Understanding Islam

Zeek · Aug 25, 2014

Aryeh Jay said:
Did you ever read the 66 books before Matthew that take up more than 2/3 of the Christian Bible?

I agree it isn't all lovey dovey hippie peace...hard times and harsh judgment sometimes, and yet when you read of someone like King David who had an intimate relationship with G-d, you get an overall sense of G-ds love, especially in the Psalms....same with Abraham and Moses.

66 is the total of books in the whole bible...39 in the Tenakh, and 27 in the New Covenant...at least from the Protestant perspective.

Also I know people like to speak of the New Covenant writings as the Christian Bible or Testament...it is in fact a Jewish book, and all the main characters are Jewish...the word Christian was devised as a derogatory term because the old school hard-liners did not associate the teachings with the true faith and thought of the Jews that believed in Jesus as heretics.

Rationalt · Aug 25, 2014

gordRedeemed said:
Perhaps to learn more about Islam you should talk to Muslims and not other Christians who 'read the Quran? That's like a Muslim saying they understand Christianity because they have read the Bible and chat about the Bible with other Muslims.

Or better actually read the Quran and Authentic muslim exegesis(The tafsirs).

Zeek · Aug 25, 2014

WoodrowX2 said:
Any one who teaches violence is not teaching what I find Islam to be.

No one can afford to take the chance that other Moslems think as you do, especially as more and more are being radicalized in the West and it is estimated that over 100,000,000 Moslems are extremists...also the world perceives Islam by the people that claim to represent Islam, and you would have to admit it doesn't paint a pretty picture.

WoodrowX2 · Aug 25, 2014

Rationalt said:
Or better actually read the Quran and Authentic muslim exegesis(The tafsirs).

Keep in mind the Tafsir are not scripture and are the opinions of humans that lived long after Muhammad. Even the Earliest ones, such as Kathir are not to be taken as the views of all Muslims. While the Majority of Sunni Muslims do agree with Kathir not all do. I may be wrong but I believe the Majority of Shi'ite and Ahmadiyyah disagree considerably with Kathir.

The most common criticism of Kathir is:

To cover all of the references, Ibn Kathir has also collected some weak Ahadith and Israelitish stories. Some repetitions also occur in it, as and when the topics required these.

SOURCE

Kathir is also subject to Translation errors if one is not reading the original Arabic,

But I am glad to see you are looking at the views of more than one or 2 Muslims. There is quite often differences of opinion among us.

WoodrowX2 · Aug 25, 2014

Zeek said:
No one can afford to take the chance that other Moslems think as you do, especially as more and more are being radicalized in the West and it is estimated that over 100,000,000 Moslems are extremists...also the world perceives Islam by the people that claim to represent Islam, and you would have to admit it doesn't paint a pretty picture.

I will agree that over 100,000,000 are extremists. But a much lower number would ever engage in physical violence.

dcalling · Aug 25, 2014

WoodrowX2 said:
To submit to God one must at a minimum do the 5 pillars of of faith to the best of their ability and knowledge. those being:

I just realized a big difference between Muslims and Christians. To be a Muslim at minimum you must do the 5 pillars, but to be a Christian you have to reborn from spirit.

gord44 · Aug 25, 2014

dcalling said:
I just realized a big difference between Muslims and Christians. To be a Muslim at minimum you must do the 5 pillars, but to be a Christian you have to reborn from spirit.

To be a Muslim you just have to do the shahadah with conviction. Then you are supposed to follow at minimum, the 5 pillars, one of which is the shahadah, to the best of your ability. I am sure many Muslims will never make it to Mecca, but they are still Muslim.

Aryeh Jay · Aug 25, 2014

dcalling said:
I just realized a big difference between Muslims and Christians. To be a Muslim at minimum you must do the 5 pillars, but to be a Christian you have to reborn from spirit.

My oldest daughter converted to Christianity and just loves how easy and simple it is.

