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Understanding Calvinism

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cygnusx1

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Hi Cygnusx1

Just a few more thoughts.

1. The thief on the cross. surely a one to one basis.

The Lord can and does deal one to one as well as corporately , was Jeremiah innocent of his nations sins ? yet read Lamentations , he gets the rough end , God judges nations . As Adam was punished on a one to one basis he was punished (cursed) also as a representative of mankind , wait , that is grounds for an objection , sure but it works two ways : Romans 5 teaches Adam is representative of all his offspring , he fell and "they" fell too , the union of humanity is seen in Adams fall , the union of the NEW humanity (creation) is seen in the second Adam that is why Christians died with Christ (none else) and were raised with him and seated with him now in Glory : UNION .

2. Not sure I understand corporate salvation. However 'the bride' as you have mention sounds to me like something worth amplifying.
Scripture prophecies that Marriage , centers on Christ and His Church , even a man nourishes and protects his own body , this is spoken in the context of Christ dying for His bride ... Love being the cause.

3. I do not get when the Lord witnessed to the reprobate although it is an idea I have never thought of and sounds good.
Romans 1-2 spells out Gods revealing Himself to mankind (through creation) , but they refused Him . Then God revealed Himself to The Jews (The Law) , again , mass rejection , and finally God revealed Himself to the world , The Gospel . Mass rejection and only a few by comparison saved . God's witness has been clear and constant .


Surley it must be after the baby reaches an age where it 'knows' it is doing wrong.

What do you think ?
That is a mystery , ability and knowledge are not the final security some imagine , not knowing doesn't save infants , grace does.
 
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Pinkman

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Pinkman
Don't mean to offend but wake up and smell the coffee will ya.

Zeena, jspark, returner and others give simple enuf answers that even the chidren of Christ can understand. When has a Calvinist ever given a straight, simple answer to a straight simple question ?

No offense taken. Not sure where you are coming from just yet.

Agreeing to disagree is civil but to be frank, gets on my nerves a bit. Shoot your stuff. My hope is just to get to the bottom of things, not go on another crusade.
 
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Pinkman

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.....wait , that is grounds for an objection , sure but it works two ways : Romans 5 teaches Adam is representative of all his offspring , he fell and "they" fell too , the union of humanity is seen in Adams fall , the union of the NEW humanity (creation) is seen in the second Adam that is why Christians died with Christ (none else) and were raised with him and seated with him now in Glory : UNION .


Romans 1-2 spells out Gods revealing Himself to mankind (through creation) , but they refused Him . Then God revealed Himself to The Jews (The Law) , again , mass rejection , and finally God revealed Himself to the world , The Gospel . Mass rejection and only a few by comparison saved . God's witness has been clear and constant .


That is a mystery , ability and knowledge are not the final security some imagine , not knowing doesn't save infants , grace does.

There is much here I do not understand. However my guess is you are correct in what you say. I need more to get my head around it.

To be churlish.

1, No objections. Not understanding, loads.

2. 'They fell to'. If 'They' also had an opportunity then all problems vanish. If God ministered to the reprobate as you said in a previous post then hallelujah.

3. Mass rejection. I disagree. Jesus was arrested early on Friday in darkness. Why ? Because the authorities could not touch him in public because the Jews loved him. It was the minority authority that organized a kangeroo court and did their deeds while the Jews were preparing for pass over.
Bit off topic. What of the masses today ? Indoctrination. Too short an answer I know. Get someone to stop, slow down and think, things change.

Not quite sure what I am saying except I cannot accept that most are born totally depraved. My conviction is that there is more to it. AS I said, if the reprobate get ministered to then problem solved.

However

I believe cygnusx1 you are coming up with good stuff. Please keep it coming and if pos, make it simple.

Regards

PM

PS signing out for tonight.
 
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Pinkman, I was doing a little spot reading last night and came across a portion of text from Martin Luther's "The Bondage of the Will" I wanted to share from the "The Sovereignty of God" section here goes...

“THIS, therefore, is also essentially necessary and wholesome for Christians to know:
That God foreknows nothing by contingency, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His immutable, eternal, and infallible will. By this thunderbolt, “Free-will” is thrown prostrate, and utterly dashed to pieces. Those, therefore, who would assert “Free-will,” must either deny this thunderbolt, or pretend not to see it, or push it from them. But, however, before I establish this point by any arguments of my own, and by the authority of Scripture, I will first set it forth in your words.

