Understanding Islam

[WoodrowX2]

As for Homosexuality there are very few Authenticate Ahadith (That is the plural of Hadith) that address it. Some of the Madhabs of Shariah consider homosexuality to be objections Sexual Behavior. The punish ment if any will depend on What Madhab is followed and how the local courts have decided.

Wow, that completely contradicts all that I have known about Sharia law. What about other practices, though?
Such as cutting off hands for theft and execution for apostasy. Both seem to be based on the Quoran, so would these be acceptable punishments?



It's not so much the death penalty per se that I am worried about. The US employs the death penalty and though I do not support it, I do not fear its use in capital punishments.
However, I do see problems when the death penalty - or any other barbaric penalty - is applied to rules that I consider inherently flawed. Such as, aforementioned homosexuality, apostasy, theft (here, cutting off hands) or adultery.

I appreciate that you have provided a (in my humble opinion) very moderate school of legal thought. But is that school the most widespread among Muslims? If there were a caliphate, how would one choose which legal system to follow?



The way I understand it, except for the Islamic State, the Islamic nations have a set of secular criminal courts and Sharia civil courts, which would explain the discrepancy. This is, of course, a relief - but does this reflect the views of the Quoran and Muslim world, or is it a remnant of Westernization? (i.e. what is the dynamic of social development: will there be a larger influence of Islamic jurisprudence as time progresses, or will there be a more secular approach)



Again, thank you for taking time to write.

The Chopping of a hand for theft, is actually seen as a better choice than imprisonment for many Mideasterners. While it is a permitted punishment it is not mandatory. At the discretion of the court other options can be used such as fines, Jail or both. Inthe few Nations that are known to use it, it is the punishment of choice as selected by the population. Arabs in particular would choose it over even a short jail sentence. While you and I may dislike it, I think the populace has a right to determine the punishments used for various crimes. What is cruel in New York might be seen as kindness in Riyadh or Kabul.

The Death penalty for apostasy is quite complex. While people do get sentenced to death, for Apostasy, it is rare the punishment is carried out.

In the entire History of Islam I can only find the names of 4 people that were actually executed for Apostasy. See HERE.

The vast majority of Islamic Nation do use Secular law for criminal cases and Sharia for civil affairs.

One reason being it is almost impossible to convict a person of a crime under Shariah. The proof of guilt is almost impossible to provide to the satisfaction of an actual Sharia Court.

I know the media portrays a different picture. But what is almost always shown and called Sharia is usually local Custom or Wahhabi and not Sharia.

Since it's inception Sharia Criminal laws have usually been replaced by secular. Reading the fine print in the 4 Madhabs that is permissible as the 5 Hadud crimes are also crimes under secular law. (One exception, the Hanafi Madhab only lists 4 hadud crimes)

A Hadud crime is a crime that requires an earthly punishment if a person is convicted, therefore the standards for proof are very high and difficult to prove.

Criminal Jurisprudence under Sharia lists 4 sets of rules determining what can be used as a punishment.


Qisas - meaning retaliation

Diyya - compensation paid to the heirs of a victim.

Hudud - predetermined or fixed punishments

Tazir - punishment, usually corporal, administered at the discretion of the judge

The rules for each are quite lengthy. And quite complex. But not as Barbaric or primitive as many say,

About the Closest thing to Sharia Criminal law is the American Criminal Justicesystem. Both have many more things in common than differences. My opinion,

The Shariah Civil laws remind me of the French civil laws under the Napolianic code.

About 30% of all Sunni follow the Hanafi Madhab. Because it is flexible and quite compatible with other legal systems it is the most popular among Western Muslims.

 

[Zeek]

In the entire History of Islam I can only find the names of 4 people that were actually executed for Apostasy. See HERE.

What about the thousands that have been accused of apostasy and killed because the teachings in Islam encourage or demand the death penalty...they may not have undergone official executions, but they were all killed on the authority of Islam and in most cases with the absolute backing of the religious leaders.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Chopping of a hand for theft, is actually seen as a better choice than imprisonment for many Mideasterners........

The Death penalty for apostasy is quite complex. While people do get sentenced to death, for Apostasy, it is rare the punishment is carried out.

In the entire History of Islam I can only find the names of 4 people that were actually executed for Apostasy. See HERE.

The vast majority of Islamic Nation do use Secular law for criminal cases and Sharia for civil affairs.................

Apostasy is used 2 times in the Christian NT of the Bible, once in Acts concerning apostasy away from Moses, and once in Paul's Epistles concerning a great Apostasy before the end of the world, either within Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, I don't know. Pretty interesting.

