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Understanding the Sabbath
- Thread starter k4c
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pmarquette
Well-Known Member
Jesus said the " sabbath " is for man , not God ....
for fellowship with God ,
to rest body after a 72+ hr. work week
to do the work of God - preach , teach , heal , deliver
to recharge spiritually
By the sacrament / ordinance / impartation of the Holy Spirit ;
the Lord of the sabbath is within us ... that perhaps
10% of our words , actions , thoughts , work , deeds each
day should be His ; that a time each day to honor the sabbath
should be given ....
Jews celebrate on the last day of the week Saturday, to Honor the father
We celebrate on the first day of the week to honor the work of the Son
We walk each day with His spirit ...
who says you are limited to just one day ; our catholic brothers celebrate
365+ days a year ; one saturday and 2 sunday services ; many protestant
brethren have 2 sunday services ....
fair enough ?
for fellowship with God ,
to rest body after a 72+ hr. work week
to do the work of God - preach , teach , heal , deliver
to recharge spiritually
By the sacrament / ordinance / impartation of the Holy Spirit ;
the Lord of the sabbath is within us ... that perhaps
10% of our words , actions , thoughts , work , deeds each
day should be His ; that a time each day to honor the sabbath
should be given ....
Jews celebrate on the last day of the week Saturday, to Honor the father
We celebrate on the first day of the week to honor the work of the Son
We walk each day with His spirit ...
who says you are limited to just one day ; our catholic brothers celebrate
365+ days a year ; one saturday and 2 sunday services ; many protestant
brethren have 2 sunday services ....
fair enough ?
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Do you believe a Christian has the right to choose If they want to worship on the Sabbath? Christian liberty etc. I am a Sunday keeper but I have no problem with a Sabbath keeping Christian if they respect my right to worship on Sunday with out beating me about the head and shoulders with a legal requirement that passed at the cross.pmarquette said:
I am a marine engineer{ unlicensed, means I make the coffee, always}turbine and desiel. I help make the big star looking thingy on the back of the boat go round and round so we can move through the water. what kind of engineer are you?
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It is a glorious rest.
We need to labor to enter into it.
When we are in it we stay in it 24/7.
That's the sabbath rest I want!
That's the sabbath rest created for us.
Just rest--relax--God has it all handled---the day---the things you will face today---the food you will eat---Slow down---Talk to him right now---the world and it's cares melt away and you enter in---to his rest.
Who cares which day it is when you are in that rest with him---bring on Monday!!!!!
We need to labor to enter into it.
When we are in it we stay in it 24/7.
That's the sabbath rest I want!
That's the sabbath rest created for us.
Just rest--relax--God has it all handled---the day---the things you will face today---the food you will eat---Slow down---Talk to him right now---the world and it's cares melt away and you enter in---to his rest.
Who cares which day it is when you are in that rest with him---bring on Monday!!!!!
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I can tell you now that God cares which day you worship on. The first day of the week or any other day apart from the the Sabbath/seventh day has never been blessed, sanctified or made holy by God.
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deu58
Senior Veteran
hi SymesSymes said:
I really am not sure. I was answering his post and when I went to submit I got a this thread has been closed message. When I got back to the page there was this big warning saying you had to be a Christian to post on this page. He sent me a mail link.
but as to the content of his message there was nothing really.just information on how to get a hold of him. I wanted to check this guy out because he seemed really decent.
considering all the stuff thats been posted some pretty serious personal attacks, william the goat sacrificer, he has started a new thread on circumcision and its a real winner. Johns posts have always been non agressive and polite. if they were were worried about non christian practice I would think claiming that christians need to sacrifice like Abraham did should have got william booted but no. the wife read one of his post and she really wanted to know more about Him. Me to really. From what I can see they zapped all his posts here. I tried to post my address and they left the post
but zapped the address.
Ok I just got a private message from john. Apparently he does not agree with their creed so they booted him.
yours in Christ
deu58
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adam332
Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t
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Deu,
in response to my allegations that you were being sneaky/deceitful with the un-contextual manner that you quoted Ignatius, you said .
I posted where you could read the entire discourse for your self due to to the fact that the article is rather long. Do you really wish me to post the entire chapter?
Did I ask for the entire article, no. I only expected you to tell the whole story instead of making false statements based on a very limited amount of his dissertation. You limited your quote in effort to make your statement SEEM accurate. Here is what you originally maintained about Ignatiuss beliefs in his epistle to the Magnesians .
You said (post #74);
Why would his own student . discourage Christians from keeping the Jewish Sabbath?
Is your statement accurate? No.
Have you yet admitted your error in regards to this statement? No.
Did Ignatius discourage Christians from keeping the Jewish Sabbath. No.
Did Ignatius teach that Christians should keep the Sabbath? Yes.
What did Ignatius actually teach Christians in regards to the Sabbath? That they should not keep it in the Jewish MANNER, but instead in a SPIRITUAL manner.
Did the Lord ever intend the Sabbath to be kept in the manner that the Jews had determined in their Mishnah? No.
Did the Lord always intend the Sabbath to be kept in a spiritual manner and not a legalistic one? Yes.
Was your un-contextual quote, and statement about Ignatiuss writing, deceiving? Yes.
__________
__________
You said;
Romans 14 deals with several issues, He uses the same basic teaching stlyle that he used in 1 Cor 6:19. ..So to with Rom.14. They only people who really do not believe that this includes the Sabbath is Sabbath keepers themselves. I am not a Sabbath keeper so why should I interpret this different than any other non Sabbath Christian? Especially when taken with the Statements such as these.
I truly applaud this rebuttal. Its conclusion is inaccurate, but you are the first I have encountered to try to take it in the right direction.
What we have, by Paul in Rom. 14, is a Biblical principal that he used on two specific subjects, significance of specific days, and meats sacrificed to idols. This principal, as you have pointed out, can be applied to other subjects as well. The question is; what subjects?
In order to determine this, we must determine 1.what the principal is, and 2.what criteria must the subject have in order to apply this principal. That said lets find these answers and see if you have done this in your application on this particular subject.
There is only one problem, this is only examples of the principal and examples the subject criteria. Since we only have examples and not direct Biblical instruction on these things we must use these examples to discern their definition.
The principal;
Re: Eating or not eating meat, sacrificed to idols, let each be convinced in his own mind.
Re: Importance or un-importance of these days, let each be convinced in his own mind.
Obviously this is the principal behind both of these issues let each be convinced in his own mind, for either way the person chose was considered alright.
The subject criteria;
Re: The subject of the meats God had given no instruction either way.
Re: The subject of the days God had given no instruction either way.
It is also the obvious nature of the principal, which tells us that Paul did not see either side of these issues to be in contrast with Godly instruction. If it had, he surely would not have applied the principle that they could choose whatever they felt like.
