Universal Healthcare for all

[SkyWriting]

Some current medications can be tens, of thousands per month, and with DNA research it may be possible to spend 100's of thousands for medication for one person. Are there any lines to draw on how much we will spend on healthcare and will we make it universal for every person in the world to spend all the resources possible we have on everyone? Even on Trump Supporters? Or Democrats? Or Muslims?

 

[spiritfilledjm]

If it could be done without giving up the freedoms of medical choice and not having to sacrifice other freedoms, sure. However, if countries with universal healthcare already are an indication, the government uses the healthcare to pass more laws that, at best, restrict freedom of choice for medical decisions and at worst, take away other freedoms.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Even if done completely right it is very expensive (like how the Scandinavians do it. Those countries have nationalized oil assets and small defense budgets, strict immigration.) And there is how we manage this country with semi open borders defacto open borders, granting citizenship to Dreamers etc. At our rate we would be paying for the health care of nut just ourselves but probably 1/3 of central American and south America .


It should also be pointed out that you can't have everything when it comes to health care. There are at least three dimensions that everybody wants and one of them has to go: 1) quality, 2) availability, 3) Low cost. Right now he we have great health care for folks that can afford it, or don't mind having debts etc. we do the research and invention for most of the World when it comes to the next handy gadget or drug. IF we did this, we would simply have a universal mediocre system that would benefit some people but all that incentive to keep on inventing new stuff to deal with new problems would go out the window and we would just be another country with socialized medicine and our research would mostly stagnate for ourselves and the rest of the world as we put in price controls and take away research incentives.



And of course it fair to bring up how we unlike other countries are the main force at keeping hostile countries from taking over the world.... A problem that even Trump wanted to start to solve, since we are not even doing basic maintenance on some of our own infrastructure, and will see that collapse in the coming decades, especially bridges and our internet system needs major overhauls.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

It seems like we should be able to provide basic medical care universally. I am just not sure where the line is crossed into "more than basic medical care."

 

[Ceallaigh]

My leg got banged up pretty good in an accident a couple of months ago. Decided to have it looked at because it seemed the prudent thing to do. Got sent to the ER for an ultrasound for blood clots I didn't have and they did some x-rays. Got the bills which totaled over $4,000. But since I have low premium insurance through my employer and union. I only had to cover a $50 copay. I'd like to see it be that way or similar for everyone.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Universal healthcare would need to be viewed as a public good rather than a private privilege. I do have two suggestions.

Overall, I believe in the Pareto principle, where 80% of problems probably cost 20%. By providing better primary and basic non-emergency care and trying to educate people on where they should go in certain situations, we could help reduce the cost of health care. Of course this means expanding or extending hours for various clinics and primary care offices. So when our daughter was having stomach issues at 11pm, we HAD to go to the ER rather than a clinic. There was no other choice. However, due to misdiagnosis, and THREE years later, an ER doc did decide to do exploratory surgery and discovered that her appendix had a long "tail" and was inflamed rubbing up against something. No one would make that call.

Second, is that if you do go to the ER, they cannot outsource care to a non-network provider. This would prevent the surprise medical bill, where someone goes to the ER and only a month later finds out that the MRI they got was done by a 3rd party and now they have a $20,000 bill in the mailbox.

 

[Ceallaigh]

For the public good is the idea. Like police and firefighters. Imagine a widow being charged by the police to find the killer of her husband.

 

[pitabread]

However, if countries with universal healthcare already are an indication, the government uses the healthcare to pass more laws that, at best, restrict freedom of choice for medical decisions and at worst, take away other freedoms.

[citations needed]

Also, if you're going to play the freedom card, note that the U.S. is currently ranked #20 on the Economic Freedom Index, below a number of other countries that have universal health coverage: Country Rankings: World & Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom

Likewise, the U.S. is ranked #17 on the Human Freedom Index (based on 2018 data), again below a number of other countries with universal health care: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/human-freedom-index-2020.pdf

 

[Sparagmos]

Some current medications can be tens, of thousands per month, and with DNA research it may be possible to spend 100's of thousands for medication for one person. Are there any lines to draw on how much we will spend on healthcare and will we make it universal for every person in the world to spend all the resources possible we have on everyone? Even on Trump Supporters? Or Democrats? Or Muslims?

If it’s universal healthcare, that’s up to the people to decide (through out elected reps.). Presently, we have no say. If you take profit out of medicine and also subtract all of the administrative costs of insurance companies, eligibility, etc. that’s a TON of money that can go to those expensive meds. And a lot of those meds would drop in price, freeing up money for those that are genuinely expensive.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Some current medications can be tens, of thousands per month, and with DNA research it may be possible to spend 100's of thousands for medication for one person. Are there any lines to draw on how much we will spend on healthcare and will we make it universal for every person in the world to spend all the resources possible we have on everyone? Even on Trump Supporters? Or Democrats? Or Muslims?

Basic health care is a human right and so there is a limit (that is going above however one defines "basic"). Their political or religious affiliation has nothing to do with it though.

 

[Blade]

My leg got banged up pretty good in an accident a couple of months ago. Decided to have it looked at because it seemed the prudent thing to do. Got sent to the ER for an ultrasound for blood clots I didn't have and they did some x-rays. Got the bills which totaled over $4,000. But since I have low premium insurance through my employer and union. I only had to cover a $50 copay. I'd like to see it be that way or similar for everyone.

Nice! The $50 copay . Before Obama care kicked in we were paying $25. Then right after Obama care $1500..now its $2000 up front. HAHA we has so many to choose from and that was the best HELLO! Praise GOD glory to JESUS by His strips we were healed.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

For the public good is the idea. Like police and firefighters. Imagine a widow being charged by the police to find the killer of her husband.