Greek Lexicon :: G646 (KJV)

Acts 21:21
"They were instructed yet about the apostasy/apo-stasian <646> thou are teaching from Moses, according to the gentiles, all Judeans saying 'no to be circumcising them the offsprings, no yet to the customs to be about walking'". [2 Thess 2:3]

2 Thess 2:3
No any ye should be deluding according to no yet one manner/way, that if-ever no may be coming the apostasy/apo-stasia <646> first. And may be being un-covered the Man of the Sin, the Son of the destruction.


Apostasy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apostasy (/&#601;&#712;p&#594;st&#601;si/; Greek: &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#963;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#943;&#945; (apostasia), "a defection or revolt") is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatizes) is known as an apostate. The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person's former religion, in a technical sense and without pejorative connotation.

Islam

In Islamic literature, apostasy is called irtid&#257;d or ridda; an apostate is called murtadd, which literally means 'one who turns back' from Islam.[54] Someone born to a Muslim parent, or who has previously converted to Islam, becomes a murtadd if he or she verbally denies any principle of belief proscribed by Qur'an or a Hadith, deviates from approved Islamic belief (ilhad), or if he or she commits an action such as treating a copy of the Qur&#702;an with disrespect.[55][56][57] A person born to a Muslim parent who later rejects Islam is called a murtad fitri, and a person who converted to Islam and later rejects the religion is called a murtad milli.

According to some scholars, if a Muslim consciously and without coercion declares their rejection of Islam and does not change their mind after the time allocated by a judge for research, then the penalty for male apostates is death, and for females life imprisonment.[75][76]
Today, apostasy is a crime in 23 out 49 Muslim majority countries; in many other Muslim nations such as Indonesia and Morocco, apostasy is indirectly covered by other laws.[7][77] It is subject in some countries, such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, to the death penalty, although executions for apostasy are rare.


Christianity

The Christian understanding of apostasy is "a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christian truth. Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian ...", though many believe that biblically this is impossible ('once saved, forever saved').[38] "Apostasy is the antonym of conversion; it is deconversion."[39] The Greek noun apostasia (rebellion, abandonment, state of apostasy, defection)[40] is found only twice in the New Testament (Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3).[41] However, "the concept of apostasy is found throughout Scripture."[42] ............

Judaism

The term apostasy is also derived from Greek &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#963;&#964;&#940;&#964;&#951;&#962;, meaning "political rebel," as applied to rebellion against God, its law and the faith of Israel (in Hebrew &#1502;&#1512;&#1491 in the Hebrew Bible.
Other expressions for apostate as used by rabbinical scholars are "mumar" (&#1502;&#1493;&#1502;&#1512;, literally "the one that is changed") and "poshea yisrael" (&#1508;&#1493;&#1513;&#1506; &#1497;&#1513;&#1512;&#1488;&#1500;, literally, "transgressor of Israel"), or simply "kofer" (&#1499;&#1493;&#1508;&#1512;, literally "denier" and heretic).................
In practice, Judaism does not follow the Torah's prescription on this point: there is no punishment today for leaving Judaism, other than being excluded from participating in the rituals of the Jewish community, including leading worship, being called to the Torah and being buried in a Jewish cemetery.


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[simplegifts]

I am curious as to how many clerics preach like this every week -
MEMRI: New York Friday Sermon: U.S. Muslims Should Boycott Coca-Cola, Nestle

This guy is not preaching religion.

 

[simplegifts]

What kind of Islam does this man, Zuhdi Jasser, M.D follow?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihios1W7h0E#t=419

Biography :: M. Zuhdi Jasser
M. Zuhdi Jasser, M.D. is the Founder and President of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy (AIFD). A devout Muslim, Dr. Jasser founded AIFD in the wake of the 9/11 attacks on the United States as an effort to provide an American Muslim voice advocating for the preservation of the founding principles of the United States Constitution, liberty and freedom, and the separation of mosque and state.

 

[WoodrowX2]

What about the thousands that have been accused of apostasy and killed because the teachings in Islam encourage or demand the death penalty...they may not have undergone official executions, but they were all killed on the authority of Islam and in most cases with the absolute backing of the religious leaders.

Any one who teaches violence is not teaching what I find Islam to be.

Show me anyplace in the Ahadith, Qur'an, or Fiqh-ul-Sunnah where execution is demanded for any crime. Show me in Shariah law where Execution is demanded for Apostates, in a few Madhabs of Shariah Execution can be used as a maximum punishment if all the conditions are met.