So, the principal should be applicable to anything that fits within the parameters of the subject criteria. Now, the question of course would be; Does the Sabbath fit within the subject criteria, thus allowing this principal to be applied to it?. The answer is plainly . no.
Paul kept the Sabbath with Jews and Gentiles (Acts 13.14, 42, 44; 14.1; 16.13; 17.2; 18.4). He, himself, lived in obedience to the laws of the Old Covenant (Acts 21.24; 23.6-1 25.8; 26.5). He spoke and taught positively about the Ten Commandments, which included the Sabbath command (Rom. 2.13, 26; 7.7, 12, 14, 22).
Paul instructed from the ten commands and never did he or any Biblical author discount any of them as no longer being commanded by God.
Now, you might feel that this last statement as being incorrect due to your interpretation on other passages which you mention further on in your reply. If your assertions on these other areas of scripture were correct, it would void mine, thus making the Sabbath as fulfilling the subject criteria and thereby applicable to the Biblical principal found in Rom. 14. So, we must press on discerning which of our assertions or correct. If yours are not correct, then this principal cannot be applied to the Sabbath. If mine are not correct, then this principal can be applied to the Sabbath. Agreed?
Since the determining factor of this passage is only to be known after we have seen whose assertions are Biblically founded about the other passages, it should have come at the end of your reply. But I have decided to answer your reply in order, so just realize that Rom. 14 can only be used against the Sabbath if there are passages revealing that it falls within the subject criteria FIRST. I hope your with me so far???
________
________
Please wait to respond until I have the time to finish discussing the other areas you have mentioned. It will probably be tomorrow night. This will give me time to catch up thank you.
in response to my allegations that you were being sneaky/deceitful with the un-contextual manner that you quoted Ignatius, you said .
I posted where you could read the entire discourse for your self due to to the fact that the article is rather long. Do you really wish me to post the entire chapter?
Did I ask for the entire article, no. I only expected you to tell the whole story instead of making false statements based on a very limited amount of his dissertation. You limited your quote in effort to make your statement SEEM accurate. Here is what you originally maintained about Ignatiuss beliefs in his epistle to the Magnesians .
You said (post #74);
Why would his own student . discourage Christians from keeping the Jewish Sabbath?
Is your statement accurate? No.
Have you yet admitted your error in regards to this statement? No.
Did Ignatius discourage Christians from keeping the Jewish Sabbath. No.
Did Ignatius teach that Christians should keep the Sabbath? Yes.
What did Ignatius actually teach Christians in regards to the Sabbath? That they should not keep it in the Jewish MANNER, but instead in a SPIRITUAL manner.
Did the Lord ever intend the Sabbath to be kept in the manner that the Jews had determined in their Mishnah? No.
Did the Lord always intend the Sabbath to be kept in a spiritual manner and not a legalistic one? Yes.
Was your un-contextual quote, and statement about Ignatiuss writing, deceiving? Yes.
__________
__________
You said;
Romans 14 deals with several issues, He uses the same basic teaching stlyle that he used in 1 Cor 6:19. ..So to with Rom.14. They only people who really do not believe that this includes the Sabbath is Sabbath keepers themselves. I am not a Sabbath keeper so why should I interpret this different than any other non Sabbath Christian? Especially when taken with the Statements such as these.
I truly applaud this rebuttal. Its conclusion is inaccurate, but you are the first I have encountered to try to take it in the right direction.
What we have, by Paul in Rom. 14, is a Biblical principal that he used on two specific subjects, significance of specific days, and meats sacrificed to idols. This principal, as you have pointed out, can be applied to other subjects as well. The question is; what subjects?
In order to determine this, we must determine 1.what the principal is, and 2.what criteria must the subject have in order to apply this principal. That said lets find these answers and see if you have done this in your application on this particular subject.
There is only one problem, this is only examples of the principal and examples the subject criteria. Since we only have examples and not direct Biblical instruction on these things we must use these examples to discern their definition.
The principal;
Re: Eating or not eating meat, sacrificed to idols, let each be convinced in his own mind.
Re: Importance or un-importance of these days, let each be convinced in his own mind.
Obviously this is the principal behind both of these issues let each be convinced in his own mind, for either way the person chose was considered alright.
The subject criteria;
Re: The subject of the meats God had given no instruction either way.
Re: The subject of the days God had given no instruction either way.
It is also the obvious nature of the principal, which tells us that Paul did not see either side of these issues to be in contrast with Godly instruction. If it had, he surely would not have applied the principle that they could choose whatever they felt like.
So, the principal should be applicable to anything that fits within the parameters of the subject criteria. Now, the question of course would be; Does the Sabbath fit within the subject criteria, thus allowing this principal to be applied to it?. The answer is plainly . no.
Paul kept the Sabbath with Jews and Gentiles (Acts 13.14, 42, 44; 14.1; 16.13; 17.2; 18.4). He, himself, lived in obedience to the laws of the Old Covenant (Acts 21.24; 23.6-1 25.8; 26.5). He spoke and taught positively about the Ten Commandments, which included the Sabbath command (Rom. 2.13, 26; 7.7, 12, 14, 22).
Paul instructed from the ten commands and never did he or any Biblical author discount any of them as no longer being commanded by God.
Now, you might feel that this last statement as being incorrect due to your interpretation on other passages which you mention further on in your reply. If your assertions on these other areas of scripture were correct, it would void mine, thus making the Sabbath as fulfilling the subject criteria and thereby applicable to the Biblical principal found in Rom. 14. So, we must press on discerning which of our assertions or correct. If yours are not correct, then this principal cannot be applied to the Sabbath. If mine are not correct, then this principal can be applied to the Sabbath. Agreed?
Since the determining factor of this passage is only to be known after we have seen whose assertions are Biblically founded about the other passages, it should have come at the end of your reply. But I have decided to answer your reply in order, so just realize that Rom. 14 can only be used against the Sabbath if there are passages revealing that it falls within the subject criteria FIRST. I hope your with me so far???
________
________
Please wait to respond until I have the time to finish discussing the other areas you have mentioned. It will probably be tomorrow night. This will give me time to catch up thank you.
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Jeffery Loyd
Are you saying that John broke these two rules as well as not being Christian?
I am sorry, but just do not see how he has broken the rules. Can you give us the type of post he made that broke the rules please?
Are you saying that John broke these two rules as well as not being Christian?
I am sorry, but just do not see how he has broken the rules. Can you give us the type of post he made that broke the rules please?
