Understanding meaning of Trinity

[Rescued One]

@ArmyMatt I think it may be in Volume 8.

First or Second Series?

 

[Rescued One]

Check this out:

CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 38 (St. Basil)

Thank you ---I'll try to look at that tonight (when my physical pain goes away)!

 

[All4Christ]

First or Second Series?

Second

 

[James A]

Father, Son and, Holy Spirit are of same nature; it is the operation or functionality that makes them different ( in Person).

While each of these three Person is complete God, there is only one God

 

[ArmyMatt]

Check this out:

CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 38 (St. Basil)

good call

 

[ArmyMatt]

Father, Son and, Holy Spirit are of same nature; it is the operation or functionality that makes them different ( in Person).

While each of these three Person is complete God, there is only one God

to be clear, operation for us is natural, not personal. operation is therefore only One as the Divine Nature is One.

 

[All4Christ]

good call

I’m enjoying refreshing my reading of the writings of the Cappadocian fathers. Very interesting and insightful.

 

[James A]

to be clear, operation for us is natural, not personal. operation is therefore only One as the Divine Nature is One.

Then what makes the Persons different?

This is my understanding regarding the operation. Father created all created things through Son. Father is invisible even to angels and it is Son who physically interact with us. Holy Spirit guides our thoughts and shapes our future.

 

[All4Christ]

to be clear, operation for us is natural, not personal. operation is therefore only One as the Divine Nature is One.

@James A St Gregory of Nyssa talked about the unity of operation as it related to the one nature of God.

But since it is exalted above the understanding of the questioners, and we have to argue from some particular evidence about those things which evade our knowledge , it is absolutely necessary for us to be guided to the investigation of the Divine nature by its operations. If, then, we see that the operations which are wrought by the Father and the Sonand the Holy Spirit differ one from the other, we shall conjecture from the different character of the operations that the natures which operate are also different. For it cannot be that things which differ in their very nature should agree in the form of their operation: fire does not chill, nor ice give warmth, but their operations are distinguished together with the difference between their natures. If, on the other hand, we understand that the operation of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is one, differing or varying in nothing, the oneness of their nature must needs be inferred from the identity of their operation. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit alike give sanctification, and life, and light, and comfort, and all similar graces. And let no one attribute the power of sanctification in a special sense to the Spirit, when he hears the Saviour in the Gospel saying to the Father concerning His disciples, Father, sanctify them in Your name. So too all the other gifts are wrought in those who are worthy alike by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit: every grace and power, guidance, life, comfort, the change to immortality, the passage to liberty, and every other boon that exists, which descends to us.

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Holy Trinity (Gregory of Nyssa)

 

[Oseas]

Is Trinity three different manifestions of one God?

I would not say Trinity, but Triuno. Trying to answer your question in accord my vision:

Yes, there are three distincts Persons. 1John 5:v. 7 - There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, - God the Father - the Word ---> the Word made flesh- JESUS<----, and the Holy Spirit (who is not a Ghost as is written in English language, but a Person, as said JESUS in John 16:v.1-15): and these three are One. (TriUno)

God the Father:
Yeah, the Invisible God. See, the Word is God, yes, the Word is the Invisibled God. For me here is the Great Mystery about God, God the Father, Who created all things, but by/through JESUS, His Son. By the way, JESUS said: John 4:v.23-24-
23 - The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him (the Person of the Father).
24 God (the Word) is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.



God Son - the Word-God-made flesh

1John 5:v.20 - We know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. John 1:v.1 and 14 - 1 In the beginning -in JESUS - was the Word...the Word was God - God the Father, say I -. v.14 - And the Word -God the Father- was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And JESUS said: John 10:v.30 - I and my Father are One. Philippians 2:v.6 - 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

god - Holy Spirit
It is easy to speak about the Father, and about His only Son - Jesus Christ -, but about the person of the Holy Spirit it is very very hard. First he has not genealogy as JESUS has. About the person of the Holy Spirit, JESUS said: John 16:v.13-15 -
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not SPEAK of himself; but whatsoever he shall HEAR, that shall he SPEAK: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall RECEIVE OF MINE, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that HE shall TAKE OF MINE, and shall shew it unto you.


In my vision, the Holy Spirit appears in the book of Revelation as the angel of the LORD. JESUS said: Revelation 22:v. 16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Revelation 22:v.6-9
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Revelation 1:v.1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel (in fact, an archangel)unto his servant John:

And the angel went to meet John on the island of Patmos, and John heard behind him a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying: What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;
John turned to see the voice that spake with him. And being turned, He saw seven golden candlesticks(the seven candlesticks are the seven churches of Asia);
and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one LIKE unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

In fact, it is the Holy Spirit who has worked in the churches, as said JESUS, and now, in the end of the times, he will manifest in person to fight against Satan. Revelation 12:v.7-17


There are many secrets about the person of the Holy Spirit, evidently. First he has not genealogy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Then what makes the Persons different?

This is my understanding regarding the operation. Father created all created things through Son. Father is invisible even to angels and it is Son who physically interact with us. Holy Spirit guides our thoughts and shapes our future.

what makes the Persons different is unknown. we only know that the Persons are distinct. that was a big point of the Cappadocians.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I’m enjoying refreshing my reading of the writings of the Cappadocian fathers. Very interesting and insightful.

nice!

 

[ArmyMatt]

@James A St Gregory of Nyssa talked about the unity of operation as it related to the one nature of God.



