Understanding the Sabbath

(From razzelflabben)
One of the first being, if the Sabbath can only be on Sat. or Sun whichever you hold too, then why do you attend services and ask your pastor and other workers in the church to do thier jobs?

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The priests in the Old Testament were allowed to do temple work and God did not consider that the fourth commandment had been broken. It is the same today. There are some things at Church that has to be done so worship can take place. God does not consider that a sin.

Adam

you said.

Let’s get back to business…

First of all yes, the Mishnah was not written for over a hundred years following Christ. But the laws that are found in the Mishnah were known orally and evolved over centuries prior to Christ. Where else was I to tell you that they could be found?

I am aware of what the passage says, that does not mean it is what Paul meant. I did not put the emphasis on the single word “handwriting”, you did. Let me explain…this was the ONLY use of that word to be found. Therefore we do not have a way of checking it’s contextual usage with other times Paul used it or other NT writers for that matter. What we do have is many scholars of ancient Greek will tell you that is an inferior translation. Todays scholars have much more material and resources to call from than did the translators of the KJV. As will be evident if you check various Bible translations of that passage. Even if you check Strongs definition it will be referred to as a certificate of debt. In our modern language English, an IOU.

One translation that puts it quite well is the NASB….

"having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

The oral laws (which became the Mishnah), were considered by the very influential Pharisees and other religious leaders to be as valid as the written laws. If my memory serves me correctly they even believed that they were passed down to Moses and so on and so forth down to them. Perhaps they felt that Moses ran out of material to write upon, who knows? The bottom line is I do not base my interpretation of that passage on a single word, but instead upon the context of the entire chapter, book, and the rest of all the scripture balanced together in harmony.

Thus, they deemed their personal ordinances to be a sin as much as God’s laws. Therefore where there is sin there is a certificate of debt that must be dealt with.

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Here is a dictionary definition of certificate of debt


1cer•tif•i•cate \(')ser-"ti-fi-ket\ noun [ME certificat, fr. MF, fr. ML certificatum, fr. LL, neut. of certificatus, pp. of certificare to certify] (15c)
1 : a document containing a certified statement esp. as to the truth of something; specif : a document certifying that one has fulfilled the requirements of and may practice in a field
2 : something serving the same end as a certificate
3 : a document evidencing ownership or debt <a certificate of deposit>
(C)1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved

So as you can plainly see whether we use handwriting of ordinances or certificate of debt the meaning is still the same. It is dealing with something that was written. Not something that was spoken. That single word as you call it is the key word to the entire meaning from 2:14 to 2:23 But maybe you do not use dictionaries either.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

This certificate of debt was blotted out by being nailed to the cross. now if you hold the position that it was the oral law that was nailed to the cross then that means the entire Christian world is wrong and you are right then also we are way behind on sacrifices because the crucifixion had nothing to do with the law of Moses.

You make much of going point by point when demanding it from others but when it is your turn to apply it to yourself you disregard it.
You made a lot of noise when I first posted Ignatius and Romans

I expect no one to take my word as teacher or anything, the Bible facts stand for themselves either it backs me or it doesn't. What I said about your Gal. 4 and Rom.14 references were dead on. It is not my opinion but a fact, you did try to pass off a single verse out of a whole chapter whose subject was specifically referring to feasting and fasting days ONLY! I am sure as ever, that you knew fully well there was no mention of the Sabbath or anthing to do with any of his ten commands yet you tried to pass it off as applicable anyway...this makes your actions deceitful, unobjective and dangerous to those who have a lesser grasp on the scriptures. This as well you did with Ignatius, you placed a single passage as an attempt to show that Sabbath keeping was done away with at that time, surely hoping I was ignorant as to what else he continued to say. Which told us specifically that he and the others were still keeping the Sabbath. Matter of fact he instructed it!

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but after I met your demands not a peep out of you with the exception that " I do not read commentaries" Which means all you do is make accusations regardless of if you know the facts or not but state it as fact solely upon your own "genius".

You are one of those who insist that there are 10 commandments today and not 9 and you are right but for the wrong reasons.