Are you not then the person, friend Erasmus, who just now asserted, that God is by nature just, and by nature most merciful? If this be true, does it not follow that He is immutably just and merciful? That, as His nature is not changed to all eternity, so neither His justice nor His mercy? And what is said concerning His justice and His mercy, must be said also concerning His knowledge, His wisdom, His goodness, His will, and His other Attributes. If therefore these things are asserted religiously, piously, and wholesomely concerning God, as you say yourself, what has come to you, that, contrary to your own self, you now assert, that it is irreligious, curious, and vain, to say, that God foreknows of necessity? You openly declare that the immutable will of God is to be known, but you forbid the knowledge of His immutable prescience. Do you believe that He foreknows against His will, or that He wills in ignorance? If then, He foreknows, willing, His will is eternal and immovable, because His nature is so: and, if He wills, foreknowing, His knowledge is eternal and immovable, because His nature is so.

From which it follows unalterably, that all things which we do, although they may appear to us to be done mutably and contingently, and even may be done thus contingently by us, are yet, in reality, done necessarily and immutably, with respect to the will of God. For the will of God is effective and cannot be hindered; because the very power of God is natural to Him, and His wisdom is such that He cannot be deceived. And as His will cannot be hindered, the work itself cannot be hindered from being done in the place, at the time, in the measure, and by whom He foresees and wills. If the will of God were such, that, when the work was done, the work remained but the will ceased, (as is the case with the will of men, which, when the house is built which they wished to build, ceases to will, as though it ended by death) then, indeed, it might be said, that things are done by contingency and mutability. But here, the case is the contrary; the work ceases, and the will remains. So far is it from possibility, that the doing of the work or its remaining, can be said to be from contingency or mutability. But, (that we may not be deceived in terms) being done by contingency, does not, in the Latin language, signify that the work itself which is done is contingent, but that it is done according to a contingent and mutable will — such a will as is not to be found in God! Moreover, a work cannot be called contingent, unless it be done by us unawares, by contingency, and, as it were, by chance; that is, by our will or hand catching at it, as presented by chance, we thinking nothing of it, nor willing any thing about it before.”

Reading further in Section XXV Martin Luther goes on to say…

“But, by necessity, I do not mean compulsion; but (as they term it) the necessity of immutability, not of compulsion; that is, a man void of the Spirit of God, does not evil against his will as by violence, or as if he were taken by the neck and forced to it, in the same way as a thief or cut-throat is dragged to punishment against his will; but he does it spontaneously, and with a desirous willingness. And this willingness and desire of doing evil he cannot, by his own power, leave off, restrain, or change; but it goes on still desiring and craving. And even if he should be compelled by force to do any thing outwardly to the contrary, yet the craving will within remains averse to, and rises in indignation against that which forces or resists it. But it would not rise in indignation, if it were changed, and made willing to yield to a constraining power. This is what we mean by the necessity of immutability: — that the will cannot change itself, nor give itself another bent; but rather the more it is resisted, the more it is irritated to crave; as is manifest from its indignation. This would not be the case if it were free, or had a “Free-will.” Ask experience, how hardened against all persuasion they are, whose inclinations are fixed upon any one thing. For if they yield at all, they yield through force, or through something attended with greater advantage; they never yield willingly. And if their inclinations be not thus fixed, they let all things pass and go on just as they will.

But again, on the other hand, when God works in us, the will, being changed and sweetly breathed on by the Spirit of God, desires and acts, not from compulsion, but responsively, from pure willingness, inclination, and accord; so that it cannot be turned another way by any thing contrary, nor be compelled or overcome even by the gates of hell; but it still goes on to desire, crave after, and love that which is good; even as before, it desired, craved after, and loved that which was evil. This, again, experience proves. How invincible and unshaken are holy men, when, by violence and other oppressions, they are only compelled and irritated the more to crave after good!” – from The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther
 
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Pinkman

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Pinkman, I was doing a little spot reading last night and came across a portion of text from Martin Luther's "The Bondage of the Will" I wanted to share from the "The Sovereignty of God" section here goes...

“THIS, therefore,.......... from The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther[/B]

Thanks Apologetic_Warrior
Ill have to read that a few more time. The first bit I though 'oh no, puppet theory" However by the end I think I get the gist of it.