CHURCH FATHERS: On the Holy Trinity (Gregory of Nyssa)

it's also implicit in the 6th Council.

 

[James A]

@ArmyMatt @All4Christ

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

While I am respectful to the opinions of Church Fathers, this is what I believe.

Operations that are essential to the nature of God (e.g.Omniscience) are same for all three Persons nonetheless, operations that are accidental or contingent to the nature are different and that makes the Persons distinct. Son and Son alone was crucified - Neither Father nor Holy Spirit.

Isn't this what is described by Catholic doctrines of Ontological Trinity and Economic Trinity?

Hope we are arguing on the literal meaning of "operation"

 

[All4Christ]

@ArmyMatt @All4Christ

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

While I am respectful to the opinions of Church Fathers, this is what I believe.

Operations that are essential to the nature of God (e.g.Omniscience) are same for all three Persons nonetheless, operations that are accidental or contingent to the nature are different and that makes the Persons distinct. Son and Son alone was crucified - Neither Father nor Holy Spirit.

Isn't this what is described by Catholic doctrines of Ontological Trinity and Economic Trinity?

Hope we are arguing on the literal meaning of "operation"

I think the understanding of what is meant by operation certainly could impact our understanding. For example, ontologically, God the Father created all things through the Son and in the Holy Spirit. All three are involved in one operation. Yet through this, one can see that the Father possesses Fatherhood while the Son possesses sonship, which are distinct attributes. It is one will though. The Holy Spirit is the promise of the Father and was given by Christ to us as a gift. Yet unlike the Son, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father but is not begotten. They all are part of the same operations making up the nature of God, but have individual attributes.

Honestly, I haven’t seen it described as economical Trinity vs ontological Trinity though I have read Tertillian’s description of the economy of the Trinity. When I say operation of the persons of the Trinity, I am referencing the core of the operations of God, while acknowledging that there are distinct attributes of each person.

I am tired so I apologize if this doesn’t make sense

 

[Oseas]

About the person of the Holy Spirit, God said to Moses: Exodus 23:v.20-23-
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice,
and do all that I speak
; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.


Acts 7:v.29-33
29 Moses fled and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons.

30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.

31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

33 Then said the Lord to Moses, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.

 

[ArmyMatt]

@ArmyMatt @All4Christ

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

While I am respectful to the opinions of Church Fathers, this is what I believe.

Operations that are essential to the nature of God (e.g.Omniscience) are same for all three Persons nonetheless, operations that are accidental or contingent to the nature are different and that makes the Persons distinct. Son and Son alone was crucified - Neither Father nor Holy Spirit.

Isn't this what is described by Catholic doctrines of Ontological Trinity and Economic Trinity?

Hope we are arguing on the literal meaning of "operation"

well, again, operation as far as Patristics goes is an aspect of nature. the Divine Nature cannot be contingent or accidental, because it just is that it is. so there are no contingent operations that make the Persons distinct. the Three are distinct by Three modes of being (unbegotten, begotten, procession) which are unknown in their distinction aside from that they are distinct.

while true that only the Son was on the Cross, all Three Persons were at work through every aspect of the Incarnation. it's not like the Son was being crucified while the Father and the Spirit were off doing other things.

 

[Oseas]

The person of the Holy Spirit is a warrior. Isaiah 63:v.1-11 - wonderful revelations

1 Who is this that cometh from EDOM, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. (Revelation 19:v.11-15)

4 For the Day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. (1Thes.4:v.16)

5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.

8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.

9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence -the person of the Holy Spirit - saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. (Exodus 14:v.19-20 among others)

10 But they REBELLED, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he -the Holy Spirit - was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

 

[James A]

well, again, operation as far as Patristics goes is an aspect of nature. the Divine Nature cannot be contingent or accidental, because it just is that it is. so there are no contingent operations that make the Persons distinct. the Three are distinct by Three modes of being (unbegotten, begotten, procession) which are unknown in their distinction aside from that they are distinct.

while true that only the Son was on the Cross, all Three Persons were at work through every aspect of the Incarnation. it's not like the Son was being crucified while the Father and the Spirit were off doing other things.

Agree, the properties of divine nature are essential however, those properties that are relevant to the physical/human world are accidental. In fact, the physical properties must be accidental because divine properties and physical properties are mutually exclusive. E.g. an entity cannot be atemporal ( timeless) and temporal (time-bound) at the same time by definition. To be precise, a timeless person cannot even engage in a conversation because there is just one moment - eternal present - in the timeless world however, we know God not only have talked to us but also became one of us.

The Creed says Father, Son and, Holy Spirit are consubstantial, coeternal and, coequal. The three Persons have exactly the same nature so, the terms "unbegotten", "begotten" and, "procession" should not be understood literally. What they mean, in my opinion, is that the operations or functions of three Persons related to the physical world are different. E.g. Creation is one act but the Persons performed three different operations. Now that the physical attributes of God are accidental, having different functions in the physical world does not introduce contradiction.

All the Persons are at work always - even when Son manifested as pillar of fire and cloud before Israelites or when Son was a fetus or when He died; but Son and Son alone was crucified and He is the sole Mediator.

Sabellianism - Wikipedia

 

[James A]

Adding to post #39

I believe there is another reason why the physical attributes must be contingent.

The degree of Gods interaction with the human world changed - "eye for an eye" changed to "show the other cheek" - and this is not considered God mutating because the physical attributes are contingent.