Understanding Calvinism

rturner76 said:

PS the verse didn't say he hid HIMSELF but hid such teachings from the wise because you need only the mind of a child to grasp the concept. Golden rule stuff

Click to expand...

Yes, He, Hid His teachings... nuff said.

ConsumedByHisCall said:

This is a debate fallacy call "question begging." It presumes that God wills to save irresistibly (a point up for debate) and would thus "FAIL" if someone resisted or thwarted that will.

Click to expand...

Well this is not a formal debate, and I of course framed my response from a Calvinist view, because I am a Calvinist, so when I said "God does not fail to save those whom He will", I am referring not to those whom resist the non-elect, but to the elect, those He foreknew and predestined to salvation. The unregenerate can do no other than resist, it is the natural response of a spiritually dead person.

ConsumedByHisCall said:

BTW, do you affirm the view that God has "two wills" as expounded by Piper?

Click to expand...

I have not read Piper's view, I have read R.C. Sproul's view, and I do agree with Sproul. I do believe referring to the explaination as "two wills" is somewhat arbitary, because I imagine both Piper and Sproul would say God has but one will. The "two will theory" explains different aspects or distinctions of His one will. It is not as though God has two opposing wills or that His will is divided. Part of the explaination which I can appreciate the most, is the distinction between what God DOES and what He ALLOWS. Finally, on this note, we probably agree there is a good deal of mystery in the will of God.

ConsumedByHisCall said:

I understand Calvinism. I was one for a decade or so. I just don't believe that we are saved by grace to faith, but instead are "saved by grace THROUGH faith."

Click to expand...

I believe we're saved by grace through faith too, even monergistically.

Hidden where they can easily be found if you seek with the enthusiasm and simplicity of a child.

rturner76 said:

Hidden where they can easily be found if you seek with the enthusiasm and simplicity of a child.

Click to expand...

Heb 5:11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.

1 Cor 14:20 " 20 Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature." - ESV


Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds2 and teachers,3 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,4 to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,"

Proverbs 1:22 ​​​​​​​​“How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple?How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge?

Proverbs 9:6 ​​​​​​​​Leave your simple ways, and live, and walk in the way of insight.”

Encouraging child like faith and child like learning are two very different things.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

The unregenerate can do no other than resist, it is the natural response of a spiritually dead person.

Click to expand...

What biblical support do you have for that view?

Why would God make an appeal meant for his enemies calling them to reconciliation that they only have the ability to reject?

ConsumedByHisCall said:

What biblical support do you have for that view?

Why would God make an appeal meant for his enemies calling them to reconciliation that they only have the ability to reject?

Click to expand...

This should be good

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Encouraging child like faith and child like learning are two very different things.

Click to expand...

The verses I quoted were saying. These things are hidden from the wise. they over think this stuff. Why say that?

"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

This faith stuff is not Rocket science. Is the message. Don't over think it, take the yoke.

ConsumedByHisCall said:

What biblical support do you have for that view?

Click to expand...

There is plenty of biblical support for "The unregenerate can do no other than resist, it is the natural response of a spiritually dead person."

First, let's read the following:

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

The unregenerate do not have saving faith, that is faith in Christ, their faith is dead. Let's address "those who seek him", do the unregenerate seek Him? Let's turn to Scripture for an answer concerning this...

Romans 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 ​​​​​​​​no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 ​​​​​​​​All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” - also read Isa 64:6

The Apostle Paul, author of the majority of the New Testament, makes it abundantly clear, in mostly quoting from the O.T., Paul say's "no one seeks for God". Now going back to saving faith, Paul states...

Romans 14:23 "....For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

In the context Paul is talking about eating meat (sacrificed to idols), and his audience is Christian and he is warning not to cause your Christian brother to stumble, indicating that Christians do not always act from faith. What are the implications of this passage concerning the good works (in the eyes of men) of the unregenerate lacking saving faith in Christ? It follows that since the unregenerate lack saving faith in Christ, whatever they do is sin in the eyes of God. Perhaps you're not convinced, so I will provide more Scripture...

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

How can the unregenerate, set their mind on the things of the Spirit, when they have not been born of the Spirit? The unregenerate mind is hostile to God, and does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot. Those who live according to the Spirit have been born again, raised by God from spiritual death to spiritual life. Does this not make sense reading the contrast Paul makes between the mind set on the flesh and the mind set on the Spirit? Perhaps not, perhaps I should provide more Scripture...

1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Here again Paul is contrasting the unregenerate and regenerate. The "spirit of the world" is directly contrasted with the Spirit from God. The "the natural person", having the "spirit of the world", is the unregenerate person. Clearly Paul states "the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God". So much for making that free will choice to accept Christ...telling an unregenerate person to willfully accept Christ, is like telling a dead person to raise themself to life! Let's put "spirit of the world" into Pauline context...

