UNDER THE LAW!

[not under law]

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

I could recite the above, almost word for word as to my experience when I lived under righteousness of obeying the law. It is about what happened when Saul would have made a commitment to God, at the age of 13 I believe for a young Jewish lad. And the rest of the chapter is of Saul the Pharisee striving and failing to obey the commandment: Thou shalt not covet:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do – this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[HARK!]

BTW, as I am sure you realise, rom 7:7-11 is all about when the law came to Saul the Pharisee and what happened through his knowledge of the commandment: Thou shalt not covet. Verses 14-24 is a more detailed account of this, and it concerns the same commandment, one of the ten

One of the 2. one of the 10. one of the 613, what's the difference? If you are guilty of one; you are guilty of all. Coveting was obviously Paul's weakness. It's not mine. Different people have different weaknesses; but Paul's specific example can be applied to everyone's weakness. We all struggle with our own weaknesses. I gave my experience. Paul gave his. You gave yours. After you gave me the story of your struggles; I thought those examples might be useful to you.

 

[not under law]

One of the 2. one of the 10. one of the 613, what's the difference? If you are guilty of one; you are guilty of all. Coveting was obviously Paul's weakness. It's not mine. Different people have different weaknesses; but Paul's specific example can be applied to everyone's weakness. We all struggle with our own weaknesses. I gave my experience. Paul gave his. You gave yours. After you gave me the story of your struggles; I thought those examples might be useful to you.

Romans ch7 resonates with me. It was my life when I lived under righteousness of obeying the law. So I guess it is not so hard to understand something you can relate to. In my view, it is one of the most illuminating chapters Paul wrote, and a humble account of his life as a Pharisee, and the result of following strictly righteousness of obeying the law

 

[HARK!]

law/works of the law

What are works of law?

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah.

 

[not under law]

One of the 2. one of the 10. one of the 613, what's the difference? If you are guilty of one; you are guilty of all..

That is very true:
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it James2:10
Should we include Christ's commands in the above?
Paul agreed with James:
For all who rely on the works of the law/observing the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith.] 12 The law is not based on faith Gal3:10-12
Hence:
For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath Rom4:14&15

 

[not under law]

What are works of law?

.

Works of the law is observing the law, same thing

 

[HARK!]

a humble account of his life as a Pharisee, and the result of following strictly righteousness of obeying the law

His account was written in the present tense; when he was no longer a Pharisee.

 

[HARK!]

Works of the law is observing the law, same thing

There is a difference between works and works of law.

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

 

[HARK!]

12 The law is not based on faith

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

 

[not under law]

His account was written in the present tense; when he was no longer a Pharisee.

Although he is speaking in the present tense, it was an acceptable form of words to use in those days when speaking of the past, I have been reliably informed. However, if he was speaking as a Christian he cannot have been justified before God according to your beliefs. Verse14:
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

The person being spoken of is sold as a slave to breaking the law/sin. However, in ch6:16 Paul writes:
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey – whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness.

If Paul the christian is being spoken of in ch7:14-24 he is condemned according to what Paul write in 6:16

Sin was the master of the person spoken of in ch7:14-24 and he was sins slave, this is indisputable, Paul wrote:
For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace6:14

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do

So Paul the Christian was sold as a slave to breaking the law, he could not do the good he wanted to do but only what he hated to do?

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do – this I keep on doing

So Paul the christian has the desire to do what is good but he cannot carry it out? He cannot do the good he wants to do, only the evil he does not want to do?

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

So Paul the Christian is a prisoner breaking the law

He has failed your tests to be righteous before God, so if he is speaking of his christian life, according to your stated beliefs he is condemned to hell

 

[HARK!]

Righteousness means justification

Paul states:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law/works of the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

(CLV) Ro 3:20
because, by works of law, not flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin.

Nope. Paul doesn't say law/works of law. He specifically says "works of law." Again, he is the only one in the Bible to use this expression. The only other place I've found it is in the Qumran scrolls.

 

[not under law]

There is a difference between works and works of law.

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

For all who rely on the works of the law/observing the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’
It is quite plainly written and should be easily understood. You are cursed if you rely on works of the law because cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law

 

[not under law]

(CLV) Ro 3:20
because, by works of law, not flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin.

Nope. Paul doesn't say law/works of law. He specifically says "works of law." Again, he is the only one in the Bible to use this expression. The only other place I've found it is in the Qumran scrolls.

Paul's relelntless statements on this subject state the believer is not justified by obeying the law but by faith in Christ, and they are quite easy to understand

 

[HARK!]

Although he is speaking in the present tense, it was an acceptable form of words to use in those days when speaking of the past, I have been reliably informed.

25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law."

So you're saying that Paul wasn't slaving to YHWH's law nor Sin's law; when he wrote this verse?

I'm not buying it. Your reliable source will have to twist himself up into a pretzel to explain this verse.

 

[HARK!]

Paul's relelntless statements on this subject state the believer is not justified by obeying the law but by faith in Christ, and they are quite easy to understand

Then you should have no difficulty finding a verse which clearly states that.

I wouldn't choose one from Romans; because he refers to at least 8 different categories of law in that letter. You can't cherry pick (not that it is such a great idea anyway) in that letter. It has to be read as a whole.

 

[not under law]

25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law."

So you're saying that Paul wasn't slaving to YHWH's law nor Sin's law; when he wrote this verse.

I'm not buying it. You reliable source will have to twist himself up into a pretzel to explain this verse.

OK, so from now on when you speak of righteousness of obeying the law, I will remind you, your belief is Paul the Christian was sold as a slave to breaking the law/sin, sin was his master and he was sins slave. He could not do the good he wanted to do but only the evil he did not want to do. That's fine, but how does that tally with righteousness of obeying the law?

 

[not under law]

Then you should have no difficulty finding a verse which clearly states that.

I wouldn't choose one from Romans; because he refers to at least 8 different categories of law in that letter. You can't cherry pick (not that it is such a great idea anyway) in that letter. It has to be read as a whole.

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’
It is quite plainly written and should be easily understood. You are cursed if you rely on works of the law because cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law

 

[HARK!]

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’
It is quite plainly written and should be easily understood. You are cursed if you rely on works of the law because cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law

Again, there is a difference between YHWH's law, and 'works of law'. According to your previous statement you should have no trouble finding a verse that makes your point clear.

 

[HARK!]

I have to get back to you later. It has been a very long day. Goodnight.

 

[not under law]

I have to get back to you later. It has been a very long day. Goodnight.

God bless