To give a broad summary of this thread so far it seems :-

1. Adam and Eve were created sinless, falling by there own free will. I.e the infra lapsarian position as opposed to the supra view where God predetermined both Adam and Eve's fall.

2 The rest of humanity is born with an inbuilt desire to sin. This is named total depravity. Not meaning that e.g every one is as evil as say Pol Pot or Hitler but that we are totally effected.

3. God had pre determined before time to change the inbuilt desire in some people. Open there eyes and turn them around. Although neither making them puppets. The sin nature still existing causing them to still sin.

4. God has the knowledge of good and evil so humans are also born with it having been created in his image.

How is that so far ?
 
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ConsumedByHisCall

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2 The rest of humanity is born with an inbuilt desire to sin. This is named total depravity.

How is that so far ?

I'd say that the Calvinistic teaching on Total Depravity is a bit more than just being born with an inbuilt desire to sin. I'd say its more of an inability to willingly accept God's appeal to be reconciled. That is an unfounded presumption of Calvinism, IMO.

There is no biblical reason to believe that mankind is born unable to willingly accept God's genuine appeal to be reconciled to Him.
 
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cygnusx1

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man's inability is moral NOT mechanical , ie , the fall left man : man . He still has a rational mind , a will , emotions . However , these are all tainted by sin , causing man to distort reality , to suppress the truth , to act illogically and to will sin continually , the desires of man are now governed by flesh , his heart is "stone" , his mind is darkened , his reason is blind and his will is held captive by sin the flesh and the Devil , ie, man is a slave (of sin) ; That is why the good NEWS of Christ's the redeemer is so radical , Christ literally came to set men FREE !!!
 
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rturner76

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man's inability is moral NOT mechanical , ie , the fall left man : man . He still has a rational mind , a will , emotions . However , these are all tainted by sin , causing man to distort reality , to suppress the truth , to act illogically and to will sin continually , the desires of man are now governed by flesh , his heart is "stone" , his mind is darkened , his reason is blind and his will is held captive by sin the flesh and the Devil , ie, man is a slave (of sin) ; That is why the good NEWS of Christ's the redeemer is so radical , Christ literally came to set men FREE !!!

Yes all men, not just the "elect" isn't it amazing that all men have a chance at redemption? Hallejuah!!
 
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cygnusx1

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Yes all men, not just the "elect" isn't it amazing that all men have a chance at redemption? Hallejuah!!


all men ? all men are blind and deaf to the Gospel . The truth is salvation is in the Spiritual realm of Divine revelation and this does not happen to every man.

Matthew 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
 
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Thanks Apologetic_Warrior
Ill have to read that a few more time. The first bit I though 'oh no, puppet theory" However by the end I think I get the gist of it.

:thumbsup:

To give a broad summary of this thread so far it seems :-

1. Adam and Eve were created sinless, falling by there own free will. I.e the infra lapsarian position as opposed to the supra view where God predetermined both Adam and Eve's fall.

2 The rest of humanity is born with an inbuilt desire to sin. This is named total depravity. Not meaning that e.g every one is as evil as say Pol Pot or Hitler but that we are totally effected.

3. God had pre determined before time to change the inbuilt desire in some people. Open there eyes and turn them around. Although neither making them puppets. The sin nature still existing causing them to still sin.

4. God has the knowledge of good and evil so humans are also born with it having been created in his image.

How is that so far ?

Pretty good for a broad summary, on the 4th point I might clarify that the image of God and total depravity (meaning the nature of mankind is sin because the entire nature or being of mankind from birth) are inherited or passed down because unlike Adam and Eve, we were not specially created from the dust of the ground, we are as it were, descendants of Adam. On the 3rd point, and this might be nitpicking, but when I think about Regeneration I think about more than a change of inbuilt desire. Sorry to nitpick, it's a habit of mine. I do agree with point one, just as you put it, I would only add God foreknew, and foreordained in the sense that God knew and already had a plan of Redemption, but He allowed with limitations and conditions freedom to choose between obedience and disobedience. I agree with how you stated point two, would only add that because humans are spiritually dead from birth, we are totally unable to make spiritually "alive" choices. A sinner that doesn't sin is kind of like a fish that doesn't swim.
 
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rturner76

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all men ? all men are blind and deaf to the Gospel . The truth is salvation is in the Spiritual realm of Divine revelation and this does not happen to every man.