Being a pious Muslim or Jew is not easy.

dcalling · Aug 25, 2014

Aryeh Jay said:
My oldest daughter converted to Christianity and just loves how easy and simple it is.

Being a pious Muslim or Jew is not easy.

I know for sure been a Jew is hard, I am trying to following all the commandments that I can follow (I am semi vegetarian so no worry about meat), the not working/do anything on Sabbath along is hard enough, I am assuming if it is for God then that engine fire drive to Church is OK. Even David ate food from the temple

A lot of constraint on Muslims as well, raince noise, leg etc before prayer, not doing so can result in food in fire. But for Muslims it is much easier, because I heard that as long as you do a perfect wudu/prayer all your sins are forgiven, and there is no Sabbath restrictions.

Been a Christian is easy, you have to reborn from spirit (total change). I hardly give $200 a year when I was an atheist, but now with help from God, 10% before tax is a breeze Doesn't mean we are perfect, I got so many faults, just my temper alone got me banned for posting beheaded kids pictures in Iraq, but I always repent my sins and try my best to change, because God loves us.

Aryeh Jay · Aug 25, 2014

dcalling said:
I know for sure been a Jew is hard, I am trying to following all the commandments that I can follow (I am semi vegetarian so no worry about meat), the not working/do anything on Sabbath along is hard enough, I am assuming if it is for God then that engine fire drive to Church is OK. Even David ate food from the temple

A lot of constraint on Muslims as well, raince noise, leg etc before prayer, not doing so can result in food in fire. But for Muslims it is much easier, because I heard that as long as you do a perfect wudu/prayer all your sins are forgiven, and there is no Sabbath restrictions.

Been a Christian is easy, you have to reborn from spirit (total change). I hardly give $200 a year when I was an atheist, but now with help from God, 10% before tax is a breeze Doesn't mean we are perfect, I got so many faults, just my temper alone got me banned for posting beheaded kids pictures in Iraq, but I always repent my sins and try my best to change, because God loves us.

Yes, saving lives is permitted on Shabbat and my Muslim neighbors ensure my family has hot food on most Shabbats when cooking is forbidden to us.

WoodrowX2 · Aug 25, 2014

dcalling said:
I just realized a big difference between Muslims and Christians. To be a Muslim at minimum you must do the 5 pillars, but to be a Christian you have to reborn from spirit.

Not much different as a person reborn will find them self doing things very similar to the 5 pillars of Islam. Works done out of Joy, not by command.

A person could skip doing all of the 5 pillars and no one would ever know, unless the person openly states they refuse to do them and will not do them.

I know when I was a Christian, reborn and "Filled with the Spirit" my life changed considerably from my pre-Christian years. I experienced a strong spiritual growth that resulted in many "works". That included but not limited to:

Increased Charity to others

a desire to fast as part of growth

Spreading the Word of Jesus(as)

An insatiable appetite to learn and live in the path of the Apostles

The gift of speaking in tongues when filled with the joy of the spirit

Following the 5 pillars is not much different as no one will ever know if any other person is or is not doing the 5 pillars. That is known only between the individual and God(swt) There is no way any Muslim can give 'Proof" he is doing the 5 pillars. there is no way we can know if any person is doing them, not even the person closest to us. It is strictly between the individual and God(swt)

Doing the 5 pillers is a "Gift" one becomes aware of when they sincerely turn their life fully to God(swt) The 5 Pillars will not get anyone into heaven, but they become what a person desires to do when they have fully given them self to God(swt) and place all in His control.

dcalling · Aug 25, 2014

WoodrowX2 said:
Not much different as a person reborn will find them self doing things very similar to the 5 pillars of Islam. Works done out of Joy, not by command.

A person could skip doing all of the 5 pillars and no one would ever know, unless the person openly states they refuse to do them and will not do them.