Or a Fire Department bill for saving your house.

 

[SkyWriting]

Basic health care is a human right and so there is a limit (that is going above however one defines "basic"). Their political or religious affiliation has nothing to do with it though.

Well, it's not a right. People live in the wilderness by choice.
People travel to the wilderness by choice. They ain't got no right to basic nothin.
People cross the oceans on canoes. No basic nothing exists anywhere for them.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Well, it's not a right. People live in the wilderness by choice.
People travel to the wilderness by choice. They ain't got no right to basic nothin.
People cross the oceans on canoes. No basic nothing exists anywhere for them.

I have no idea what your conception of a "right" is. A person who travels into the wilderness to me still has a right to not be murdered. Whether or not that happens to them or if it can be enforced is separate from the idea itself, for a right in this context is simply a duty we owe to others by God's Law. All human persons have a duty to not murder others/all human persons have a right to not be murdered. When I say "basic healthcare is a right" I mean all human persons have a duty to provide for the well-being of others, their preservation of life, etc, and all human persons have a right to receive this no matter what. It's a reverse way of saying the same thing. Whether or not a person gets this is separate from the duty, just like we all have a duty to pray daily but whether or not it is done is separate from what should be done.

 

[Gene2memE]

Even if done completely right it is very expensive (like how the Scandinavians do it. Those countries have nationalized oil assets and small defense budgets, strict immigration.)

The US spends more per person on healthcare than any of the Scandinavian states - by a substantial margin.

The Scandinavian states are a mixed bag when it comes to immigration - generally speaking they have higher rates of immigration per capita than the US, but lower shares of foreign born population. Mostly because of freedom of movement with Europe - other Europeans move there for a while, and then move elsewhere. Whereas once your in the US, that's pretty much it for most people.

And there is how we manage this country with semi open borders defacto open borders, granting citizenship to Dreamers etc. At our rate we would be paying for the health care of nut just ourselves but probably 1/3 of central American and south America .

Rubbish. "Semi open borders defacto open borders" is a fiction (also nonsensical).

The illegal immigrant population in the US is either static or declining. And has been so since about 2008. It's probably down by about 1.1 to 1.4 million on its mid 2000s peak.

The legal immigrant population in the US is climbing - mostly thanks to naturalisations - but the intake has been capped for five years now and the growth rate is slowing.

The biggest growth in immigration is by temporary foreign labour. The number of temporary work visas for foreign nationals jumped massively in the past decade. In the second term of the Obama administration, temporary foreign worker numbers in the US grew by about 50%, to just over 2 million. By the second last year of the Trump administration (no data available for 2020), just under 3.2 million temporary workers were in the US.

The majority of these were for cheap(er) labour from China, India and Mexico. About 1/2 of them end up in four states: California, New York, Texas and Florida.

In a sense, the US has just replaced one source of cheap foreign labour (illegal immigrants), with another source of cheap foreign labour (legal immigrants on temporary work visas).

 

[Ceallaigh]

Nice! The $50 copay . Before Obama care kicked in we were paying $25. Then right after Obama care $1500..now its $2000 up front. HAHA we has so many to choose from and that was the best HELLO! Praise GOD glory to JESUS by His strips we were healed.

Before Obamacare I had a $300 yearly deductible and the rest was free, no premium or copay. My employer fought to keep it that way but in 2011 had to finally offer us a horrible plan. High premium, high deductible and covered about 50% of the bill. I went without coverage until 2017 when my employer joined a union. Then because of the union we got this incredibly good plan. The whole system seems totally ridiculous to me. Not to mention scary and said. I'm hoping this plan holds out. Or I'll have wait until I'm old enough for medicare or whatever.

 

[SkyWriting]

When I say "basic healthcare is a right" I mean all human persons have a duty to provide for the well-being of others, their preservation of life, etc, and all human persons have a right to receive this no matter what.

We can be confident you don't follow this in your life and we trust your judgment.
You don't supply this because you don't believe it. Am I wrong in saying you didn't lift a finger for somebody who was dying in the last 24 hours?

Are you in the healthcare field?

"Each day, 22 people die waiting for a life-saving organ transplant and a new name is added to the transplant waiting list every 10 minutes. Currently, there are more than 100,000 people waiting for a second chance." Fast Facts: April - June 2021

 

[Abaxvahl]

We can be confident you don't follow this in your life and we trust your judgment.
You don't supply this because you don't believe it. Am I wrong in saying you didn't lift a finger for somebody who was dying in the last 24 hours?

You are and if you think that every individual has to provide the defense of rights for every other person for that right to be valid you have completely missed the point of God's Law and morality, but such is to be expected. I have no idea how you live either if you failed to understand that.

 

[SkyWriting]

You are and if you think that every individual has to provide the defense of rights for every other person for that right to be valid you have completely missed the point of God's Law and morality, but such is to be expected. I have no idea how you live either if you failed to understand that.

I've been in healthcare and am in about 20 health provider offices each day and some days twice.
Healthcare is not a basic right for anybody. I can check and ask tomorrow if you need me to ask. Also my wife was disabled from age 9 and never walked again. So I have some experience from the publics view as well. So now you have a hint of how I've lived.

 

[Abaxvahl]

I've been in healthcare and am in about 20 health provider offices each day and some days twice.
Healthcare is not a basic right for anybody. I can check and ask tomorrow if you need me to ask.

What is and what should be are two different things. I am saying that it is in fact a basic duty that the state should provide for those it is responsible for based on God's Law. I am not saying that this is done currently everywhere. People shouldn't murder, but they do. States shouldn't enter into unjust wars, but they do. Everyone should be Christlike, but they aren't. There is a difference.