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

I could spend all night quoting Scripture after Scripture but I will end the quoting with a quote from our Lord Jesus...

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Unless God draws the unregenerate to Him, pleading with the unregenerate to freely choose Christ is likened to building a house on sand. John 6:44 also provides a context for Hebrews 11:6.

ConsumedByHisCall said:

Why would God make an appeal meant for his enemies calling them to reconciliation that they only have the ability to reject?

Click to expand...

Romans 5:8 "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

In Paul's letter to the Church in Rome, his intended audience is to Christians, therefore the "us" of this verse is referring to the elect, drawn and chosen by God to a regenerated saving faith.

Now that I have answered, the burden of proof is on you to show the enemies of God have the ability to not reject in their unregenerate, carnally minded state. Good luck with that!

Apologetic_Warrior said:

There is plenty of biblical support for "The unregenerate can do no other than resist, it is the natural response of a spiritually dead person."

First, let's read the following:

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

The unregenerate do not have saving faith, that is faith in Christ, their faith is dead. Let's address "those who seek him", do the unregenerate seek Him? Let's turn to Scripture for an answer concerning this...

Romans 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 ​​​​​​​​no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 ​​​​​​​​All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” - also read Isa 64:6

The Apostle Paul, author of the majority of the New Testament, makes it abundantly clear, in mostly quoting from the O.T., Paul say's "no one seeks for God". Now going back to saving faith, Paul states...

Romans 14:23 "....For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

In the context Paul is talking about eating meat (sacrificed to idols), and his audience is Christian and he is warning not to cause your Christian brother to stumble, indicating that Christians do not always act from faith. What are the implications of this passage concerning the good works (in the eyes of men) of the unregenerate lacking saving faith in Christ? It follows that since the unregenerate lack saving faith in Christ, whatever they do is sin in the eyes of God. Perhaps you're not convinced, so I will provide more Scripture...

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

How can the unregenerate, set their mind on the things of the Spirit, when they have not been born of the Spirit? The unregenerate mind is hostile to God, and does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot. Those who live according to the Spirit have been born again, raised by God from spiritual death to spiritual life. Does this not make sense reading the contrast Paul makes between the mind set on the flesh and the mind set on the Spirit? Perhaps not, perhaps I should provide more Scripture...

1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Here again Paul is contrasting the unregenerate and regenerate. The "spirit of the world" is directly contrasted with the Spirit from God. The "the natural person", having the "spirit of the world", is the unregenerate person. Clearly Paul states "the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God". So much for making that free will choice to accept Christ...telling an unregenerate person to willfully accept Christ, is like telling a dead person to raise themself to life! Let's put "spirit of the world" into Pauline context...

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

I could spend all night quoting Scripture after Scripture but I will end the quoting with a quote from our Lord Jesus...

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Unless God draws the unregenerate to Him, pleading with the unregenerate to freely choose Christ is likened to building a house on sand. John 6:44 also provides a context for Hebrews 11:6.



Romans 5:8 "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

In Paul's letter to the Church in Rome, his intended audience is to Christians, therefore the "us" of this verse is referring to the elect, drawn and chosen by God to a regenerated saving faith.

Now that I have answered, the burden of proof is on you to show the enemies of God have the ability to not reject in their unregenerate, carnally minded state. Good luck with that!

Click to expand...

Amen We are born dead, in tresspasses and sin. A "dead" person spiritually is unable to "quicken themselves to come to Christ."
Isaiah said that no man can "rouse himself to come after You, Lord." Isaiah 64:7...."And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: "
We are unable unless God takes the initiative to draw us, we cannot come.

That is why His sovreignty in election is humbling!! Unless He chose to have mercy, we would not be able to come to Him. The very fact that anyone calls on Him, comes to Him or has a relationship with Jesus is because He ordained it FIRST, then drew the person. A dead heart/spirit cannot hear, see or understand nor quicken itself. God has to do this work first for anyone to be able to come to Him.

I see many of the same scriptures in a whole different light I'll just look at a couple brief passages to illustrate my point:

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

This point's to us needing to come to faith. It says nothing of predestination. It is more of an open invitation to all who come to faith.


What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
(Romans 3:9-10 ESV)

This is stated right before the other out of context verse you posted where it show what was being spoken of were the Jews and Greeks of that time, not all mankind.

I have to get to class but I will come back and show how every one of these verses is taken out of context, or cherry picked for one's purpose. I can make the bible agree with anything if I cherry pick the right verses. Context is very important and Calvin's points just melt away when you see the bible CHAPTERS for what they really are

Apologetic_Warrior said:

There is plenty of biblical support for "The unregenerate can do no other than resist, it is the natural response of a spiritually dead person."

