Understanding John's Chronology

[iamlamad]

John did not have the convenience of punctuation marks such as we have today: ([{ - )}]. But John DID use parentheses. We discover them by study and prayer.

Here is one that it seems almost everyone misses.


Rev 11:
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
...
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.)
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; ...

For TIMING and CHRONOLOGY, follow the red letters and jump over the parenthesis in green! This is the intent of the Author!

For chronology:
Rev. 11:1
11:2
11:3
Parenthesis
11:14
11:15

Until you understand where John wrote parenthesis you will never understand John's chronology.
|--------> 42 months of trampling (probably starts just before the abomination)
|--------> 1260 days of testifying (starts just 3.5 days before the abomination)
MIDPOINT ABOMININATION
|--------> 1260 days of fleeing (starts just after the abomination)
|--------> 3.5 years of protection (starts just after the abomination)
|--------> 42 months of authority (starts a while after the abomination)

The "|" is the starting point of all 5 countdowns, but it is a staggered start. These 5 counts will not begin on the same day.

John shows us 5 parallel time channels to the end, all running parallel or simultaneously. All are to be for the last half of the week.

The intent of the Author is that the two witnesses begin their testimony just 3.5 days before the abomination, then testify for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3.5 days from the end of the week. They lay dead for those 3.5 days, and are raised back to life at the 7th vial.

Also at the 7th vial is when God will raise the rest of the Old Testament saints.

 

[BABerean2]

John DID use parentheses. We discover them by study and prayer.

What you mean is, you add them to the text to make your doctrine work.

If the "time of the judgment of the dead" is in Revelation 11:18, you claim it is a "parenthesis" to make your doctrine work.

Maybe nobody will notice that the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the Bible.

Can you add a "parenthesis" to create an 8th trumpet?

.

 

[iamlamad]

What you mean is, you add them to the text to make your doctrine work.

If the "time of the judgment of the dead" is in Revelation 11:18, you claim it is a "parenthesis" to make your doctrine work.

Maybe nobody will notice that the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the Bible.

Can you add a "parenthesis" to create an 8th trumpet?

.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There. This will be AFTER the 7th trumpet. Case closed. Don't ever use your argument again! It seems you struggle to count.

 

[BABerean2]

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There. This will be AFTER the 7th trumpet. Case closed. Don't ever use your argument again! It seems you struggle to count.

I can count at least to 8 on my fingers, and there is no 8th trumpet in the Book of Revelation.

Therefore the trumpet in the text above is the 7th trumpet, and is the same as the "last" trumpet in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

No need to use Calculus, here.

.

 

[iamlamad]

I can count at least to 8 on my fingers, and there is no 8th trumpet in the Book of Revelation.

Therefore the trumpet in the text above is the 7th trumpet, and is the same as the "last" trumpet in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

No need to use Calculus, here.

.

Sorry, but the 7th trumpet in Revelation is midpoint, not the end. So much for your theories: always off.

 

[BABerean2]

Sorry, but the 7th trumpet in Revelation is midpoint, not the end. So much for your theories: always off.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;




Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Will you through study and prayer create a "parenthesis", in the passage above?

.

 

[Davy]

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There. This will be AFTER the 7th trumpet. Case closed. Don't ever use your argument again! It seems you struggle to count.

It's the doctrine you are following that is "off". The pre-trib rapture theory of man is making you try to force their timing into God's Word when no such timing exists in His Word.

When Jesus said that in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 about sending His angels to gather the saints, that was the very last sign He gave there upon the Mount of Olives. That means it's the LAST event to occur at the end of this world. And that is what Rev.11 with the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe is also showing, and also the 7th vial, and also the latter part of the 6th seal. The event of His one-time of coming includes His return to the Mount of Olives per Acts 1 and Zech.14. It will be on the "day of the Lord" which is to come "as a thief in the night" which is the final event that will destroys man's works off this earth by fire. And Jesus said He comes "as a thief" in Rev.16:15.

 

[iamlamad]

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;




Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Will you through study and prayer create a "parenthesis", in the passage above?

.

It is a prophecy. Just read who said it.

 

[iamlamad]

It's the doctrine you are following that is "off". The pre-trib rapture theory of man is making you try to force their timing into God's Word when no such timing exists in His Word.