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solar_mirth
no i don't like star wars
well, it's been quite some time since i've posted on one of these forums, so forgive me if i am restating something discussed earlier.
paul wrote in hebrews 4 that God renamed the sabbath calling it Today, meaning that for the chosen of God (christians) the sabbath was to be a continual experience. in the old testament, God is very concerned with ritual and form. the Law itself is all about trying to keep God's commands and in a way, earn one's purity through ceremonial purification (which paul later writes about in hebrews 9). they are given a reprieve from this hard work on the sabbath. it's the one day where God says, "just take it easy and I will be pleased with you." in the new testament, there is a new covenant sealed by the blood of christ. this covenant takes the focus off of ceremony. no longer do men have to work for their salvation. therefore, we now rest in the work of christ. we don't have to do many of the things of the old testament because christ did them for us and we can now rest everyday, as God commanded.
that's just what i've always been taught.
paul wrote in hebrews 4 that God renamed the sabbath calling it Today, meaning that for the chosen of God (christians) the sabbath was to be a continual experience. in the old testament, God is very concerned with ritual and form. the Law itself is all about trying to keep God's commands and in a way, earn one's purity through ceremonial purification (which paul later writes about in hebrews 9). they are given a reprieve from this hard work on the sabbath. it's the one day where God says, "just take it easy and I will be pleased with you." in the new testament, there is a new covenant sealed by the blood of christ. this covenant takes the focus off of ceremony. no longer do men have to work for their salvation. therefore, we now rest in the work of christ. we don't have to do many of the things of the old testament because christ did them for us and we can now rest everyday, as God commanded.
that's just what i've always been taught.
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Because He is a God who cares. The Israelites went into captivity because they did not care about God's commandments. If we do not care about His commandments we will go into eternal captivity, the "lake of fire, prepared for the devil and those that love him" That is those who choose to break God's commandments.
"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy...."
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Dear Adamadam332 said:
And I truly applaud your rebuttal. You have listed with detail every point you disagree
with in detail and now I have something to work with besides sarcasm and character asassination. This is not a goad I truly mean it. If you would have simply stated why you disagreed with me and challenged me to prove why I beleive Ignatius is relevant I would have gladly done so. And I shall. If you disagree with me just ask me to prove my point further and I will do the best I can to do so. Actually I believed I provided enough information to form an objective opinion. Perhaps due to my own bias I thuoght the point was rather plain and simple. It would be to a non sabbathkeeper. It was lack of fore thought on my part. No dishonesty or hoping to slip one by you was ever intended
I value my honesty and Integrity just as much as you value yours. With out it, you have no true witness. People can understand mistakes in interpretation, even people much more qualified than you or I and who truly love the lord have made mistakes.
But no person could or should abide a person who lies or intentionaly misrepresents the truth on any matter. And to do so with the Scripture is deadly to the person who does this. I believe this qualifies as blasphemey of the Holy Spirit.
2co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
Another point I would like to clarify is one of you made a statement " should we let deu be the authority on this?". For the record I do not consider myself an authority,I consider myself to be one who is under authority. I have not been called to be a teacher.
Jas 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation
My only calling is the simple calling that applies to every Christian beleiver.
1pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
This I believe is my calling. When this was written, and for along time after, this could be done by simple people using the bible alone. In our time things are not so simple anymore. Science is lord and people want facts backed by scientific and historical data. Thus we are forced to use sources from outside the scripture. I do not like it either but if everything was how we wanted it to be then for me Jesus would already be here and all these arguments would be settled and in the past.
One question I would like to ask and then hopefully we can stop dredging past history.
Why did you accuse me of purposly misrepresenting Scripture and history that could lead to harming new believers, with out really finding out why I held such a beleif, And you did not reprove William for saying we need to follow Abraham, including the animal sacrifices to be in obediance to God? This was the thing that angered me the most and made feel you were doing to me the very same things you were accusing me of doing. May be you missed the part where he aknowledges he still sacrifices for it was only mentioned in passing.
If you wish to see how I deal with new believers, on the denial of the Holocaust thread I posted a man who has only been a Christian less than 2 weeks. He made a statement that I felt was bad taste so I made mention of it. We had a conversation that consisted of I believe three postings to each other. The mans screen name is bonhoffer. As you have said ,We do not know each other and the only way we can get a better understanding of each others belief system is to look at each others posts
on the other the other threads. I notice you get around a little to. I saw one of your posts on the grapejuice thread and I see you have been to Williams new thread.
I have had enough of William. I consider him to be a waste of time that could be better spent elsewhere. As to my Honest opinion of you, I know you are an intelligent man. I know you have done extensive research and are thoughtful and studious.
I think also you may suffer from my own weakness. A short Temper and a propensity to dismiss or jump to a conclusion on something from someone we feel has less knowledge than we do with really without giving it proper thought asking why they would hold such a belief. Another reason why I do not consider myself to an authority.
The Standards for a teacher are high and I am to short.
That is my weakness. A good example is while I was typing this message my wife came in to ask me a question. She asked me "should we eat to live or live to eat?"
my first reaction to this question was ALERT! ALERT! WIFE ATEMTPTING TO USE BRAIN! But when she explained the reason for the question all of a sudden it was not such a stupid question after all. Not brilliant but relevant with a valid point
My position is this, I say I am non denominational which means I do not believe in organized religion. That requires a long explantion in and of itself. I do believe in the true religion.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
I am not against the Sabbath in the sense that I believe every Sabbath keeper is in violation of the Law of Christ and must worship on Sunday. I am against those who demand that another person must follow their interpretation of Scripture. my method of
sharing is to simply present the information and let the reader make his or her own decision with out trying to ram it down their throat. Freewill guided by the Holy Spirit.
Actually believe it or not, at times I find myself on the other end of the argument.
I have a friend who is a Sunday keeper who insisted I should make my wife stop keeping her Sabbath. In a polite way I told him to back off and mind his own Business.
You run your house and I will run mine. I have never told my wife she is in error for keeping the Sabbath. Her error was demanding that everybody else must do as she does. I permit her to teach the sabbath through the law of Christ in love rather in the Law of Moses in legalism. I realise that many have bandied about the Law of Love corrupting the original teaching of love over legalism. This is not new.
2pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
There are those who claim Paul taught a different doctrine than what Christ intended.
I disagree.
I do apoligize for asking if you live in a tent and abuse small furry animals. It was low and mean, done in anger and I hope you will forgive that. Actually I am very fond of all animals. I believe the original work of Adam to care for and maintain Gods earth is still relevant today. And yes I realize that statement gives you another bullet for if I believe this then why can I not accept your view on the Sabbath? it is a good and valid question and hopefully we will have time to address it.
Mt 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mt 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
This is a New Testament commandment. It is not a request and I take it literally.To me ,even a simple prayer of grace at meal time is a form of worship. If there is anger in your heart, even that simple prayer is not acceptable. I beleive the Bible teaches that the sweet odors of the sacrifices in the temple have been replaced by the sweet odors of Christian prayer.
Re 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
You may wonder if I feel this way then why do I not apoligize to William. This is because I believe William is an enemy of the cross. The enemy of Christ is my enemy.