Shariah is one of the 4 Established madhabs. If a court is not following one of the 4 schools of Islamic Jurisprudence (A Madhab) they are not Shariah.

Each Muslim is an individual and we each are accountable for our actions, we do not have the luxury of claiming we were misled as we each have the responsibility to question all things and not accept the words of any human unless we have verified they are true.

There also is no set standard of teaching except for learning how to recite the Qur'an with proper pronunciation. No instructor of Islam has the right to make an interpretation and claim it is the "official" view of Islam. Our opinions, actions and commentaries are our own and we alone are responsible for them

No person speaks for Islam or for any other Muslim.

Sharia law is very well defined as to what the civil and criminal laws are. There are 4 recognized schools of Islamic Jurisprudence.

Very few people have ever been executed in a true Sharia court for apostasy.

A person who does so out side a Sharia court is a murderer even if they claim to be an "Islamic Leader"

 

[WoodrowX2]

I am curious as to how many clerics preach like this every week -
MEMRI: New York Friday Sermon: U.S. Muslims Should Boycott Coca-Cola, Nestle

This guy is not preaching religion.

1. Very few Mosques in the USA even have an Imam.

2. An Imam is not to be a Preacher, they are to give a sermon about 30 minutes before the the Friday Jummah prayer that is supposed to relate to local issues.

3. Most of the 700 Imams in the USA actually act like Imams, they lead the prayers, see the bills are paid and keep the Mosque clean. They keep their mouth's shut and do not preach.

During my 9 years as a Muslim I have never heard an Imam Preach and during the Friday sermon the majority of times it is about how we should help the xxx family down the street because they have been out of work for months and need help with food and other necessities.

4. Imams like that one make media attention because they are very rare.

I believe that in the USA the most you will hear from an Imam is this:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9l4u_EIqOI[/youtube]

 

[WoodrowX2]

What kind of Islam does this man, Zuhdi Jasser, M.D follow?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihios1W7h0E#t=419

Biography :: M. Zuhdi Jasser
M. Zuhdi Jasser, M.D. is the Founder and President of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy (AIFD). A devout Muslim, Dr. Jasser founded AIFD in the wake of the 9/11 attacks on the United States as an effort to provide an American Muslim voice advocating for the preservation of the founding principles of the United States Constitution, liberty and freedom, and the separation of mosque and state.

Like most Muslims he does not say. I notice he lives in Phoenix, which has a large Shi'ite population, but I recognize some of the members on his foundation page and know they are Sunni,

HERE

I do not see him making any statements unique to Shi'ite.

A Guess, I am about 75% certain he is Sunni and follows the Hanafi Madhab.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

Like most Muslims he does not say.

Whoever he is, his principles are absolutely disgusting.

Remember Peter King's anti-Muslim hearings? Zuhdi Jasser was supposed to be one of his star witnesses. He supported the NYPD spying on Muslims. He justified the assassination of the American citizen Anwar al Awlaki. He also inexplicably defends Israel and repeats Israeli talking points and lies (and ignores what Israel does to Palestine and how this whole mess was created due to Zionism).

With no relevant credentials to speak of, Jasser's authority in conservative circles as an "expert on radical Islam" seems to be derived from his willingness to frequently attack the Obama administration (whose terrorism advisor Jasser says "deserves honorary membership in the Muslim Brotherhood") and Muslim-American civil rights groups ("front organizations" for the Muslim Brotherhood, according to Jasser).

Jasser is also conspicuous in his willingness to appear on Fox News to mitigate the effects of their pundits' anti-Islamic rhetoric....Glenn Beck has dubbed him ...."a voice that I trust."

Who Is Zuhdi Jasser, Star Witness For Rep. Peter King's Muslim Radicalization Hearings? | Political Correction

 

[Aryeh Jay]

I am curious as to how many clerics preach like this every week -
MEMRI: New York Friday Sermon: U.S. Muslims Should Boycott Coca-Cola, Nestle

This guy is not preaching religion.

Oh my goodness, a sermon about justice and freedom? Law? Peace? Boycotting products? Yes, clearly this man is out of touch with reality.


(Boycott the French, Freedom Fries, Abortion, Obama, who to vote for, all this never really happened in churches…)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by simplegifts

I am curious as to how many clerics preach like this every week -
MEMRI: New York Friday Sermon: U.S. Muslims Should Boycott Coca-Cola, Nestle

This guy is not preaching religion.
​

Oh my goodness, a sermon about justice and freedom? Law? Peace? Boycotting products? Yes, clearly this man is out of touch with reality.