When Jesus said that in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 about sending His angels to gather the saints, that was the very last sign He gave there upon the Mount of Olives. That means it's the LAST event to occur at the end of this world. And that is what Rev.11 with the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe is also showing, and also the 7th vial, and also the latter part of the 6th seal. The event of His one-time of coming includes His return to the Mount of Olives per Acts 1 and Zech.14. It will be on the "day of the Lord" which is to come "as a thief in the night" which is the final event that will destroys man's works off this earth by fire. And Jesus said He comes "as a thief" in Rev.16:15.

This is absolutely not true. I take every scripture for exactly what it says. What scripture do you imagine a pretrib rapture does not do justice to?

You imagine that God can have only ONE gathering. Can you prove that? No, you cannot.

No, just because Jesus said something last does not prove it will happen last! That is silly! We must go by the words He said, not when He said it.

NO NO NO! You cannot say the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial all happen at the end. What kind of exegesis is that?

You are missing something HUGE in your theories.
The seals are sealing a document. The document (Rev. 8 onward) cannot be opened until all seals are opened. Then the document can be opened and the trumpet judgments will come.

In other words, no trumpet judgment can be sounded until all seals are opened, because the trumpets are written inside the scroll.

Anyway, your theory is simply not the way it is written. Why would you imagine, since JOhn numbered teh seals, the trumpets, the vials and the woes, all for proper sequencing, that anything else would NOT be in order. I would rather think you would guess all the rest would be in order.

Finally, it makes perfect sense in the order it is written in. There is no need to rearrange. And if you do rearrange to make a theory fit, you can know that theory is wrong.

You mention "One time coming." Again this is theory that cannot be proved and is not true anyway.

Jesus comes in the thief in the night, and his coming will trigger the rapture. The rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. We can learn this from 1 Thes. 4 & 5. So the DAY comes as a thief because HE comes as a thief. Paul's "sudden destruction" will be as we say the first salvo of the Day of the Lord. This is what John wrote in the last verse of Rev. 6. And it is a LONG way from there to the 7th vial that ends the week.

Therefore you are mistaken again, not believing John in Chapter 6. Or imagining the 6th seal might be close to the end. No, the 6th seal will be the first event of judgment.

Sorry, but I cannot agree with much you say here. None of it fits scripture as written. I know you think it does, but it really does not. The gathering in Matthew 24 is not the rapture. Did you ever notice where this gathering gathers FROM?

 

[BABerean2]

It is a prophecy. Just read who said it.

Yes. It is a prophecy. God said it.

The text says He will judge both the living and the dead at His appearing.

.

 

[Davy]

This is absolutely not true. I take every scripture for exactly what it says. What scripture do you imagine a pretrib rapture does not do justice to?

What is "absolutely not true" are statements you have made like the following:

Sorry, but the 7th trumpet in Revelation is midpoint, not the end.

In reality, the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe is... the very end of this world. The pre-trib rapture doctrine you follow presuposes a tribulation period after that 7th trumpet instead, which of course such an idea is nowhere written in God's Word. So if you want to offer challenges, then you must accept challenges...

So where... is it written in God's Word that the tribulation Jesus warned of begins after that 7th trumpet?

 

[iamlamad]

What is "absolutely not true" are statements you have made like the following:



In reality, the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe is... the very end of this world. The pre-trib rapture doctrine you follow presuposes a tribulation period after that 7th trumpet instead, which of course such an idea is nowhere written in God's Word. So if you want to offer challenges, then you must accept challenges...

So where... is it written in God's Word that the tribulation Jesus warned of begins after that 7th trumpet?

Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong. Your theories will certainly be proven wrong.

In case you missed it, there will be 6 vials of God's wrath with plagues that will come BETWEEN the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial that ends the week.

Why do you rearrange? Why not get a theory that FITS the word as written? The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. Did you not notice that the fleeing begins immediately after the 7th trumpet?

The says of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will not begin until after the 14th chapter. Did you not read that the beheaded begin to show up in heaven in chapter 15?

Sorry, but your theories simply do not follow what is written, and will be proven wrong.

 

[Douggg]

For chronology:
Rev. 11:1
11:2
11:3
Parenthesis
11:14
11:15

lamad, what about this instead....