1co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
2jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
Hopefully this will give you a better understanding of who I am and what I believe. I hope we can continue a consructive dialog as two men who love the Lord although from different positions both believe in thier hearts to be bible based rather than two boys fighting over a toy in a sandbox
yours in Christ
deu58
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Why does one keep the Sabbath today?
Very simply put there has never been a command to stop keeping it. There has never been a command to keep the first day of the week. If there was I would keep it.
deu58
Can you show me from the Bible where it says to keep the first day of the week instead of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath?
Very simply put there has never been a command to stop keeping it. There has never been a command to keep the first day of the week. If there was I would keep it.
deu58
Can you show me from the Bible where it says to keep the first day of the week instead of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath?
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deu58
Senior Veteran
To all
Is it possible to use an outside editor such as frontpage or notepad and then paste it to the editor here? I am kind of new at using a forum editor outside of simple replies and there are many times I would like to take pieces of a different post and paste them in my new post. I am always worried about changing pages when I have the editor open because I am afraid the editor will dump my article while searching for something. I know can paste from my own Files. I need to know how to do it from posts on the forum itself. I have seen people do it.
yours in Christ
deu58
Is it possible to use an outside editor such as frontpage or notepad and then paste it to the editor here? I am kind of new at using a forum editor outside of simple replies and there are many times I would like to take pieces of a different post and paste them in my new post. I am always worried about changing pages when I have the editor open because I am afraid the editor will dump my article while searching for something. I know can paste from my own Files. I need to know how to do it from posts on the forum itself. I have seen people do it.
yours in Christ
deu58
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deu58
Senior Veteran
Hello symes
I do not know if Adam is and an Adventist or not. He does qoute Sam B who was considered an expert on Sabbath matters. When dealing with Adventists you need to use a different starting point Than you would use with an non Adventist. That starting point is Ellen G White and the Spirit of Prophecy.
Ellen White did claim that she was an inspired author.
"The Holy Ghost is the Author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy."
{Selected Messages,Vol.3 p.30}
"These books contain clear ,straight, unalterable truth and they should be certainly appreciated The instruction they contain is not of human production" {Letter h-339,Dec 26,1904}
"I beg of you for Christ sake to consider what I say :for I say it not of myself. It is the word of God to you" {Letter 25b, 1895,pp 1-3 to Brother and Sister Hare, April 1895}
If you do not beleive what she States is true. Then you are not truly an Adventist. That is why the home churchs have seperated from the main body of Adventism. They view you as an Apostate Church because the main church does not try to apply the writings completly just as Ellen White instructed them to. In the old days people were cast out of the church for not accepting her Authority
In regard to the visions of E.G. White, we never could believe they were from God. We often tried to feel right about them, and tried to reconcile them with the word, but never could We have been judged, condemned and rejected by those that we expected better things from on account of it.
George and Jane Stults (Hope of Israel, Jul. 10, 1866)
Part of a statement from parishioners of Gilbert Cranmer
Some of the church got very much excited over the course elder Cranmer proposed to pursue in regard to the "shut-door" question, and Mr. George Leighton went to Battle Creek to confer with elder White on the subject. On his return, Mr. Leighton said that elder White told him not to let elder Cranmer preach to the church at Otsego. According to my recollection of the matter elder Cranmer then wrote to Battle Creek and requested a decision as to whether they considered him a pastor, and as to his right to preach among them. The result of their conclusion in the matter was that they refused him the privilege of preaching to them or for them for the reason that he did not hold the visions of Ellen G. White to be inspired. Mr. Leighton said in our presence that the visions were inspired, that they were better than the Bible because they were warm and fresh from the throne of God, and that anyone who did not accept them as inspiration absolutely would be ******. The visions were made a test of fellowship from that time. These statements we solemnly aver to be true, and we were members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Otsego at the time.
Joseph J. Perkins
Louise H. Perkins
Galesburgh, Michigan
It is because of the visions of egw that the Adventists became Sabbath keepers. When Joseph Bates first presented his Sabbath posistion nobody really Believed him. including egw.
Christian experience and teachings of Ellen G White
pg 85
Elder Bates was resting upon Saturday, the seventh day of the week, and he urged it upon our attention as the true Sabbath. I did not feel its importance, and thought that he erred in dwelling upon the fourth commandment more than upon the other nine.
Later she had a vision.
94- {5MR 93.3}
I will now write you the vision God gave me on the Sabbath, the twenty-fourth of March. We had a glorious meeting. I was taken off in vision. {5MR 94.1}
I saw the commandments of God and shut door could not be separated. I saw the time for the commandments of God to shine out to His people was when the door was opening in the inner apartment of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door in the outer apartment and opened the door in the inner apartment and passed into the Most Holy Place, and the faith of Israel now reaches within the second veil where Jesus now stands by the ark. I saw that Jesus had opened the door in the Most Holy Place and no man can shut it; and that since Jesus had opened the door in the Most Holy Place the commandments have been shining out and God has been testing His people on the holy Sabbath.--Letter 5, 1849, pp. 1-3. (To Brother and Sister Hastings, March 24-30, 1849.)
The Sanctuary,The Investistigative Judgment, The Sabbath, The Scape Goat, and the now disavowed Shut door are all connected like the links of a chain. If one fails they all fail.
In the Shutdoor Ellen White, In support of another Bates teaching the seven spots of blood on the alter, egw saw in vision that it was not possible for anymore sinners to be saved. Jesus was supposed to return in the fall of 1851.
Review and Herald, May 25, 1905
"After the passing of the time in 1844 we searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with the brethren, and we studied and prayed earnestly... When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more," the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me. I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me, A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me"
A Word to the Little Flock - To the Remnant Scattered Abroad. 1847. Pg 14
While praying at the family altar, the Holy Ghost fell on me, and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the Advent people in the world, but could not find them--when a voice said to me, "Look again, and look a little higher." ............
And if they kept their eyes fixed on Jesus, who was just before them, leading them to the City, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and they said the City was a great way off, and they expected to have entered it before. Then Jesus would encourage them by raising his glorious right arm, and from his arm came a glorious light which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted Hallelujah! Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City,as all the wicked world which God had rejected.
5 MR pg 93.
The Spirit came upon me and I was taken off in vision. I saw many important things, some of which I will write you before I close this letter. I saw Brother Stowell, of Paris, was wavering upon the shut door. I felt that I must visit them. Although it was fifty miles off and very bad going, I believed God would strengthen me to perform the journey. We went and found they needed strengthening. There had not been a meeting in the place for above two years. We spent one week with them. Our meetings were very interesting. They were hungry for present truth. We had free, powerful meetings with them. God gave me two visions while there, much to the comfort and strength of the brethren and sisters. Brother Stowell was established in the shut door and all the present truth he had doubted.
Present Truth, pp. 21-22, August, 1849.
