to provide me with roads and parks and you pulled a switcheroo on me and changed to child trafficking.
It depends on the situation. Personally, I think force or violence should be avoided wherever possible. Sadly, not everyone agrees, and outside of explicit rules & laws, judgement on when force should or should not be used is subjective.Do you, Frumious, sanction the initiation of force?
I've never seen this contract. I've been told about it but its terms seem to be vague and they seem to change all the time.