Click to expand...

Not one of the versus below explicitly teach that mankind is born unable to respond the God's appeal to be reconciled. Let's take them one by one shall we:

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Click to expand...

Does this say that men can't have faith in the gospel? No. In fact, Paul teaches us that "faith cometh by hearing."

Romans 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 ​​​​​​​​no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 ​​​​​​​​All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” - also read Isa 64:6

Click to expand...

We already went over this. Proving that I can't call you on the phone is not proof that I can't answer the phone when you call me. We are talking about men responding to God's initial work, not about man's ability or willingness to initiate the work.

Romans 14:23 "....For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

Click to expand...

Again, nothing about inability to have faith in light of the gospel appeal...

It follows that since the unregenerate lack saving faith in Christ, whatever they do is sin in the eyes of God. Perhaps you're not convinced, so I will provide more Scripture...

Click to expand...

No, not convinced. To accept that whatever is done apart from faith is sin is not equal to the claim that men can't have faith through hearing the gospel appeal.

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

Click to expand...

I agree that the natural man is born an enemy of God. What could be a remedy for that condition? Could it be a divinely inspired message from God sent to all his enemies making the appeal to be reconciled? This verse tells us we are enemies and can't fulfill the law, but why would anyone deduce from these words that man can't humble themselves and believe in the one who did fulfill the law?

We both agree that living without faith (acting in the flesh) is not pleasing to God (even the 'brethren' in Corinth did this). And we both agree that it must be a WORK OF GOD which moves us from flesh to faith. The only real difference is that you believe that work to be salvific and irresistibly applied, whereas I believe the work to be sufficient for one to receive but able to be resisted. Thus, the only verse that will combat my perspective is one which indicates that the powerful Gospel appeal is an insufficient work of God. Good luck.

Does this not make sense reading the contrast Paul makes between the mind set on the flesh and the mind set on the Spirit? Perhaps not, perhaps I should provide more Scripture...

Click to expand...

Oh, it makes sense. I used to teach it just like you are right now. You are doing it quite well, btw, but I'm explaining to you the reasons I've rejected this line of teaching. I hope you understand my perspective, even if you continue to disagree.

1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Click to expand...

You need to back up to verse 10 and see that Paul is discussing "the deep things of God" and then keep reading into the next several versus to see that even the "brethren" there in Corinth could not receive these things (the meat) because they were living carnal/natural/fleshly lives that was not pleasing to God.

Additionally, you need to recognize that Paul, an inspired apostle, is one of the means God has chosen to spiritually discern "the deep truths of God," as he records them in scripture. At this time they didn't have the New Testament, obviously, so these "mysteries" were just being "discerned" for the churches. HOW? What means has God selected to make his mysteries known to His people? You choose:

1. By 'flipping a switch' in their minds which supernaturally just makes them understand things they couldn't understand before?

or

2. By sending divinely appointed messengers uniquely inspired to preach and write down the very words of God.

So, you see the church in Corinth need spiritual discernment. So, how are they going to get it? They same way a church gets direction today...go to the scriptures, where God has spiritually discerned mysteries in our own human language so we could understand it and respond.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Click to expand...

This usually leads to the "dead" equals "total inability" argument, right? Well, by that reasoning then when Paul teaches that believers are "dead to sin" then we must conclude that believers are unable to sin?

Additionally, it is interesting how Calvinists insist that the man is like a "corpse" in regard to his inability to respond positively, but is alive and well in his ability to respond negatively. The analogies where the corpse just lies there as saving medication is offered are so one sided because they neglect the fact that taking the analogy this far also negates the response of resistance to the gospel. The "death" analogy represents separation much like when a father would say to a rebellious son, "you are dead to me."

Plus, the words of Christ are referred to as "spirit and life." Truth is called "life giving," and it "will set you free." So, what about the "power of God unto salvation" is insufficient to bring a dead man to life? Again, we both agree it requires a work of God, we are talking about the sufficiency of a particular work that scripture clearly teaches is powerful, life giving, faith producing and like a "double edged sword." Now it is incumbent on you to prove that work is insufficient, an impossible request, I know...which is why I'm no longer a Calvinist.

I'll address the rest in a second post...

rturner76 said:

Hidden where they can easily be found if you seek with the enthusiasm and simplicity of a child.

Click to expand...

the text doesn't say anything like that , you are missing the bit where it says none can know unless it is revealed to them .

saving faith is based upon a Divinely granted assurance , it is Spiritually discerned , the natural man is imperceptive , he is minded on earthly things , Spiritual things do not compute , try telling a Monkey the laws of physics!