Some appeared to have been really converted, so as to deceive Gods people, but if their hearts could be seen they would appear as black as ever. My accompanying angel bade me look for the travail of soul for sinners as used to be. I looked, but could not see it, for the time for their salvation is past.
Early Writings, p. 261.
I saw that as the Jews crucified Jesus, so the nominal churches had crucified these messages [of the Investigative Judgment], and therefore they have no knowledge of the way into the most holy, and they cannot be benefited [sic] by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left; and Satan, pleased with the deception, assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself .
On June 27, 1850, Mrs. White wrote that only a few months remained for the people to get ready:
"My accompanying angel said, 'Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.' . . . now time is almost finished. . . and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months." (Early Writings, pp. 64-67).
Notice the year is 1850 when she writes the time is almost finished. She still believed in the seven spots of blood teaching. It is important to remember that the people who followed these teachings looked to Ellen White and her visions to confirm that these teachings were truly from God
Later after the failure of the 7 year tarrying time as taught by Bates by his interpretation of the seven spots of blood on the alter egw would deny ever
having these visions
Selected Messages, Vol. 1, p. 74.
With my brethren and sisters, after the time passed in forty-four I did believe no more sinners would be converted. But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted. And am clear and free to state that no one has ever heard me say or has read from my pen statements which will justify them in the charges they have made against me upon this point..
And the Investigative Judgment.
The pioneers, for the most part, were young and inexperienced. Most rejected the Trinity, and thought Christ was a created being. The pioneers were certainly not right on everything.
At the suggestion of F. D. Nichol he sent a questionnaire to twenty-seven leading Adventist scholars and found that they too had no adequate biblical defense for it. Some expressed the thought that Daniel 8:14 had nothing to do with its context and that the inaccurate word cleansed, which had lead the pioneers to connect Daniel 8:14 with the cleansing of the sanctuary in Leviticus 16, was simply a fortunate accident.
A committee appointed by the General Conference met for five years but could not resolve the issues. A minority admitted that the Adventist position could not be proved from the Bible. The majority wanted to solve the problem by ignoring context and language altogetherThe pioneers, for the most part, were young and inexperienced. Most rejected the Trinity, and thought Christ was a created being. The pioneers were certainly not right on everything.
At the suggestion of F. D. Nichol he sent a questionnaire to twenty-seven leading Adventist scholars and found that they too had no adequate biblical defense for it. Some expressed the thought that Daniel 8:14 had nothing to do with its context and that the inaccurate word cleansed, which had lead the pioneers to connect Daniel 8:14 with the cleansing of the sanctuary in Leviticus 16, was simply a fortunate accident.
A committee appointed by the General Conference met for five years but could not resolve the issues. A minority admitted that the Adventist position could not be proved from the Bible. The majority wanted to solve the problem by ignoring context and language altogether
At the meeting of the forum Elder Cottrell declared that despite exhaustive efforts he could not prove the SDA view from the Bible. (In the 1950s, Don F. Neufeld of the Adventist Review had reached the same conclusion.) Cottrell does not want to abandon the traditional teaching. In fact, he desperately wishes to retain it. But he believes it solely on the say-so of Ellen White. (It is doubtful that anyone is really satisfied with such a "solution."How can we preach a message to the world if we cannot prove it from the Bible?)
Excerpts from a letter written by Robert Brinsmead
Adventist historian and theologian, LeRoy E. Froom states the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment,which is not found in the Bible, is the Seventh-day Adventist churchs only reason for existence:
Indeed, if there is no actual Sanctuary in heaven, and no pastoring Great High Priest serving therein; and if there is no Judgment Hour message to herald from God to mankind at this time, then we have no justifiable place in the religious world, no distinctive denominational mission and message, no excuse for functioning as a separate church entity today. Movement of Destiny, p. 542.
Froom also states that any deviation from this doctrine of the Investigative Judgment strikes at Adventisms very integrity:
Consequently any weakening or denial or submerging of the Sanctuary truth is not only a serious but a crucial matter. Any deviation or dereliction therefrom strikes at the heart of Adventism, and challenges its very integrity. Movement of Destiny, p. 542.
The point being brother Symes is the only Reason the Adventists became Sabbatarin is due to the visions of Ellen G White Many Adventists use her Writings to interpret the bible. Not the Holy Spirit.
I do not expect you to change your mind because of one post. The first two years of our marriage I can not tell how many times the wife and I were ready to seperate because Ellen G White. I could show her nothing from the Bible Because the Ghost egw was ever present.
The answer to your question is determining what ended and what began at the cross which is no easy task in it self. But until you come to the conclusion of who Egw is in your own life it is even more difficult. If you hold as some do that only some of her writings are inspired then you disprove her authority yourself . This is like saying I accept Mark ch6 but I do know not about ch10, for as seen already, she did believe all of it was inspired. As time went on egw changed her posistion on her writings several times. She had no choice.
I have to go now time for worship.
yours in Christ
deu58
I do not know if Adam is and an Adventist or not. He does qoute Sam B who was considered an expert on Sabbath matters. When dealing with Adventists you need to use a different starting point Than you would use with an non Adventist. That starting point is Ellen G White and the Spirit of Prophecy.
Ellen White did claim that she was an inspired author.
"The Holy Ghost is the Author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy."
{Selected Messages,Vol.3 p.30}
"These books contain clear ,straight, unalterable truth and they should be certainly appreciated The instruction they contain is not of human production" {Letter h-339,Dec 26,1904}
"I beg of you for Christ sake to consider what I say :for I say it not of myself. It is the word of God to you" {Letter 25b, 1895,pp 1-3 to Brother and Sister Hare, April 1895}
If you do not beleive what she States is true. Then you are not truly an Adventist. That is why the home churchs have seperated from the main body of Adventism. They view you as an Apostate Church because the main church does not try to apply the writings completly just as Ellen White instructed them to. In the old days people were cast out of the church for not accepting her Authority
In regard to the visions of E.G. White, we never could believe they were from God. We often tried to feel right about them, and tried to reconcile them with the word, but never could We have been judged, condemned and rejected by those that we expected better things from on account of it.
George and Jane Stults (Hope of Israel, Jul. 10, 1866)
Part of a statement from parishioners of Gilbert Cranmer
Some of the church got very much excited over the course elder Cranmer proposed to pursue in regard to the "shut-door" question, and Mr. George Leighton went to Battle Creek to confer with elder White on the subject. On his return, Mr. Leighton said that elder White told him not to let elder Cranmer preach to the church at Otsego. According to my recollection of the matter elder Cranmer then wrote to Battle Creek and requested a decision as to whether they considered him a pastor, and as to his right to preach among them. The result of their conclusion in the matter was that they refused him the privilege of preaching to them or for them for the reason that he did not hold the visions of Ellen G. White to be inspired. Mr. Leighton said in our presence that the visions were inspired, that they were better than the Bible because they were warm and fresh from the throne of God, and that anyone who did not accept them as inspiration absolutely would be ******. The visions were made a test of fellowship from that time. These statements we solemnly aver to be true, and we were members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Otsego at the time.