The Thadman said it already that commandments ,all 10, were not abolished at the cross and that is true. But all 10 did change.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Another question you have ignored in our "Point by Point" discussion is when did the sabbath end in the garden?

Ge 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Is this a 24 hour sabbath? Did God start creating again the very next day? Or was it finished. That rest was meant to last forever but the fall of man broke that Sabbath. Where is our rest? Is it the Sabbath?

Mr 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

If you want to cling to that cold lifeless piece stone for your rest well be my guest. As for me I will cling to Jesus and the rest he gives.
Can you show me the verse in the Bible where God states the Sabbath is a memorial to creation? seriously, because I can not find it.
Is it a memorial to creation or is it a memorial to Jesus Christ who was to come and give us his rest? The Entire law was a shadow not just certain sections.

Have you stopped to think that many of the first gentile Christians were slaves with pagan masters? Do you think their masters had any concern for a slaves wishes to keep the sabbath or any other day for that matter?

The Fourth commandment was also the day the Jews were to reflect on God. For us today it is called worship.

Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

This means today that even a simple prayer at the table is considered worship. Remember in the old testament the sweet savors of the meat offerings would come up to God to be smelled?

Re 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

We have already received spiritual rest in Jesus and now we await the the fulfillment of the physical rest that is to come.
Again there is nothing wrong with worshipping on the Sabbath if the worship is in spirit and truth. Nobody is telling you to stop.
But you refuse people the right they have to make a choice through their own liberty in Christ. But my attitude toward you is you cling to your rock and I will cling to mine. But to me you are simply a man who is dancing with out music.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

yours in Christ
deu58

The Thadman said:

I've really seen "Sabbath" as "week" or "seven days." Hebrew and Aramaic days of the week are counted from the Sabbath day.

Sunday is litterally, "First of Sabbath" Tuesday "Second of Sabbath", all the way up to Saturday: "Sabbath." (provided that my memory is serving me correctly).

Did this answer your question properly?

Shlomo,

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hello thadman
I went to your site it looks alot of the manuscripts are partial and many of the books are missing. Is that all the books or are there more?

do you think these books may drastically change the way we see the bible message today? or maybe just clear a couple things up?

yours in Christ
deu58

deu

We have already received spiritual rest in Jesus and now we await the the fulfillment of the physical rest that is to come.
Again there is nothing wrong with worshipping on the Sabbath if the worship is in spirit and truth. Nobody is telling you to stop.
But you refuse people the right they have to make a choice through their own liberty in Christ. But my attitude toward you is you cling to your rock and I will cling to mine. But to me you are simply a man who is dancing with out music.

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We do not have the right to decide what day we will worship on. I may choose Wednesday, another Monday, but God chose the seventh day for us. What we choose does not come into it. It is what God chose and made for us that counts.

Genesis 2:2,3

"By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [1] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

There has never been another day that God blessed or made holy, and rested on it. No where in the New Testament did Jesus set aside another day to worship on. This is a massive announcement made by God about the day to rest on. Being so big it would need another massive announcement by God to change the day that has been made holy. No such thing exsists.


Exodus 20:8-11

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

To "Remember" means not to forget. This is the only commandment that we have been told to "Remember". Why did God say to do this? He knew that we would forget.


Exodus 16:23
"He said to them, "This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD . So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'

Moses told the Children of Israel not to collect food on the Sabbath. This was before the commandemnts were given, showing that they knew of the Sabbath before.


Exodus 16:27-30
"Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. 28 Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long will you [3] refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? 29 Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." 30 So the people rested on the seventh day."

Isaiah 58:13
"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the LORD's holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,"

Isaiah 66:23
"From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD ."

Why would God change and now say that the Sabbath is the first day of the week.

Jesus worshiped on the Sabbath, all the apostles worshiped on the Sabbath. Why can't we just accept that and do like wise.

Hello symes

So now we can flip the argument around, if we can only have to remember one we can forget the rest?