Matthew 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

WOuld you like me to quote that verse in context? It's awesome you bring it up because it highlights the CHOICE we all have please read more than your out of context verse:

At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

(Matthew 11:25-30 ESV)

Did you see where it said ALL who labor, not all the elect? Try another out of context verse. He will choose all of us if we all take his yoke upon us. Praise the Lord!! God is good isn't he??
 
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washedagain

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WOuld you like me to quote that verse in context? It's awesome you bring it up because it highlights the CHOICE we all have please read more than your out of context verse:

At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

(Matthew 11:25-30 ESV)

Did you see where it said ALL who labor, not all the elect? Try another out of context verse. He will choose all of us if we all take his yoke upon us. Praise the Lord!! God is good isn't he??


Did you miss this part that YOU quoted.....

“I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

Who are these people that God has hidden Himself from? There is a distinction. God hides from some and reveals to others. Hmmmmmmmm

thanks for posting this verse. Proves are point quite well.


The elect are those who labor....
 
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ConsumedByHisCall

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Read Romans Chapters 1 through 3

Done. Still don't see any justification for a doctrine teaching God's enemies are unable to respond to a powerful appeal for reconciliation from God himself. Yes, I do see text that say men won't seek God, but nothing about an inability to respond to a God seeking us.
 
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ConsumedByHisCall

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man's inability is moral NOT mechanical , ie , the fall left man : man . He still has a rational mind , a will , emotions . However , these are all tainted by sin , causing man to distort reality , to suppress the truth , to act illogically and to will sin continually , the desires of man are now governed by flesh , his heart is "stone" , his mind is darkened , his reason is blind and his will is held captive by sin the flesh and the Devil , ie, man is a slave (of sin) ; That is why the good NEWS of Christ's the redeemer is so radical , Christ literally came to set men FREE !!!

Exactly! The "good New" has been sent to set men free, so why would anyone presume it is insufficient to do that apart from first being freed (regenerated)? Does it makes any sense to say that "the words of life" are only sufficient for those already made alive? Could it not be that the words of life are sufficient to bring men to life, yet in stubborn rebellion some may choose to resist that?
 
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Done. Still don't see any justification for a doctrine teaching God's enemies are unable to respond to a powerful appeal for reconciliation from God himself. Yes, I do see text that say men won't seek God, but nothing about an inability to respond to a God seeking us.

If I may, would like to perhaps help. You are dead on about God seeking, and I would add that God does not fail to save those whom He will. Yes, we do respond, but we do so because God has made it so. IOW, He gives us a new heart and mind and in this He converts our dead faith to a living faith, and it is because of the work God alone has done, that we respond having been regenerated with a living faith, and with our spiritual eyes opened, we see our nakedness, the depths of our sin, and respond in repentance and asking for the mercy of forgiveness.
 
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ConsumedByHisCall

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I would add that God does not fail to save those whom He will.
This is a debate fallacy call "question begging." It presumes that God wills to save irresistibly (a point up for debate) and would thus "FAIL" if someone resisted or thwarted that will.

BTW, do you affirm the view that God has "two wills" as expounded by Piper?

Yes, we do respond, but we do so because God has made it so. IOW, He gives us a new heart and mind and in this He converts our dead faith to a living faith, and it is because of the work God alone has done, that we respond having been regenerated with a living faith, and with our spiritual eyes opened, we see our nakedness, the depths of our sin, and respond in repentance and asking for the mercy of forgiveness.
I understand Calvinism. I was one for a decade or so. I just don't believe that we are saved by grace to faith, but instead are "saved by grace THROUGH faith."
 
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rturner76

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Did you miss this part that YOU quoted.....

“I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

Who are these people that God has hidden Himself from? There is a distinction. God hides from some and reveals to others. Hmmmmmmmm

thanks for posting this verse. Proves are point quite well.


The elect are those who labor....


Once again, you take one passage out of context. this is a very famous teaching of the master's it goes with the gospel. what he is saying here is the truth is hidden from those people that are "wise and understanding" meaning, they think too much, kind of like ho the process of the elect vs the non elect is an over thought out of context doctrine. The teaching is a parallel to this thought. In words nowadays. "This isn't rocket science."

And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 18:2-4 ESV)

The teaching is about the simplicity, not the complex nature of Calvinism. It is a good try but out of context interpretation.
 
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