Joseph J. Perkins
Louise H. Perkins
Galesburgh, Michigan
It is because of the visions of egw that the Adventists became Sabbath keepers. When Joseph Bates first presented his Sabbath posistion nobody really Believed him. including egw.
Christian experience and teachings of Ellen G White
pg 85
Elder Bates was resting upon Saturday, the seventh day of the week, and he urged it upon our attention as the true Sabbath. I did not feel its importance, and thought that he erred in dwelling upon the fourth commandment more than upon the other nine.
Later she had a vision.
94- {5MR 93.3}
I will now write you the vision God gave me on the Sabbath, the twenty-fourth of March. We had a glorious meeting. I was taken off in vision. {5MR 94.1}
I saw the commandments of God and shut door could not be separated. I saw the time for the commandments of God to shine out to His people was when the door was opening in the inner apartment of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door in the outer apartment and opened the door in the inner apartment and passed into the Most Holy Place, and the faith of Israel now reaches within the second veil where Jesus now stands by the ark. I saw that Jesus had opened the door in the Most Holy Place and no man can shut it; and that since Jesus had opened the door in the Most Holy Place the commandments have been shining out and God has been testing His people on the holy Sabbath.--Letter 5, 1849, pp. 1-3. (To Brother and Sister Hastings, March 24-30, 1849.)
The Sanctuary,The Investistigative Judgment, The Sabbath, The Scape Goat, and the now disavowed Shut door are all connected like the links of a chain. If one fails they all fail.
In the Shutdoor Ellen White, In support of another Bates teaching the seven spots of blood on the alter, egw saw in vision that it was not possible for anymore sinners to be saved. Jesus was supposed to return in the fall of 1851.
Review and Herald, May 25, 1905
"After the passing of the time in 1844 we searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with the brethren, and we studied and prayed earnestly... When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more," the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me. I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me, A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me"
A Word to the Little Flock - To the Remnant Scattered Abroad. 1847. Pg 14
While praying at the family altar, the Holy Ghost fell on me, and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the Advent people in the world, but could not find them--when a voice said to me, "Look again, and look a little higher." ............
And if they kept their eyes fixed on Jesus, who was just before them, leading them to the City, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and they said the City was a great way off, and they expected to have entered it before. Then Jesus would encourage them by raising his glorious right arm, and from his arm came a glorious light which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted Hallelujah! Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City,as all the wicked world which God had rejected.
5 MR pg 93.
The Spirit came upon me and I was taken off in vision. I saw many important things, some of which I will write you before I close this letter. I saw Brother Stowell, of Paris, was wavering upon the shut door. I felt that I must visit them. Although it was fifty miles off and very bad going, I believed God would strengthen me to perform the journey. We went and found they needed strengthening. There had not been a meeting in the place for above two years. We spent one week with them. Our meetings were very interesting. They were hungry for present truth. We had free, powerful meetings with them. God gave me two visions while there, much to the comfort and strength of the brethren and sisters. Brother Stowell was established in the shut door and all the present truth he had doubted.
Present Truth, pp. 21-22, August, 1849.
Some appeared to have been really converted, so as to deceive Gods people, but if their hearts could be seen they would appear as black as ever. My accompanying angel bade me look for the travail of soul for sinners as used to be. I looked, but could not see it, for the time for their salvation is past.
Early Writings, p. 261.
I saw that as the Jews crucified Jesus, so the nominal churches had crucified these messages [of the Investigative Judgment], and therefore they have no knowledge of the way into the most holy, and they cannot be benefited [sic] by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left; and Satan, pleased with the deception, assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself .
On June 27, 1850, Mrs. White wrote that only a few months remained for the people to get ready:
"My accompanying angel said, 'Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.' . . . now time is almost finished. . . and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months." (Early Writings, pp. 64-67).
Notice the year is 1850 when she writes the time is almost finished. She still believed in the seven spots of blood teaching. It is important to remember that the people who followed these teachings looked to Ellen White and her visions to confirm that these teachings were truly from God
Later after the failure of the 7 year tarrying time as taught by Bates by his interpretation of the seven spots of blood on the alter egw would deny ever
having these visions
Selected Messages, Vol. 1, p. 74.
With my brethren and sisters, after the time passed in forty-four I did believe no more sinners would be converted. But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted. And am clear and free to state that no one has ever heard me say or has read from my pen statements which will justify them in the charges they have made against me upon this point..
And the Investigative Judgment.
The pioneers, for the most part, were young and inexperienced. Most rejected the Trinity, and thought Christ was a created being. The pioneers were certainly not right on everything.
At the suggestion of F. D. Nichol he sent a questionnaire to twenty-seven leading Adventist scholars and found that they too had no adequate biblical defense for it. Some expressed the thought that Daniel 8:14 had nothing to do with its context and that the inaccurate word cleansed, which had lead the pioneers to connect Daniel 8:14 with the cleansing of the sanctuary in Leviticus 16, was simply a fortunate accident.
A committee appointed by the General Conference met for five years but could not resolve the issues. A minority admitted that the Adventist position could not be proved from the Bible. The majority wanted to solve the problem by ignoring context and language altogetherThe pioneers, for the most part, were young and inexperienced. Most rejected the Trinity, and thought Christ was a created being. The pioneers were certainly not right on everything.
At the suggestion of F. D. Nichol he sent a questionnaire to twenty-seven leading Adventist scholars and found that they too had no adequate biblical defense for it. Some expressed the thought that Daniel 8:14 had nothing to do with its context and that the inaccurate word cleansed, which had lead the pioneers to connect Daniel 8:14 with the cleansing of the sanctuary in Leviticus 16, was simply a fortunate accident.
A committee appointed by the General Conference met for five years but could not resolve the issues. A minority admitted that the Adventist position could not be proved from the Bible. The majority wanted to solve the problem by ignoring context and language altogether
At the meeting of the forum Elder Cottrell declared that despite exhaustive efforts he could not prove the SDA view from the Bible. (In the 1950s, Don F. Neufeld of the Adventist Review had reached the same conclusion.) Cottrell does not want to abandon the traditional teaching. In fact, he desperately wishes to retain it. But he believes it solely on the say-so of Ellen White. (It is doubtful that anyone is really satisfied with such a "solution."How can we preach a message to the world if we cannot prove it from the Bible?)
Excerpts from a letter written by Robert Brinsmead
Adventist historian and theologian, LeRoy E. Froom states the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment,which is not found in the Bible, is the Seventh-day Adventist churchs only reason for existence:
Indeed, if there is no actual Sanctuary in heaven, and no pastoring Great High Priest serving therein; and if there is no Judgment Hour message to herald from God to mankind at this time, then we have no justifiable place in the religious world, no distinctive denominational mission and message, no excuse for functioning as a separate church entity today. Movement of Destiny, p. 542.