I have been to the Sabbath churches and you know what? I see the same highminded judgmental backbiting lets hurry up and get this over with so we can go home and gossip about everybody atitudes in the sabbath churchs
that I see in a lot of the Sunday churchs. Sabbath or Sunday so what. Neither means a thing without a pure heart

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Kinda strange for how much emphasis you and adam out on the Sabbath he does not even bother to mention it,

yours in Christ
deu58

deu58 said:

hello thadman
I went to your site it looks alot of the manuscripts are partial and many of the books are missing. Is that all the books or are there more?

do you think these books may drastically change the way we see the bible message today? or maybe just clear a couple things up?

yours in Christ
deu58

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Only some of the manuscripts are "partial" (Sinaiticus and Curetonius, and a few dozen others). We have many full-length Aramaic manuscripts of the NT, one of the more prominent ones being the Khabouris (which is purportedly copied from a 2nd century MSS).

Change God's message? It depends on how you look at it. Jesus' words in Aramaic convey a great amount of poetry and punnery, so it would forever change how we study his parables and other teachings on a litterary level. It would also clear up the many ambiguities in the letters of Paul, and shed light on his tendency towards satire. The main message, however, that Jesus died for us, paying for all of our sins, will forever be intact.

Some books in today's "accepted cannon" do not appear to be originally written in Aramaic, and as a result, most of which were not included in the Peshitta cannon. The only exception to this is Revelation, which has strong evidence that gives way to an Aramaic original, but but we only have Aramaic versions of Revelation that look like they were translated from Greek.

Shlomo,
(Peace)

Hello symes

So now we can flip the argument around, if we can only have to remember one we can forget the rest?

I have been to the Sabbath churches and you know what? I see the same highminded judgmental backbiting lets hurry up and get this over with so we can go home and gossip about everybody atitudes in the sabbath churchs
that I see in a lot of the Sunday churchs. Sabbath or Sunday so what. Neither means a thing without a pure heart

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deu

Not at all. They were told to "Remember" the fourth as God in His wisdom and knowledge knew this was the commandment they would forget. The rest are just as important. I ahve to agree in your last sentance that " Neither means a thing without a pure heart"

That still does not prove that the Sabbath is wrong. All it shows is that the hearts have not been changed. Conversion needs to take place.

Where in the scriptures is the sabbath viewed on a weekly basis? I have yet to find a referrence that speaks of the sabbath as anything but a daily account of time. (I freely admit I have not done a indepth study on the issue but I have studied some and would love to have an actual understanding of the scripture as a result of this thread) Even in Gen., when the idea of a sabbath was created, the measure of time was that of day not week. If this is the case, then, the Jewish idea of Sat. being the sabbath stems from a calendar that was instituted after the command to have a sabbath and therefore, without a direct command from God, the idea of the Sabbath being on Sat. is mearly a tradition based on the Jewish understanding of calendars and events.

Later the church changed this tradition to be on Sun., the first day of the week so that they could reinforce certain teachings to the people. This does not go against the teachings in the scripture about when the sabbath is in that a work week can start on any given day. In fact, I have been asked on many occasions and even on computer programs that I have, when I want the week to start. Thus unless scripture says specifically that the sabbath is Sat. or that there is a scripture that measures the sabbath on a week basis, what you are saying is that the traditions of the Jewish understanding of the sabbath is more important than what God says about the sabbath.

The Pharisees were repremanded by Jesus on many occasions for using the law to oppress the people. When we use the law to try to repremand those whose work does not allow them to worship or rest on a given day of the week, we are then as the pharisees, twisting the law to oppress a people. As discussed earlier, some jobs require 7 day work weeks. Your comments to my post show how little you know me since my husband is my "paper boy". And honoring the sabbath and keeping it holy is not as easy as changing jobs. (We can discuss the reasons for that later if you like.) and as the charismatics are quick to point out, God would have us pay our bills and provide for our families. But by and large, that same people who argue about what day the sabbath is and what we should and should not do on the sabbath are the same people who recieve the daily paper, or eat out after church every week (by the way, we rarely eat out, much less on any weekend day) What is the sabbath? The scriptures say it is a day of rest. In fact, when I resently read Exodus with my children, we see God instructing the people to "pay" the priests for their work. This idea of paying the clergy goes back to early historical referrences and is referred to on any number of occasions in the New Testament. In the old testament, the people went daily to the temple to worship and I have yet to read the scripture that exempts the priests from honoring the sabbath. If you can produce the scripture, I would love to read it. This would include fires for burnt offerings, etc. In fact, there are laws that God Himself spoke to the priests that governed their sabbath and by in large it meant, honor the sabbath and keep it holy. This does not mean to go to church, but rather it means that we should observe a day of rest and not worry about the letter of it's law but rather the heart of that law.