Revelation 9 the second woe of the 6th trumpet ending in 9:21
Parenthesis
Revelation 11:14-15 the third woe coming with the 7th trumpet

Until you understand where John wrote parenthesis you will never understand John's chronology.
|--------> 42 months of trampling (probably starts just before the abomination)
|--------> 1260 days of testifying (starts just 3.5 days before the abomination)
MIDPOINT ABOMININATION
|--------> 1260 days of fleeing (starts just after the abomination)
|--------> 3.5 years of protection (starts just after the abomination)
|--------> 42 months of authority (starts a while after the abomination)

sigh.... you still don't get it. Revelation 12 establishes where all of the 1260 day and the time, times, half times go.

1260 days.... the war in heaven, some earth time passes............. leaving a time, times, half times.

In chronological order:

In the first half
1260 days Revelation 11:3, 12:6

In the second half
the 3 1/2 days Revelation 11:11
42 months Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2 - containing the time, times, half times Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

_____________________________________________________________________________

1260 days first half; then 3 1/2 days, leaving 1256.5 days (42 months), which the 42 months contains the time, times, half times, (a little less than the 42 months to account for the amount of earth time that passes as the war in heaven takes place).

That's the reason there are three time expressions of
1260 days
42 months
time, times, half times

 

[iamlamad]

lamad, what about this instead....

Revelation 9 the second woe of the 6th trumpet ending in 9:21
Parenthesis
Revelation 11:14-15 the third woe coming with the 7th trumpet




sigh.... you still don't get it. Revelation 12 establishes where all of the 1260 day and the time, times, half times go.

1260 days.... the war in heaven, some earth time passes............. leaving a time, times, half times.

In chronological order:

In the first half
1260 days Revelation 11:3, 12:6

In the second half
the 3 1/2 days Revelation 11:11
42 months Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2 - containing the time, times, half times Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

_____________________________________________________________________________

1260 days first half; then 3 1/2 days, leaving 1256.5 days (42 months), which the 42 months contains the time, times, half times, (a little less than the 42 months to account for the amount of earth time that passes as the war in heaven takes place).

That's the reason there are three time expressions of
1260 days
42 months
time, times, half times

No, this theory has to jumble up John's perfect chronology. Sorry, but it is you who is not getting this. ANY theory that must rearrange John's chronology will be proven wrong. You would do well to believe that statement.

The truth is, God gave us the very same time in three different ways, to be sure we would get it. Yet it seems you still don't.

Did you not notice that when Jesus was giving us these things in Matthew 24, He totally skipped over the first half of the week, starting the "end" with the abomination? That is a clue you have missed. John also does NOT COVER the first half as far as timing; NONE of the mentions of the 3.5 years are for the first half. You just imagine they are.

YOu still don't know where John is in TIME. And that is now wonder, because you imagine you can rearrange to fit some theory.

What did Jesus tell those in Judea to do? Did He not tell them to flee the moment they see the abomination? That is what John is showing is in 12:6. It is now past the abomination by a second or two, and they are starting to flee, having just seen the abomination.

The 42 months of trampling is the first mention of the timing of the last half, and it comes in 11:1-2. Contrary to your theory, John does not dance around with time. 11:1-2 is just before the midpoint. 11:3 is AFTER 11:1-2, but probably only a second or two after. I say that because God's timing is always perfect. The two witnesses show up then because the man of sin showed up then.

Next, marching right through time correctly, not dancing around, the next event will be the abomination. Then those in Judea will flee, having seen the abomination. Next, John wrote of the war in heaven, but my guess is, it started with the 7th trumpet as the signal for Michael to go to war.

Again, your theory requires you to rearrange things into what you imagine is the right order, when instead, you make a mess out of it. Trust me, your theory will be proven wrong.

Your theory does show you have spent time on this, and your time was not wasted.

 

[BABerean2]

Did you not notice that when Jesus was giving us these things in Matthew 24, He totally skipped over the first half of the week, starting the "end" with the abomination? That is a clue you have missed. John also does NOT COVER the first half as far as timing; NONE of the mentions of the 3.5 years are for the first half. You just imagine they are.

Christ skipped over the first half of the week because there is no 7 year tribulation period anywhere in the Bible.

John 10:22 reveals the timing of Daniel's Abomination of Desolation, which occurred during 167 BC.

What do you know about Hanukkah?

Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel Gospel accounts, because we find the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in both accounts.

