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John witnessed the opening of the seals, because God took him to the time the seals would be opened.
Ahh, I get it. This interpretation is strongly influenced by Hollywood.I do not understand your post.
Have you not heard of the 100's of movies over the last 60 years about alien reptiles attacking and taking over the earth?
Satan has already deceived and conditioned this world for all of his deceptions.
"Enoch and Elijah was taken into Heaven for sure, but they were not "changed" and given a new body, because they could not die again"
The bible makes it clear that flesh can not enter heaven, to exist in heaven your body needs to change, unless Enoch and Elijah have been wearing space suits all this time.
Not everyone has to die, those Christians alive at the rapture will not experience death.
No, I agreed with your post. There were other posts not by you that I thought were funny. I didn't see any reason to treat them as serious until I learned from the moderator that I had hurt their feelings by clicking it was funny. I feel terrible, I shouldn't have laughed.Who or what would dare to not allow you to click "I agree"?
If the post entertains you, feel free to laugh as loud and long as you wish.
Then provide Scripture to disprove my "intricately constructed Biblical interpretation".
That could be difficult, since you agree that the interpretation is Biblical.
Hard to judge how to take a post sometimes.No, I agreed with your post. There were other posts not by you that I thought were funny. I didn't see any reason to treat them as serious until I learned from the moderator that I had hurt their feelings by clicking it was funny. I feel terrible, I shouldn't have laughed.
Nice points, and it looks like you are pre-wrath too!But we must remember, as far as being "raptured", it means to take/snatch upward (in the clouds). It is a mistake to think anything like the rapture Paul described has ever taken place.
If you compare 1st Cor. 15, we get a new body when the rapture takes place and it cannot die. So that means there is a contradiction in the word of God, or our interpretation is wrong.
Enoch and Elijah was taken into Heaven for sure, but they were not "changed" and given a new body, because they could not die again- if they got a new immortal body. It says Elijah was taken into Heaven by a chariot-by angels. This could be how Enoch went too, it don't say.
Angels carry our souls to Heaven when we die and do the harvesting when Jesus comes back. They are our "ride", and it's going to be cool!I believe the "horses" we are riding on are these angels (cherubs), in Rev 19. Notice in second coming context in Psalm 18, what Jesus rides on, so...
7Then the earth shook and quaked;
And the foundations of the mountains were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.
8Smoke went up out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.
9He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
10He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.
11He made darkness His hiding place, His canopy around Him,
Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
12From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
13The LORD also thundered in the heavens,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
So, as far as the two witnesses, it could be them or Moses (my pick)-because he was on the mount of transfiguration, and he does represent the law with Elijah representing the prophets. Elijah is one of them for sure-Jesus said so.
We are appointed to die once and then face the judgment-they are linked in the passage. Does that mean we could not die and then God raise us up without changing us if He wanted- like Laz, and the young girl in Luke 8. They died twice as far as we know, and my wife is a nurse in the ICU and has seen plenty of people die for a short time and come back. If you are right about only dying once, then Enoch and Elijah are it, but they never got a resurrection body, this we can know for certain.
We must remember, as true born again Christians we have passed from death unto life, and our sin has already been judged on the cross. Our works await judgment-which will happen after the resurrection. The unsaved will be raised and judged only on the merits of their works, and none of them are righteous enough to pass Gods judgement.
The 24 elders would have be those raised after Jesus was raised and would be the "wave " offering of grain along with Jesus who is the first fruits. They would have new bodies, and are shown as such in Rev. All this is rooted in the appointed feasts the Lord gave Israel. Jesus will fulfill all the feasts, the feast of trumpets is next.
Who knows what deception will happen in the coming years? If we believe Jesus, believe the word, and trust what He taught us in the Olivet Discourse, we cannot be deceived. He told us before. Who are we going to believe is the question I ask to everyone?
Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).
If the seals were opened, then the church is already complete. Which is it? You cannot say the church exist today, if the seals have been opened. Jesus Christ is not currently in Jerusalem. I am to believe that for 1900 years, there was just a blank time space? The church was complete in the 1st century? We have been on hold since then? It is not biblical nor logical to say the seals have been one long nondescript event. It may be reasonable because some refuse to accept that God did allow John directly to witness current events. Revelation 1:10-11The text says Christ opened the seals one at a time, and then John was told... "Come and see."
John then recorded what he was shown, by writing the Book of Revelation.
That does not mean the events John was shown have already happened.
However, the seals were opened by Christ during the first century.
"God promised us tribulation in this world"
yes, but what he said is we would face tribulation from the world.
The 7 year tribulation is the world facing tribulation from God. Christians are spared that.
If the seals were opened, then the church is already complete.
Ahh, I get it. This interpretation is strongly influenced by Hollywood.