I believe that the has addressed all the issues you raised in relation to my post except one. The law. When we refer to the law and our freedom from it, it does not mean that we are not to follow it. Rom. 3:9-20 In addition to this, we also must understand what the scripture says in 1 Tim. 1:3-11 The law was not given to us so that we might trip up or condem others but rather that we might know how to worship and serve the Lord Jesus Christ. When we focus our attentions on a small part of the law and try to point out to others, the "sin" of their ways, (my words), we abuse the law and therefore, are held accountable to the entire law. It is not a pick and choose thing, and it is consistant not only in understanding but in the totality of scripture. Is it a sin to not keep the sabbath? YES Is it a sin to worship on the sabbath? NO Is it a sin to worship on another day of the week? NO Is the sabbath equivelant to worship? NO Is it a sin to worry about what day of the week the sabbath falls on and thus judge anothers observance of the chosen day of observance? YES Is it a sin to oppress others or to take a part in the oppression of others that prevents them from having a sabbath? YES Is it a sin to not speak up for those who have no voice? YES

deu,
as I told you I will address every single point IN ORDER from here on out, including what you wrote above, WHEN you stop this chaotic method of jumping around. Deal with my post on Gal. 4 point for point and I will respond. When we have agreed or agree to disagree then move on to my post about Col. 2(which was the next verse you had posted). Then deal with that area point for point and so on and so forth. Until we arrive at the present. It is simple and orderly, do you think you can do that either post "NO" or begin with Gal. 4. That's all I have to say to you until you respond in either one or the other method prescribed.

Later the church changed this tradition to be on Sun., the first day of the week so that they could reinforce certain teachings to the people. This does not go against the teachings in the scripture about when the sabbath is in that a work week can start on any given day. (razzelflabben)

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Which Church do you think changed the Sabbath?

k4c,
The verse in Col. does not say "These are only a shadow of what was coming". The word "was" implies past tense and is not found in the original Greek. The word "are" is present tense and the word "come" implies the future or present tense. Considering that this was written nearly 30 yrs following Christ death yet, the manuscript records it as a present shadow of something which is yet to come...speaks enormously. The Sabbath was given as a day of rest memoralizing the creation of God and the rest that He experienced after His creative works. The heavens and earth shall be created again, it stands as a shadow of what is to come! The manuscript impressions are accurate without such a fictitious interpretation thereof. Also your translation says includes the words "only" and "reality". Please show me where in the original Greek where they found these words. They are pure fiction and no such terms appear. This makes your passage, not a translation at all, but a interpretation, and a poor one at that.

Also Rom. 14 has been discussed and the only way one can apply it has having any bearing on the seventh day sabbath is if it specifically metioned it, which it doesn't. Or, if the seventh day sabbath fits the same criteria as the subject which he was speaking of, which again it does not.

k4c said:

Hello to all,

I know I'll probably be in trouble for writing this but it is my thread and I would like to clear something up regarding the Sabbath rest. I pray they don't snuff this post out because it's of God...

To understand God's word we need to grasp the fact that God uses created things (outward/seen) to help us understand spiritual things (inward/invisible).

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Prior to the indwelling Spirit of Christ, the Sabbath rest is literal and had to do with outward regulations. These outward regulations were given to us as a shadow or picture to help us understand what God was going to do within us through Christ.

Col. 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day. These are only a shadow of what was coming: the reality is the body of Christ.