I know when I was a Christian, reborn and "Filled with the Spirit" my life changed considerably from my pre-Christian years. I experienced a strong spiritual growth that resulted in many "works". That included but not limited to:

Increased Charity to others

a desire to fast as part of growth

Spreading the Word of Jesus(as)

An insatiable appetite to learn and live in the path of the Apostles

The gift of speaking in tongues when filled with the joy of the spirit

Following the 5 pillars is not much different as no one will ever know if any other person is or is not doing the 5 pillars. That is known only between the individual and God(swt) There is no way any Muslim can give 'Proof" he is doing the 5 pillars. there is no way we can know if any person is doing them, not even the person closest to us. It is strictly between the individual and God(swt)

Doing the 5 pillers is a "Gift" one becomes aware of when they sincerely turn their life fully to God(swt) The 5 Pillars will not get anyone into heaven, but they become what a person desires to do when they have fully given them self to God(swt) and place all in His control.

Similar but very different, to be a Christian you have to be reborn of spirit, which I think both of us did, and the results are clear (except I don't speak in tones).

However in Christianity actions are not a requirement, all the rituals of pray 5 times a day, go to Meca, as long as you are reborn of spirit none is necessary.

And in that respect, you are still a Christian, just now you also accept Quran (which after study I have decided it has too many Muhammad's word in it).

simplegifts · Aug 26, 2014

Beyond Jihad: Critical Voices from Inside Islam - Google Books

WoodrowX2 · Aug 26, 2014

simplegifts said:
Beyond Jihad: Critical Voices from Inside Islam - Google Books

Keep in mind all Authors are biased. Syed Kamran Mirza is quite anti-Islam and an author for FaithFreedom HERE

I do support a person reading all available views of all things.

Hopefully those who read the views of Dr. Mirza are aware his opinion is no less nor more valuable than those who have an opposite Opinion.

I will give Dr Mirza credit that in his book he does point out there are other views.

SOURCE

I do encourage people to look at all views and do their own thinking and evaluation to determine which opinion is the most accurate.

Religion like Politics is often emotionally charged and highly influenced by personal bias,

I hope all people have the wisdom to look at alternate views in all matters. In the case of Books, it often helps to learn about the author and find what facets may tend to skew their opinions.

For those who read Dr. Mirza's books I do pray they take the time to also look at the views of people such as:

Dr. Mohammad Adam El-Sheikh

Dr. Mohammad Adam El-Sheikh is a known counselor in the Northern Virginia area. His areas of expertise are as an Arbitration, Mediation, and Conflict Resolution provider. Specializes in performing Legal and Religious marriages as well as Religious Divorces. Entertain disputes between employees and employers, business partners, and all legals and religious disputes except criminal cases. Education University of Maryland Baltimore County Certificate, TESOL 2002 Certified Teacher Mediation and Arbitration in Shariah.

SOURCE

Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan: The Muslim Gandhi

Khan and Gandhi were united in the fight for independence against the British rulers. Many people described Khan as the 'Muslim Gandhi.' When Khan died in Pakistan in 1988, people in both Pakistan and India mourned.
Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan and Mahatma Gandhi

Both Gandhi and Khan fought for freedom and an undivided India

Seeing Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan next to Mahatma Gandhi was an almost comical sight. Khan, who was well over six feet tall and weighed more than 100 kilos, seemed to overshadow the small, thin Gandhi. Khan could be very vocal when making a point while Gandhi was very shy and softly spoken by nature. They had a very unusual friendship. Gandhi was a Hindu and Khan a Muslim. Khan popularized Gandhi's teachings among Muslims. Some one hundred thousand Muslims joined his "Khudai Khidmatgar" or "Servers of Allah" movement. In time Khan convinced them of the need to follow Mahatma Gandhi's philosophy.

SOURCE

Zeek · Aug 26, 2014

Islam is a religious ideology and at its core is submission to the Qur'an and the teachings around the Qur'an, it cannot take away the sin in a person and gives no guarantee of forgiveness and an eternal inheritance that is trustworthy.