.

 

[Douggg]

No, this theory has to jumble up John's perfect chronology.

The chronology has to be determined according to the information found in the bible.

You are laying claim to your chronology as being John's, but it is not. The chronology that you are presenting is lamad's chronology.

The truth is, God gave us the very same time in three different ways, to be sure we would get it. Yet it seems you still don't.

That's pretty funny. Why not just say 1260 days - everywhere - if 1260 days were what was meant everywhere?

 

[iamlamad]

The chronology has to be determined according to the information found in the bible.

You are laying claim to your chronology as being John's, but it is not. The chronology that you are presenting is lamad's chronology.



That's pretty funny. Why not just say 1260 days - everywhere - if 1260 days were what was meant everywhere?

This is myth. John wrote it, I only believe it.

This is a very simple question with a simple answer. When John wrote 1260 days, it will be accurate to the exact day. When He wrote 42 months, it will not be accurate to an exact day.

In truth, the chronology is determined by the order in which John wrote. There is no need to rearrange.

Perhaps, since some here are so determined to rearrange, can you show us any kind of reasoning with scripture as to WHY you imagine it must be rearranged?

 

[Douggg]

This is a very simple question with a simple answer. When John wrote 12260 days, it will be accurate to the exact day. When He wrote 42 months, it will not be accurate to an exact day.

I explained to you why there are three different time expressions are used.

My bible is arranged the same as your bible. What is different is your interpretation. You interpret the 42 months in Revelation 11:2 as being 1260 days, not even wondering why it is expressed differently from the very next verse,

And it doesn't cross your mind why it is expressed 1260 days before the war in heaven in Revelation 12, and a time, times, half times after the war in heaven.

.

 

[iamlamad]

I explained to you why there are three different time expressions are used.

My bible is arranged the same as your bible. What is different is your interpretation. You interpret the 42 months in Revelation 11:2 as being 1260 days, not even wondering why it is expressed differently from the very next verse,

And it doesn't cross your mind why it is expressed 1260 days before the war in heaven in Revelation 12, and a time, times, half times after the war in heaven.

.

Of course you explained to me, but that does not make it truth - and I don't believe you have the truth here.
I know why it is 42 months instead of 1260 days. The 1260 days of testifying will be exactly 1260 days of testifying. But the 42 months of trampling will not be exactly 1260 days. The Man of sin may arrive one day before the two witnesses show up, so that the days of trampling may be one day longer. On the other end, it may be that those Gentile armies LEAVE the city a day or two before the exact end of the 42 months and get themselves into the valley in preparation for Armageddon.

Sorry, but the war in heaven is a separate event to the 1260 days. The war will begin at the same time the fleeing will begin: at the sounding of the 7th trumpet when the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple.

6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

Notice that as soon as the devil is cast down, He goes after the woman. But not in and of himself: He will use the man of sin turned Beast. Notice that even though the woman began to flee in verse 6, she is STILL FLEEING when Satan is cast down. so she is protected supernaturally AS she is fleeing. She will then be protected for 3 1/2 years. Notice that this 3 1/2 years is the VERY SAME TIME as the 1260 days, only given in years instead of months. both time frames reference supernatural feeding.

Therefore to imagine the 1260 days if for the first half of the week is just plain silly. It is human reasoning gone off the deep end. John is NOT jumping back and forth from the first half to the back half. The first half took place during the trumpet judgments. All of these time frames are for the second half.

May I suggest you just dump all your theories into file 13 and start over - this time forming theories that FIT without any rearranging?

John (and the Holy Spirit) have explained the last three years in three different ways, to help us understand the last half of the week. Yet some wish to make it far more complicated that God did.

 

[Douggg]

Therefore to imagine the 1260 days if for the first half of the week is just plain silly.

You are the person who is saying that Revelation is straight through chronologically speaking. Why are you contradicting yourself when it comes to Revelation 12?

The 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 are before the war in heaven in Revelation 12:7-9. And the time, times, half times in 12:14 is after the war in heaven.

May I suggest you just dump all your theories into file 13 and start over - this time forming theories that FIT without any rearranging?

You are the guy rearranging Revelation 12. In the text, the time, times, half times is after the war in heaven. But you want to also have the 1260 days after the war in heaven, in spite of the fact in text the 1260 days come before the war in heaven.