Once we believe into Christ we understand that the law could never make one righteous before God. Christ in us becomes the end of trying to be right with God through following the law.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So now, what form does the law take in our lives now that we're in Christ? The law is now an expression of our love for God and neighbor in this the law will be fulfilled inwardly and will manifest outwardly in our lives.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

The law becomes an expression of our love and not for any other reason was the law put in our hearts by Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

How can we judge or condemn someone in how they express their love to God for we are all servants through Christ? I gather on the Sabbath as an expression of my love for God because He made the Sabbath for me. So for me to remeber it and keep it holy (separate) pleases Him in the same way when I don't use His name in vain. This is between me and my personal relationship with God in love.

The reason why we get offended when someone does things outside of God's law is because God is telling us how to express our love in the ten commandments. It's like when we see a personal friend doing something behind his wife's back that she wouldn't approve of. We get hurt and can't understand why he would do it when he knows his wife wouldn't approve of it, but who are we to judge him, it's between him and his conscience.

Romans 14:4-8 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

So the outward literal Sabbath is an picture of resting inwardly in what Jesus did for us in the fact that we don't work for salvation. It has nothing to do with a literal day but rather an inward experience that God wants us to have daily in the finished work of Christ. God used the seventh day as a picture of this because the number seven in the bible is a picture of completeness. This inward completeness is found only in Christ. The expression of greatfulness and love is in remembering the Sabbath by keeping it holy (separate).

Peace and blessings to you all in Christ,
John

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Hey Kc4

Where You Been? Have not heard from you in in a while. I well be flying to san francisco on the 13 my time. I will spend maybe a day or two there and then will go down to L.A If you are anywhere in that area maybe we could meet face to face I have a couple of things I would like to discuss with you. The Wife is still very interested in what you have to say. There are other Sabbath keepers here who are tired of Adventist legalism .the wife was just looking over my shoulder my shoulder and she said if you come here she will cook you nami nami filipino food. But before you come here you need to talk to her first and maybe see just how fertile the ground is before making that kind of decision. If you did decide to come I will be at sea so you can stay at our house. Granted it will take more time and investigation but the offer is there if you are interested.

yours in Christ
deu58

k4c said:

Hello my brother deu58,

It sounds like an awesome offer but I have a lot of things planned in the next few months. I'm leaving for Honduras for a month in March to build a free medical clinic. The Lord has allowed me to raise the money to pay for all the building and supplies so I'm taking a month vacation from work to head for Honduras, God is an awesome God...

Blessings to you and your better half and always remember, you are blessed to have a wife who loves and serves the Lord.

Peace in Christ,
John

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Hey kc

Well, I did not mean for you to jump on a plane right this minute although that would make the wife happy. But lets not dismiss the Idea completly. Maybe there is someone you can send in your place but I agree lets not do this instantly lets take some time. Iwant to keep in touch. There is a real need here. of course there is a real need everywhere. May God bless your Honduras work. What kind of work do you do?

yours in Christ
deu58

k4c,
Ishmael and Isaac represent the two covenants, which Paul uses in this chapter to symbolically portray what he was trying to say.

Gal. 4:22-25 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free-woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Paul employs Isaac and Ishmael, the sons of Abraham, as representing the Old and New Covenants. Thus, clearly showing that Hagar's son, Ishmael, symbolizes the Old Covenant, and Sarah's son, Isaac, is an example of the New Covenant.

Gal. 4:28-31 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. ... So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

The Lord promised Abraham a son from his wife Sarah, yet she was almost 90 yrs old, so neither of them thought it was possible. Knowing that her womb was barren and that she was to old to bear children, she suggested that her husband take Hagar, her handmaid, and have a child through her. They apparently believed it was the only way to save God from an impossible promise. After time, Abraham succumbed to the idea and conceived a child through Hagar.

This is a precise example of the Old Covenant thinking that Paul is condemning, Abraham tried to solve this with his flesh, according to his ideas and justification. His plan failed, just like the Old Covenant promises failed, because he had not relied on God’s power and instruction.And, of course the Lord never recognized Ishmael as the promised seed.