Romans 8

[4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Spiritual life contrasted with spiritual sterility ;

Eph.2

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Click to expand...

What means has God chosen to draw men to himself? (Even Calvinists admit that the Gospel is a part of this process and can't be separated from any other possible inward work of the Spirit, right?)

Ok, now lets go back to the historical context of John 6. Has the gospel been sent to the world yet? No.

In fact, Jesus has been telling his followers to keep things quite because its not the right time, and he has been hiding the 'mysteries' in parables so that people might not repent and be healed (Matt 13; Mark 4). Jesus is provoking the Jews. He has to so they will want to kill him. He is actively blinding them in their rebellion (Jn 12:39-41) and teaching purposefully hard teaching without qualification (i.e. eat my flesh) so as to drive most of his followers away. The only ones being entrusted with learning from Christ were a select few disciples who are being trained as the foundation for the church, the rest are being hardened (Rm 11:7). This is why Jesus says that they can't come unless they have been enabled. It's not because they were born "totally unable" it is, as Jesus said, "For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

But we also need "to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

So, the means God has chosen to draw (enable) all men to himself hasn't been sent yet in John 6. It is sent after Christ is raised up (Jn. 12:32)

Shulamite said:

Amen We are born dead, in tresspasses and sin. A "dead" person spiritually is unable to "quicken themselves to come to Christ."

Click to expand...

I think I understand why so many reject Arminianism out of hand. They actually think Arminians believe that we make ourselves alive. If that is what I believe Arminianism was I'd reject it too, but please know that is NOT what we believe. If you want to reject a doctrine at least know the premise of what you are rejecting and represent it accurately.

ConsumedByHisCall said:

I think I understand why so many reject Arminianism out of hand. They actually think Arminians believe that we make ourselves alive. If that is what I believe Arminianism was I'd reject it too, but please know that is NOT what we believe. If you want to reject a doctrine at least know the premise of what you are rejecting and represent it accurately.

Click to expand...

Well, I will just use the word of God then and not my own words.
"No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him first." Jesus
"You did not choose Me, I chose you and appointed you..." Jesus
"I know those whom I have chosen." Jesus
"Many are called only few are chosen" Jesus
"To this day there is a remnant, chosen by grace" Paul
(Whose grace? God's grace. We didn't choose ourselves for God based on our grace.)

Isaiah clearly states that no man can "rouse himself to take hold of You."
I could list tons here, but then I'd have to write a book for you .

All through the scriptures God is shown to be the Sovreign chooser over everything that exists, over all, including His own children and who He predestines and elects.

Shulamite said:

Well, I will just use the word of God then and not my own words.
"No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him first." Jesus
"You did not choose Me, I chose you and appointed you..." Jesus
"I know those whom I have chosen." Jesus
"Many are called only few are chosen" Jesus
"To this day there is a remnant, chosen by grace" Paul
(Whose grace? God's grace. We didn't choose ourselves for God based on our grace.)

Isaiah clearly states that no man can "rouse himself to take hold of You."
I could list tons here, but then I'd have to write a book for you .

All through the scriptures God is shown to be the Sovreign chooser over everything that exists, over all, including His own children and who He predestines and elects.

Click to expand...

Did you read what I wrote? I was agreeing with you. We can't make ourselves alive. God must enable us and draw us to come to him! I don't know a single scholarly Arminian who would deny these biblical truths, which is why I'm confused as to why you respond in this manner? Could it be you are rejecting a straw-man rather than Arminianism?

I apologize if I misunderstood what you wrote or somehow mixed things up. I guess I was just stating plainly that I believe the Lord has shown me that He elects, predestines and chooses.

I apologize if I misunderstood you in any way.

Calvinism in a nutshell:

Anyone who is willing to be saved can and will be saved.
Calvinists credit God's grace with man's willingness to be saved, not man's free will.

Non-calvinists/synergists/semi-pelagians/arminians don't credit God's grace with man's willingness. They credit man's free will.

One view robs God's glory and credit, the other doesn't. It's obvious which is which.

/thread

I for one would like to see 3 or 4 verses quoted IN THEIR FULL CONTEXT. Verses saying that God predestined people to go to hell with no possibility of their salvation. Not a one sentence quote. The scripture, in it's context, where you can tell who the writer was addressing and what the full message being given was in it's entirety.

I can say far example, Jesus was proven to be depressed I'll quote you a verse. "Jesus wept"

This is the style I see in quoting one line or one sentence that seems to support an already assumed theory edited in order to extract a phrase to fit a theory. Rather than using the bible and the truths contained within to fomulate the theory. The theory is formed and scripture is used after the fact to attempt to support the theory but the support is flimsy at best. I'm not even a scholar by any stretch and I can pick apart every verse that supposedly proves the doctrine of pre-election.