(Boycott the French, Freedom Fries, Abortion, Obama, who to vote for, all this never really happened in churches&#8230

Yeah....mixing politics and religion is like mixing dirt and water and getting mud.

2Pe 2:22
Of them the proverbs are true: &#8220;A dog returns to its vomit,&#8221;fn [Provb 26:11] and,
&#8220;A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.&#8221;

.

 

[drjean]

No it's not like different ideologies within Christianity at all.

Islamism holds that Jesus was born of a virgin (Q'oran calls her Miriam") and that He is a prophet. HOWEVER Islamism holds that Jesus will return soon and say that it was all a lie, that He really isn't who he said he was, and that he becomes the key leader in beheading anyone who won't convert to Islam.

I think there are other "big differences" as well... another being that God Almighty is not Allah. God Almighty is a God of love and peace. Allah portrays himself as a trickster, indeed the "Great Deceiver" and he actually enjoys changing things and not allowing his followers to know what comes next, even to the point of malfeasance. ("Allah is capable of lying and deceiving people. In fact, one of the titles which the Quran ascribes to Allah is khayru al-makireen, that Allah is "the best deceiver/schemer/conniver" (cf. S. 3:54; 8:30).")

I've read the English q'oran... and chat with other Christians who also have studied it... and nowhere do we find Allah to be a God of love, in fact love is not mentioned with reference to Allah.

It's important to realize that God Almighty loves everyone. He does not like what we do sometimes, and hates the sin that unbelievers perform...but He still waits with arms stretched out for unbelievers to come to Him and receive His love. That's a novel concept to Islam.

 

[gord44]

I've read the English q'oran... and chat with other Christians who also have studied it... and nowhere do we find Allah to be a God of love, in fact love is not mentioned with reference to Allah.

Perhaps to learn more about Islam you should talk to Muslims and not other Christians who 'read the Quran? That's like a Muslim saying they understand Christianity because they have read the Bible and chat about the Bible with other Muslims.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

God Almighty is a God of love and peace.

Did you ever read the 39 books before Matthew that take up more than 2/3 of the Christian Bible?

 

[simplegifts]

Oh my goodness, a sermon about justice and freedom? Law? Peace? Boycotting products? Yes, clearly this man is out of touch with reality.


(Boycott the French, Freedom Fries, Abortion, Obama, who to vote for, all this never really happened in churches…)

Boycotting anything- never, law - only to follow the law, who to vote for - never, freedom - how we can enjoy it through Christ whether we have true freedom or not.

Our sermons are about loving your neighbor. How to use Christ ideals to pattern our life. Loving includes those who have had abortion and how we can help them.

What is preached in synagogue?

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Boycotting anything- never, law - only to follow the law, who to vote for - never, freedom - how we can enjoy it through Christ whether we have true freedom or not.

Our sermons are about loving your neighbor. How to use Christ ideals to pattern our life. Loving includes those who have had abortion and how we can help them.

What is preached in synagogue?

It would depend on the synagogue. More liberal synagogues are almost like churches in their services with sermons and songs. In the Orthodox synagogues I attend, there is no sermon in the service, only prayer.

 

[gord44]

In the Orthodox synagogues I attend, there is no sermon in the service, only prayer.

That sounds nice.

When I was a church goer I kinda disliked sermons and songs.

 

[Zoness]

Me too, sermons always have some veiled political message. Or more often than not were a passive-aggressive stab at someone in the congregation. I'd rather have a service that was all prayer.

Maybe something Quakerish.

 

[WoodrowX2]

It would depend on the synagogue. More liberal synagogues are almost like churches in their services with sermons and songs. In the Orthodox synagogues I attend, there is no sermon in the service, only prayer.

Interesting, very similar to what I find in a Mosque.

Now if only all Muslims and Jews could learn there is no reason for us not to be able to live side by side.

OOOOPs, that does happen in much of the world. The media seems to think Israel/Palestine represents all Jews and Muslims. What I find to be more common is Jews and Muslims living peacefully in the same communities.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Interesting, very similar to what I find in a Mosque.

Now if only all Muslims and Jews could learn there is no reason for us not to be able to live side by side.

OOOOPs, that does happen in much of the world. The media seems to think Israel/Palestine represents all Jews and Muslims. What I find to be more common is Jews and Muslims living peacefully in the same communities.

This topic comes up a lot with my Muslim friends, and we even talked about it at length after the Friday afternoon service I went to last week.