Heb. 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Yet, the miracle occurred and Isaac was born. The Lord actually created a new life out of a physically dead womb. The biological obstacles ceded to the divine, creative power of the Lord.Isaac thus typifies the foundation of the New Covenant relationship of regeneration, and the re-born experience of the believer. The natural, physical womb of Sarah was completely unable of bearing fruit. By the same manner, the natural, carnal body and mind cannot produce the fruit of obedience, such would be deemed, “dead works”.

Heb. 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb. 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Rom. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Paul was simply trying to eradicate a behavior that had crept into the early church. This behavior had two sides, following the laws of man and the belief that works justified your faith, instead of the other way around. Both put faith in man’s ability and instruction over that of God’s.

When God used His power to create a new life within Sarah, the impossible happened, and she produced a son. When God uses His power to create new life in the soul, the impossible happens again - a human being becomes spiritual and obedient.

Isaac was not "born after the flesh," but "after the Spirit." Gal. 4:29. Because man is carnal and "weak in the flesh," he has no power to attain to the righteousness of the law. He, too, must be born after the Spirit. Every attempt to obey on the Old-Covenant basis of human effort will produce only children of bondage. The law must be written into the heart by the Holy Spirit and fulfilled by "Christ in you."

This allegory of Hagar and Sarah clears up another very important point of truth. Those who are under the Old Covenant are the commandment breakers, and those under the New Covenant are the commandment keepers. It was only when Abraham disobeyed God by taking Hagar that he fulfilled the principle of the Old Covenant. When he trusted God to give him a son through Sarah, he was being obedient to God's will, and properly represents the New-Covenant Christians. Yet we often see modern interpretations get these facts confused. The truth is exactly the opposite. The law is not really kept until it is written on the heart of the transformed believer. Then it becomes the mark of identification - the love symbol - for those who are born of the Spirit. Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments.", John 14:15. John wrote, "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.", 1John 5:3.

The context of this chapter does not relieve man of the Lord's command of Sabbath keeping. Quite the contrary, it enforces it. It does however dismiss any manner of mans choosing to keep it, any way he sees fit. It also clearly informs us that the keeping of the Sabbath is to be performed out of faith and not obligation.

Your ideas on keeping the commands according to your views or those that are taught by men, are expressly forbidden by this chapters teaching. And, it has strengthened my position while totally making void yours.
_________
_________

As well, Rom 14 canot be applied to the Sabbath just because you feel like it. You have shown no scriptural basis for you choosing to do so..

This is like saying that since there is some scripture that shows the Lord instructing His people to destroy unGodly people, then it is ok for you to kill people you feel are unGodly. Would you try and pass off such logic to us? I doubt it. Rather convenient though that you have chose to place the Sabbath as contextual for that chapter even though it makes no mention of it nor does it meat the subject criteria found in that chapter.

If you really believe that you have established this thinking from scripture, precept upon precept, then show us. Don't just cram two things together and try to tell us they fit because you say so. SHOW US.

After reading the last few posts, I am more confused then I was when I first visited this thread as to what the discussion is all about. When I first saw the thread I thought we would be discussing the sabbath, what it is, when we should observe, etc. Then, I find out that all we care about is when the sabbath is. I believe that that subject should have been cleared up in my last post. In that we cannot argue with what the Word of God says. The bottom line being that it doesn't matter when you celebrate the sabbath, there is NO scripture that specifies what day of the week you celebrate but only that you work 6 days and rest the seventh. Plain and simple. How could there be a controvery to that especially from the view that the sabbath is an outward expression of our love for God and our faith in HIm. Bravo, there are many expressions of our love and faith and obedience is absolutely one of those expressions. To read into the law anything about the day of the week we worship is adding to the law and is a sin. In plain terms, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT DAY OF THE WEEK WE SET ASSIDE FOR THE SABBATH. IT DOES MATTER THAT WE OBSERVE THE SABBATH.