Froom also states that any deviation from this doctrine of the Investigative Judgment strikes at Adventisms very integrity:
Consequently any weakening or denial or submerging of the Sanctuary truth is not only a serious but a crucial matter. Any deviation or dereliction therefrom strikes at the heart of Adventism, and challenges its very integrity. Movement of Destiny, p. 542.
The point being brother Symes is the only Reason the Adventists became Sabbatarin is due to the visions of Ellen G White Many Adventists use her Writings to interpret the bible. Not the Holy Spirit.
I do not expect you to change your mind because of one post. The first two years of our marriage I can not tell how many times the wife and I were ready to seperate because Ellen G White. I could show her nothing from the Bible Because the Ghost egw was ever present.
The answer to your question is determining what ended and what began at the cross which is no easy task in it self. But until you come to the conclusion of who Egw is in your own life it is even more difficult. If you hold as some do that only some of her writings are inspired then you disprove her authority yourself . This is like saying I accept Mark ch6 but I do know not about ch10, for as seen already, she did believe all of it was inspired. As time went on egw changed her posistion on her writings several times. She had no choice.
I have to go now time for worship.
yours in Christ
deu58
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adam332
Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD t
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deu,
I don't have much time this morning...getting ready for work(one of the six work days designated by God), so I'll be brief.
First, to answer anyones curiousity....I am not a SDA. I do attend at their church because I cannot find another that teaches any closer to what I find in the Bible. I picked them after checking out the doctrines of many Sabbatarian groups. Basically I'm pretty much a SDA...minus the EGW conviction.
You said,
"Why did you accuse me of purposly misrepresenting Scripture and history that could lead to harming new believers, with out really finding out why I held such a beleif, And you did not reprove William for saying we need to follow Abraham, including the animal sacrifices to be in obediance to God?"
First I feel that you are way to knowledgable in that which you brought forth....for it to be simply a mistake that you should have quoted out of context and with a statement that could not be backed up in context.
It would be like me quoting only the part that where Ignatius said to keep the Sabbath...and then remarking that he did not keep Sunday. That would have been an incorrect statement and I would have obviously left out the part that indicated my uncontextual twisting of the truth.
I will try to find some more time tonight to finish.
Gotta' go.
I don't have much time this morning...getting ready for work(one of the six work days designated by God
), so I'll be brief.First, to answer anyones curiousity....I am not a SDA. I do attend at their church because I cannot find another that teaches any closer to what I find in the Bible. I picked them after checking out the doctrines of many Sabbatarian groups. Basically I'm pretty much a SDA...minus the EGW conviction.
You said,
"Why did you accuse me of purposly misrepresenting Scripture and history that could lead to harming new believers, with out really finding out why I held such a beleif, And you did not reprove William for saying we need to follow Abraham, including the animal sacrifices to be in obediance to God?"
First I feel that you are way to knowledgable in that which you brought forth....for it to be simply a mistake that you should have quoted out of context and with a statement that could not be backed up in context.
It would be like me quoting only the part that where Ignatius said to keep the Sabbath...and then remarking that he did not keep Sunday. That would have been an incorrect statement and I would have obviously left out the part that indicated my uncontextual twisting of the truth.
I will try to find some more time tonight to finish.
Gotta' go.
Upvote
0
deu58
Senior Veteran
Adam
Here is a more detailed account of what I posted earlier on this subject.
This is the opening Statement from ch 1 the Martyrdom of Ignatius
When Trajan, not long since,1 succeeded to the empire of the Romans, Ignatius, the disciple of John the apostle, a man in all respects of an apostolic character, governed the Church of the Antiochians with great care, having with difficulty escaped the former storms of the many persecutions under Domitian, inasmuch as, like a good pilot, by the helm of prayer and fasting, by the earnestness of his teaching, and by his [constant2 spiritual labour, he resisted the flood that rolled against him, fearing [only] lest he should lose any of those who were deficient in courage, or apt to suffer from their simplicity.3
I did say that Ignatius was a disciple of John the apostle.
This Argument started over the interpretation Rev1:10 The first part of the argument was when John was in the spirit on the Lords day was it Saturday or Sunday?
On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost; and before sunset He was buried.67 During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathaea had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord's day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, "As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."68 The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord's Day contains the resurrection.
The above is from Epistle to the Trallians ch9 This specifically states the two seperate days. Sabbath = Saturday the Lords Day = Sunday
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things49 have come to the possession of a new50 hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance51 of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith,52 and therefore endure,
The above and below is from his Epistle to the Magesians ch9
Now that we know what Ignatius meant when he used the word The Lords Day. He Did say they no longer obseved the Sabbath
Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat."57 For say the [holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread."58 But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them.59 And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, "To the end, for the eighth day,"60 on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ,
I can see where one might think the Sabbath is still observed, But notice also
it is a workday. For he does say that he who does not work should not eat.
all the physical activities of a normal day. work, eat and travel.
He also claims that the Lords Day is Greater than the Sabbath calling it the cheif and queen of all days of the week. In other words it is exalted above all days. But Adventists hold that Sunday is just another day.Now considering he was Johns disciple, and it was John who was in the Spirit on the Lords day I would think Ignatius surly must have known the difference between the Sabbath and the Lords Day
Re 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
He does State that we should observe it in a spiritual manner,Meditating on the law, but that is something we are supposed to do everyday anyway
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Ro 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
I do not know how you can do this by spiritual meditation just one day a week.
Now before you start calling this guy a sellout again read his track record from the martrydom of Ignatius first. Yuo have freewill and as Phill:2:12 says work out your own salvation but I cannot help but feel it unwise to speak such of one of Christs martyrs
Chapter II.-Ignatius is Condemned by Trajan.