If Christians reject the rapture because it is an escape, they are too comfortable in their lives. They should move to countries where they behead Christians, to remain consistent in their false teachings. I am sure there are Christians who have lost loved ones to a martyr's death, who would be willing to change places. Or not, some Christians live for God, not the riches of this world. This "escape" view of the rapture is evil and from Satan. Not all Christians on earth even live close to what poverty is in some God blessed nations. People should really think about what they say these days. God will use their words and theology against them in judgment. We are in the trib, so pre trib is out of the picture any ways. If some think 2020 was a normal, human planned year, they are missing out on God’s timing of God's Will. The whole year will be God's plan changing everything around just as God willed, and John recorded in Revelation 6.Correct in the sense of what Paul was talking about that's never happened before but we do have biblical examples of people ascending to Heaven without dying in Enoch and Elijah. When I read about Enoch I always just thought.. that seems so random, but God doesn't do things in vain, so.. that's why he's my choice... also I think he would be the one to explain about the depravity of the world before the flood.
as far as NEAR death experiences I don't put a lot of stock into them, because Hebrews 9:27. I don't think God just lets people die over and over. Some people will be blessed to never die at all, and be raptured, which I believe happens at the 6th seal when the sun and moon are darkened and everyone is mourning on the earth. Those in Christ will rise to be with Him, those on the earth will be subject to the wrath of God. There's the rapture, the annointing of the 144000, and then destruction comes.
I was taught pretrib when I was young but it never felt right, you know, the spirit just rejected it, and as I read the bible myself I realized why, because Jesus told us that we'd experience persecution for His name's sake Matthew 24:9. Being raptured away early to not experience that testing furnace just seemed unbiblical.
Then Revelation 6 and 7 2 things stood out, #1, the darkening of the sun and moon just like Jesus describes in the Gospels, and #2, in Revelation 7:9 there is suddenly a great multitude of people of all nations and tongues, standing before the throne of God praising Him. The 24 elders didn't know who they were and they asked John "who are these people?" John told them he DID know them in Revelation 7:14, where the Elder realized who they were they were they which came out of great tribulation.
It all clicked, in ways that no other rapture position did. It was consistent with scripture, it was consistent with how God lets bad things happen to us when evil people use their free will to harm us. Following Christ was never supposed to be easy, it was never supposed to be free of tribulation. My spirit accepted it, and it turned me to understand that I would need to condition myself to endure.
Somewhere I believe that pre tribbers also feel this they just don't want to admit it because it WILL be a horrible time they have to endure. I watched a Michael Pearl video just last night about how to be prepared and he would talk about the tribulation but always have to step in and try to qualify for himself "I think we won't have to go through it", okay so why are you preparing yourself to endure it?
It seems like wishful thinking to me, you don't WANT to experience the Great Tribulations so you try to hash together a way that you won't experience them (short of dying before them). They can't justify a pre trib rapture position with scripture alone, they have to take things like "well in a Jewish wedding..." or "in this Jewish feast.." all cultural references rather than scriptural references.
Post Trib I can understand but the main problem (and also a problem with pre trib) is understanding that the wrath of God is separate from the tribulations. The tribulations are caused by men, not God. It's persecution of Christians by men, God allows that to happen, God ordains the evil for the purpose of ultimately fulfilling good. But the trumpets and vials, THAT God has not appointed for us. Post trib correctly sees us goting through Tribulation, they just miss the part in the 6th seal and Revelation 7 to realize oh, the saints have been pulled out just before the trumpets start.
Pre wrath it just takes scripture and scripture alone, comparing scripture with scripture.. and you arrive at that position, without wishful thinking, without trying to justify with outside sources.
I believe it because that is what scripture says.
The church is not complete. Revelation is about death and dying. The church a "martyr". The white horse is not a good victory. It is an end to life as we know it. It is a sign that the church has fallen into apostasy, the great falling away. The church is dead, the world is wicked. It will never go back to normal ever.Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
The church is not complete. Revelation is about death and dying. The church a "martyr". The white horse is not a good victory. It is an end to life as we know it. It is a sign that the church has fallen into apostasy, the great falling away. The church is dead, the world is wicked. It will never go back to normal ever.
If Christians reject the rapture because it is an escape, they are too comfortable in their lives. They should move to countries where they behead Christians, to remain consistent in their false teachings. I am sure there are Christians who have lost loved ones to a martyr's death, who would be willing to change places. Or not, some Christians live for God, not the riches of this world. This "escape" view of the rapture is evil and from Satan. Not all Christians on earth even live close to what poverty is in some God blessed nations. People should really think about what they say these days. God will use their words and theology against them in judgment. We are in the trib, so pre trib is out of the picture any ways. If some think 2020 was a normal, human planned year, they are missing out on God’s timing of God's Will. The whole year will be God's plan changing everything around just as God willed, and John recorded in Revelation 6.
Interesting series of posts here. I'm of the opinion that the Beast empire will be a revised Muslim Caliphate. While the whole world is worrying about covid19, listen to this guy that is tracking things in Turkey, and what their prez is saying. The Caliphate/Beast will arise again with the head being Turkey. They have the biggest army in that area. Joel Richardson has free resources is anyone wants more info on this.