In contrast the Gospel of Jesus the Messiah proclaims and guarantees forgiveness of sins through the atonement, and clearly stipulates that there is no other way/path/method to salvation, because all other attempts to live purely before a holy G-d are not initiated by G-d Himself, but are rooted in the heart of man and the spiritual wickedness that sets itself in opposition to the truth.

Millions of Moslems are turning to Jesus for salvation every year, because Islam does not satisfy, it does not have the answers to the deepest cries in the human heart and is ultimately in opposition to the gospel.

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. (1 Cor 13:1-3)

Aryeh Jay · Aug 26, 2014

Zeek said:
Millions of Moslems are turning to Jesus for salvation every year, because Islam does not satisfy, it does not have the answers to the deepest cries in the human heart and is ultimately in opposition to the gospel.

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. (1 Cor 13:1-3)

I keep hearing that and yet have never met one or know anybody that has met one. Perhaps the United states in not a diverse enough country with a large enough population to notice. I do know plenty of Christians that have become Muslim and a few that have become Jewish however.

gord44 · Aug 26, 2014

Zeek said:
Millions of Moslems are turning to Jesus for salvation every year, because Islam does not satisfy, it does not have the answers to the deepest cries in the human heart

It goes both ways friend. I was surprised at how touching some of the conversion stories were of Christians finding great peace in reverting to Islam.

Zeek · Aug 26, 2014

Originally Posted by Zeek

Millions of Moslems are turning to Jesus for salvation every year, because Islam does not satisfy, it does not have the answers to the deepest cries in the human heart

Aryeh Jay said:
I keep hearing that and yet have never met one or know anybody that has met one. Perhaps the United states in not a diverse enough country with a large enough population to notice. I do know plenty of Christians that have become Muslim and a few that have become Jewish however.

Last week I spoke with a Pastor who is heavily involved in the Arab world and constantly sees Moslems turn to Jesus...but the very nature of what is happening means that to advertize it too much would put many peoples lives at risk and close down some very effective ministries.

If you are inclined, there is a good book called 'Son of Hamas' which talks about the son of a Hamas leader, who eventually began to help the Israelis and eventually left Islam and became a Christian...it is not without its critics (what is these days) but actually gives a very human insight into what motivates some Palestinian Arabs to commit acts of terror.

Also have a glance at this web-site which touches on the whole issue of Moslems turning to Jesus.

I have spoken to Moslems many times, and recently spoke to one who claimed to have previously been a Christian...however when pressed it became obvious that his previous 'faith' was more mental ascent than a living day to day reality. I dare say there may be a number of Christians that have become Moslems, but nothing like what is happening in the Moslem world.

I also know several Christians that have become Jewish, and in fact shortly after I became a Christian and was living in Israel I wanted to become an Israeli citizen, but was told I had to become Jewish...I toyed with the idea of hiding my faith and going through the motions, but realized this would have been dishonest and was not the way.

Why Muslims Are Becoming the Best Evangelists | Christianity Today

gord44 · Aug 26, 2014

Shocking that 'Christianity Today' has an article that tells how many Muslims have turned to Jesus and are becoming the best evangelists. Such unbiased articles are really intriguing.

Zeek · Aug 26, 2014

Originally Posted by Zeek

Millions of Moslems are turning to Jesus for salvation every year, because Islam does not satisfy, it does not have the answers to the deepest cries in the human heart

gordRedeemed said:
It goes both ways friend. I was surprised at how touching some of the conversion stories were of Christians finding great peace in reverting to Islam.

You can find similar stories amongst Mormons, JW's, Buddhists...but we are talking of things on a grand scale, not pockets of individuals who have a story to tell as there will always be a number that present a different view... in many situations Moslems converts face appalling difficulties and dangers, and yet they turn to Jesus even if it costs them everything.

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