For Trajan, in the ninth5 year of his reign, being lifted up [with pride], after the victory he had gained over the Scythians and Dacians, and many other nations, and thinking that the religious body of the Christians were yet wanting to complete the subjugation of all things to himself, and [thereupon] threatening them with persecution unless they should agree to worship daemons, as did all other nations, thus compelled all who were living godly lives either to sacrifice [to idols] or die. Wherefore the noble soldier of Christ [Ignatius], being in fear for the Church of the Antiochians, was, in accordance with his own desire, brought before Trajan, who was at that time staying at Antioch, but was in haste [to set forth] against Armenia and the Parthians. And when he was set before the emperor Trajan, [that prince] said unto him, "Who art thou, wicked wretch, who settest thyself to transgress our commands, and persuadest others to do the same, so that they should miserably perish? "Ignatius replied, "No one ought to call Theophorus wicked; for all evil spirits have departed from the servants of God. But if, because I am an enemy to these [spirits], you call me wicked in respect to them, I quite agree with you; for inasmuch as I have Christ the King of heaven [within me], I destroy all the devices of these [evil spirits]." Trajan answered, "And who is Theophorus? "Ignatius replied, "He who has Christ within his breast." Trajan said, "Do we not then seem to you to have the gods in our mind, whose assistance we enjoy in fighting against our enemies? "Ignatius answered, "Thou art in error when thou callest the daemons of the nations gods. For there is but one God, who made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that are in them; and one Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, whose kingdom may I enjoy." Trajan said, "Do you mean Him who was crucified under Pontius Pilate? "Ignatius replied, "I mean Him who crucified my sin, with him who was the inventor of it, and who has condemned [and cast down] all the deceit and malice of the devil under the feet of those who carry Him in their heart." Trajan said, "Dost thou then carry within thee Him that was crucified? "Ignatius replied, "Truly so; for it is written, `I will dwell in them, and walk in them.'" Then Trajan pronounced sentence as follows: "We command that Ignatius, who affirms that he carries about within him Him that was crucified, be bound by soldiers, and carried to the great [city] Rome, there to be devoured by the beasts, for the gratification of the people." When the holy martyr heard this sentence, he cried out with joy, "I thank thee, O Lord, that Thou hast vouchsafed to honour me with a perfect love towards Thee, and hast made me to be bound with iron chains, like Thy Apostle Paul." Having spoken thus, he then, with delight, clasped the chains about him; and when he had first prayed for the Church, and commended it with tears to the Lord, he was hurried away by the savage cruelty of the soldiers, like a distinguished ram the leader of a goodly flock, that he might be carried to Rome, there to furnish food to the bloodthirsty beasts
Yours in Christ
deu58
Here is a more detailed account of what I posted earlier on this subject.
This is the opening Statement from ch 1 the Martyrdom of Ignatius
When Trajan, not long since,1 succeeded to the empire of the Romans, Ignatius, the disciple of John the apostle, a man in all respects of an apostolic character, governed the Church of the Antiochians with great care, having with difficulty escaped the former storms of the many persecutions under Domitian, inasmuch as, like a good pilot, by the helm of prayer and fasting, by the earnestness of his teaching, and by his [constant2 spiritual labour, he resisted the flood that rolled against him, fearing [only] lest he should lose any of those who were deficient in courage, or apt to suffer from their simplicity.3
I did say that Ignatius was a disciple of John the apostle.
This Argument started over the interpretation Rev1:10 The first part of the argument was when John was in the spirit on the Lords day was it Saturday or Sunday?
On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost; and before sunset He was buried.67 During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathaea had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord's day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, "As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."68 The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord's Day contains the resurrection.
The above is from Epistle to the Trallians ch9 This specifically states the two seperate days. Sabbath = Saturday the Lords Day = Sunday
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things49 have come to the possession of a new50 hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance51 of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith,52 and therefore endure,
The above and below is from his Epistle to the Magesians ch9
Now that we know what Ignatius meant when he used the word The Lords Day. He Did say they no longer obseved the Sabbath
Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat."57 For say the [holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread."58 But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them.59 And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, "To the end, for the eighth day,"60 on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ,
I can see where one might think the Sabbath is still observed, But notice also
it is a workday. For he does say that he who does not work should not eat.
all the physical activities of a normal day. work, eat and travel.
He also claims that the Lords Day is Greater than the Sabbath calling it the cheif and queen of all days of the week. In other words it is exalted above all days. But Adventists hold that Sunday is just another day.Now considering he was Johns disciple, and it was John who was in the Spirit on the Lords day I would think Ignatius surly must have known the difference between the Sabbath and the Lords Day
Re 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
He does State that we should observe it in a spiritual manner,Meditating on the law, but that is something we are supposed to do everyday anyway
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Ro 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
I do not know how you can do this by spiritual meditation just one day a week.
Now before you start calling this guy a sellout again read his track record from the martrydom of Ignatius first. Yuo have freewill and as Phill:2:12 says work out your own salvation but I cannot help but feel it unwise to speak such of one of Christs martyrs
Chapter II.-Ignatius is Condemned by Trajan.
For Trajan, in the ninth5 year of his reign, being lifted up [with pride], after the victory he had gained over the Scythians and Dacians, and many other nations, and thinking that the religious body of the Christians were yet wanting to complete the subjugation of all things to himself, and [thereupon] threatening them with persecution unless they should agree to worship daemons, as did all other nations, thus compelled all who were living godly lives either to sacrifice [to idols] or die. Wherefore the noble soldier of Christ [Ignatius], being in fear for the Church of the Antiochians, was, in accordance with his own desire, brought before Trajan, who was at that time staying at Antioch, but was in haste [to set forth] against Armenia and the Parthians. And when he was set before the emperor Trajan, [that prince] said unto him, "Who art thou, wicked wretch, who settest thyself to transgress our commands, and persuadest others to do the same, so that they should miserably perish? "Ignatius replied, "No one ought to call Theophorus wicked; for all evil spirits have departed from the servants of God. But if, because I am an enemy to these [spirits], you call me wicked in respect to them, I quite agree with you; for inasmuch as I have Christ the King of heaven [within me], I destroy all the devices of these [evil spirits]." Trajan answered, "And who is Theophorus? "Ignatius replied, "He who has Christ within his breast." Trajan said, "Do we not then seem to you to have the gods in our mind, whose assistance we enjoy in fighting against our enemies? "Ignatius answered, "Thou art in error when thou callest the daemons of the nations gods. For there is but one God, who made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that are in them; and one Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, whose kingdom may I enjoy." Trajan said, "Do you mean Him who was crucified under Pontius Pilate? "Ignatius replied, "I mean Him who crucified my sin, with him who was the inventor of it, and who has condemned [and cast down] all the deceit and malice of the devil under the feet of those who carry Him in their heart." Trajan said, "Dost thou then carry within thee Him that was crucified? "Ignatius replied, "Truly so; for it is written, `I will dwell in them, and walk in them.'" Then Trajan pronounced sentence as follows: "We command that Ignatius, who affirms that he carries about within him Him that was crucified, be bound by soldiers, and carried to the great [city] Rome, there to be devoured by the beasts, for the gratification of the people." When the holy martyr heard this sentence, he cried out with joy, "I thank thee, O Lord, that Thou hast vouchsafed to honour me with a perfect love towards Thee, and hast made me to be bound with iron chains, like Thy Apostle Paul." Having spoken thus, he then, with delight, clasped the chains about him; and when he had first prayed for the Church, and commended it with tears to the Lord, he was hurried away by the savage cruelty of the soldiers, like a distinguished ram the leader of a goodly flock, that he might be carried to Rome, there to furnish food to the bloodthirsty beasts
Yours in Christ
deu58
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