Resources - Joel's Trumpet
https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt
Pretty please?I have a... darker idea of how the beast will work, though islam is involved.
Correct in the sense of what Paul was talking about that's never happened before but we do have biblical examples of people ascending to Heaven without dying in Enoch and Elijah. When I read about Enoch I always just thought.. that seems so random, but God doesn't do things in vain, so.. that's why he's my choice... also I think he would be the one to explain about the depravity of the world before the flood.
as far as NEAR death experiences I don't put a lot of stock into them, because Hebrews 9:27. I don't think God just lets people die over and over. Some people will be blessed to never die at all, and be raptured, which I believe happens at the 6th seal when the sun and moon are darkened and everyone is mourning on the earth. Those in Christ will rise to be with Him, those on the earth will be subject to the wrath of God. There's the rapture, the annointing of the 144000, and then destruction comes.
I was taught pretrib when I was young but it never felt right, you know, the spirit just rejected it, and as I read the bible myself I realized why, because Jesus told us that we'd experience persecution for His name's sake Matthew 24:9. Being raptured away early to not experience that testing furnace just seemed unbiblical.
Then Revelation 6 and 7 2 things stood out, #1, the darkening of the sun and moon just like Jesus describes in the Gospels, and #2, in Revelation 7:9 there is suddenly a great multitude of people of all nations and tongues, standing before the throne of God praising Him. The 24 elders didn't know who they were and they asked John "who are these people?" John told them he DID know them in Revelation 7:14, where the Elder realized who they were they were they which came out of great tribulation.
It all clicked, in ways that no other rapture position did. It was consistent with scripture, it was consistent with how God lets bad things happen to us when evil people use their free will to harm us. Following Christ was never supposed to be easy, it was never supposed to be free of tribulation. My spirit accepted it, and it turned me to understand that I would need to condition myself to endure.
Somewhere I believe that pre tribbers also feel this they just don't want to admit it because it WILL be a horrible time they have to endure. I watched a Michael Pearl video just last night about how to be prepared and he would talk about the tribulation but always have to step in and try to qualify for himself "I think we won't have to go through it", okay so why are you preparing yourself to endure it?
It seems like wishful thinking to me, you don't WANT to experience the Great Tribulations so you try to hash together a way that you won't experience them (short of dying before them). They can't justify a pre trib rapture position with scripture alone, they have to take things like "well in a Jewish wedding..." or "in this Jewish feast.." all cultural references rather than scriptural references.
Post Trib I can understand but the main problem (and also a problem with pre trib) is understanding that the wrath of God is separate from the tribulations. The tribulations are caused by men, not God. It's persecution of Christians by men, God allows that to happen, God ordains the evil for the purpose of ultimately fulfilling good. But the trumpets and vials, THAT God has not appointed for us. Post trib correctly sees us goting through Tribulation, they just miss the part in the 6th seal and Revelation 7 to realize oh, the saints have been pulled out just before the trumpets start.
Pre wrath it just takes scripture and scripture alone, comparing scripture with scripture.. and you arrive at that position, without wishful thinking, without trying to justify with outside sources.
I believe it because that is what scripture says.
Have you ever posted the rapture was an escape?You get me wrong, there is a rapture. If you read Revelation you will see it come after the martyrs but before the wrath of God.
Where IN SCRIPTURE ALONE is the rapture said to take place before the great tribulation?
Scripture shows multiple times when the gathering of the elect takes place after the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"
Revelation 7:14 "they which came out of great tribulation"
Don't separate people "oh well those are the Tribulation saints but not us!" Instead separate the tribulations from the wrath of God and understand that they are 2 different things. The wrath of God comes AFTER the tribulations.
Note that if there was a pre trib rapture, there would be nobody on the earth to preach the gospel these so called Tribulation saints. How do they convert with nobody to preach? Romans 10:11-17.
The 144000 come after the 6th seal but before the 7th seal.
Do you see how neatly this all lines up?
The four horsemen, the great tribulations, then the rapture, the 144,000 sealed that preach the word of God to REPLACE the saints who were raptured. They take over, and they are protected from the wrath of God, that is why the Angel tells the other angels to wait until they are sealed to hurt the earth Revelation 7:3. Then the wrath of God comes.
Have you ever posted the rapture was an escape?
The tribulation in Revelation is not about the church. The seals are opened up after the tribulation of the church. I see some claim they happened before the church was even persecuted in the first century. Some claim it happened even before any of the New Testament was written. The seals end the church age. They do not start nor open any place, except at the end. Now they are being opened. It is the end of the church age.
Yes, the church will be in tribulation until the very end. People have been martyred this year. Because a verse reads one way, do we interpret it to say only martyrs are Christians? If a person does not suffer tribulation nor killed for their testimony, does that mean they are not in Christ?
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