After getting involved in this discussion, I find that the discussion has once again changed into something I am still not sure what we are discussing or where the points are unclear. I understand the idea that we are to rest in the Lord and this is a wonderful way to remind us of this truth but once again, I find nothing in the scriptures that say that the sabbath is for reminding us of anything. It was from day one, a day of rest. We can become legalistic about what is work and what is not but the fact remains that it has always been a day of rest. God created man to need sleep. The sleep renews and refreshes the body and without it, man dies. The day of rest though it reminds us of our need to rest in God also is necessary for good physical health. It is a time set aside to walk away from stress and daily struggles and renew our body just as sleep renews our body. If we do not observe this aspect of the sabbath, our lives will be cut short by the exhaustion and stress of life. To change the intrupretation of this idea is no more of a vialation to the law that demanding that Sat. is the only sabbath day.

If I am more confussed about what this thread is discussing than what I think, please clarify it for me. I am interested in the subject but refuse to believe anything that is not scriptural and Godly.

Rom. 14:1-15:13 What is the controversy with this scripture? Should this not override all of our discussions.

razzelflabben said:

After reading the last few posts, I am more confused then I was when I first visited this thread as to what the discussion is all about. When I first saw the thread I thought we would be discussing the sabbath, what it is, when we should observe, etc. Then, I find out that all we care about is when the sabbath is. I believe that that subject should have been cleared up in my last post. In that we cannot argue with what the Word of God says. The bottom line being that it doesn't matter when you celebrate the sabbath, there is NO scripture that specifies what day of the week you celebrate but only that you work 6 days and rest the seventh. Plain and simple. How could there be a controvery to that especially from the view that the sabbath is an outward expression of our love for God and our faith in HIm. Bravo, there are many expressions of our love and faith and obedience is absolutely one of those expressions. To read into the law anything about the day of the week we worship is adding to the law and is a sin. In plain terms, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT DAY OF THE WEEK WE SET ASSIDE FOR THE SABBATH. IT DOES MATTER THAT WE OBSERVE THE SABBATH.

After getting involved in this discussion, I find that the discussion has once again changed into something I am still not sure what we are discussing or where the points are unclear. I understand the idea that we are to rest in the Lord and this is a wonderful way to remind us of this truth but once again, I find nothing in the scriptures that say that the sabbath is for reminding us of anything. It was from day one, a day of rest. We can become legalistic about what is work and what is not but the fact remains that it has always been a day of rest. God created man to need sleep. The sleep renews and refreshes the body and without it, man dies. The day of rest though it reminds us of our need to rest in God also is necessary for good physical health. It is a time set aside to walk away from stress and daily struggles and renew our body just as sleep renews our body. If we do not observe this aspect of the sabbath, our lives will be cut short by the exhaustion and stress of life. To change the intrupretation of this idea is no more of a vialation to the law that demanding that Sat. is the only sabbath day.

If I am more confussed about what this thread is discussing than what I think, please clarify it for me. I am interested in the subject but refuse to believe anything that is not scriptural and Godly.

Rom. 14:1-15:13 What is the controversy with this scripture? Should this not override all of our discussions.

Click to expand...

Hello razzelflabben

Well lets see where to start. Kc4 is a Saturday Sabbath keeper who started this thread. He believes that a person has the right to worship on Sunday if they so desire but he just wanted to present his point in love and let people decide for themselves. Then we had William 1 who was a Sabbath keeper and then he started talking about how he still practices animal sacrifice and now he is gone.

Adam and Symes do not believe you or I have the right to Choose what day we worship they believe we are commanded by God To keep the Saturday Sabbath. If you have read Adams posts he is a self taught bible scholar who although not an Adventist still attends the Adventist
church. Symes is an Adventist. Symes believes that during the Great Tribulation Sunday worship will be the mark of the Beast.

Me I agree with Kc4. Under the law of Christ we can worship either day as long as the worship is in Spirit and truth. The Thadman is a newcomer and I really do not know what his true position is he has not stated it yet. The whole debate on this thread is when is the Sabbath
not how to keep it.

Apparently you wish to discuss a different aspect of the Sabbath so why don't you just go ahead and post a couple of questions or comments
on what you want to talk about so we can get a common ground of your feelings.

In fact I have a question for you already. What in the world is a Razzelflabben?
yours in Christ
Deu58