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I'm going to disagree because the timing Jesus gave was after the tribulation in Matthew 24, the coming of Jesus in Revelation 19 doesn't line up with the description in Matthew 24, HOWEVER, the description in Revelation 6:12-13 DOES match the description in Matthew 24:29-31. Once you see it, you'll understand, God promised us tribulation in this world, He will not spare us from other people hating us for His name's sake. He will however, spare us from His wrath, the trumpets and vials.
So you can see Tribulation -> Rapture -> Wrath of God -> Jesus comes to earth on a white horse with His saints -> Armageddon -> Millennial Kingdom -> Satan's little season and last act of Rebellion -> End of the World and Final Judgement -> Eternity
That is taking Revelation as being written mostly in order. Chapter 12 is an obvious reset since it goes back to the birth of Christ, and chapter 14 goes over the same 144000 that chapter 7 does, and the vials seem to correspond with the trumpets (though they are different, they often complement each other, so I believe they happen simultaneously). It is also taking Revelation fairly literally except obvious symbolism like the multi headed beast.
See post #12, the 2 videos take a while to see but a lot of ground is covered. Gives a very good case for pre-trib rapture.I don't understand any of this debate. The rapture is not a sign of the Lord's coming for the believers. In Matthew 24 Jesus compares the rapture to Noah entering the ark and the door closing. If you want to be in the ark when the flood comes there are a whole lot of signs you should be paying attention to, this is not one of them.
I understand the Biblical case for Christians being raptured prior to the great tribulation. I also understand the Biblical case for Christians being raptured after the great tribulation. I understand the Biblical case to be made for multiple raptures. What I don't understand is the obsession with it. Having your loins girded, lamp lit, and opening straightway to the Lord at this time seems far more important than a doctrinal debate about rapture. The rapture will be a sign for the unbelievers. There are plenty of signs for the believers that we should be focused on.See post #12, the 2 videos take a while to see but a lot of ground is covered. Gives a very good case for pre-trib rapture.
Undecided on the Rapture Timing
Just because its being discussed hardly makes it an obsession.I understand the Biblical case for Christians being raptured prior to the great tribulation. I also understand the Biblical case for Christians being raptured after the great tribulation. I understand the Biblical case to be made for multiple raptures. What I don't understand is the obsession with it. Having your loins girded, lamp lit, and opening straightway to the Lord at this time seems far more important than a doctrinal debate about rapture. The rapture will be a sign for the unbelievers. There are plenty of signs for the believers that we should be focused on.
Enoch and Elijah were raptured up to heaven, correct, that's why I believe they will be the two witnesses in Jerusalem. Because they have not yet died their appointed death.
However Moses did die. Deuteronomy 34:5.
Jesus died and was resurrected.
and I think it's possible that other people who were resurrected by Jesus such as Lazarus may have gone bodily up to heaven rather than die a second time, although that is not covered in scripture. I say this is possible because Hebrews 9:27 and Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 20:6. If you were resurrected by Jesus you've already taken part in the first resurrection and are not subject to the second death. So Lazarus I believe was resurrected and taken to heaven bodily, for the glory of God and would not suffer a second death.
Nice points, and it looks like you are pre-wrath too!But we must remember, as far as being "raptured", it means to take/snatch upward (in the clouds). It is a mistake to think anything like the rapture Paul described has ever taken place.
If you compare 1st Cor. 15, we get a new body when the rapture takes place and it cannot die. So that means there is a contradiction in the word of God, or our interpretation is wrong.
Enoch and Elijah was taken into Heaven for sure, but they were not "changed" and given a new body, because they could not die again- if they got a new immortal body. It says Elijah was taken into Heaven by a chariot-by angels. This could be how Enoch went too, it don't say.
Angels carry our souls to Heaven when we die and do the harvesting when Jesus comes back. They are our "ride", and it's going to be cool!I believe the "horses" we are riding on are these angels (cherubs), in Rev 19. Notice in second coming context in Psalm 18, what Jesus rides on, so...
7Then the earth shook and quaked;
And the foundations of the mountains were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.
8Smoke went up out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.
9He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
10He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.
11He made darkness His hiding place, His canopy around Him,
Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
12From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
13The LORD also thundered in the heavens,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.
So, as far as the two witnesses, it could be them or Moses (my pick)-because he was on the mount of transfiguration, and he does represent the law with Elijah representing the prophets. Elijah is one of them for sure-Jesus said so.
We are appointed to die once and then face the judgment-they are linked in the passage. Does that mean we could not die and then God raise us up without changing us if He wanted- like Laz, and the young girl in Luke 8. They died twice as far as we know, and my wife is a nurse in the ICU and has seen plenty of people die for a short time and come back. If you are right about only dying once, then Enoch and Elijah are it, but they never got a resurrection body, this we can know for certain.
We must remember, as true born again Christians we have passed from death unto life, and our sin has already been judged on the cross. Our works await judgment-which will happen after the resurrection. The unsaved will be raised and judged only on the merits of their works, and none of them are righteous enough to pass Gods judgement.
The 24 elders would have be those raised after Jesus was raised and would be the "wave " offering of grain along with Jesus who is the first fruits. They would have new bodies, and are shown as such in Rev. All this is rooted in the appointed feasts the Lord gave Israel. Jesus will fulfill all the feasts, the feast of trumpets is next.
Who knows what deception will happen in the coming years? If we believe Jesus, believe the word, and trust what He taught us in the Olivet Discourse, we cannot be deceived. He told us before. Who are we going to believe is the question I ask to everyone?
Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).
(Rev. 3:10). "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently. I will also KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth."
To me, that seems to mean, God will rescue the born again believers in the rapture, prior to the Great Tribulation, and while that's going on down on earth, we'll be attending the Wedding of the Lamb in heaven (Rev.19:7-8). Also we will receive our room in heaven that's now being prepared for us (John 14:2-3).
I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.
In my opinion, based on scripture...If you watch the video, you will see it is based on scripture instead of any man's opinion.
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Ya... but Hitler did that in the late 30's and was still defeated by the simple fact that there where people praying for defeat of his evil rebellion.More correctly, a ton if they have seized political power over several countries military forces or exert a high degree of influence over others not directly controlled.
I would have clicked "I agree" with this post but I am not allowed to. Apparently I did a terrible thing. I thought some of these posts were so absurd that the person was joking and so I clicked funny. But they weren't joking, they were serious! Can you imagine how hurtful that is for someone to laugh at your intricately constructed Biblical interpretation.
In my opinion, based on scripture...
better?
The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. There are several books in the New Testament which do not contain the word "church".
We find members of the New Covenant Church in the verse below.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb, and not be a part of Christ's Church.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
I think a lot of folks today teach we will all have to be killed, and there will be no rapture. They mock God's Word, calling it an "escape plan".Not everyone has to die, those Christians alive at the rapture will not experience death.
Be careful using the rating buttons.. If you "offend" someone, you may be reported.Who or what would dare to not allow you to click "I agree"?
If the post entertains you, feel free to laugh as loud and long as you wish.
Then provide Scripture to disprove my "intricately constructed Biblical interpretation".
That could be difficult, since you agree that the interpretation is Biblical.
I do not understand your post.Satan is a serpent, an old Dragon, and from that you have constructed a vivid interpretation that all the world leaders, all the fake media, they will push a story that the people being raptured were abducted by aliens. And that is what Gen 3 and Daniel and Paul say?
As wild as that sounds, the second part of this story is just as wild, they say this to calm people down. "Don't worry, that kooky Christian brother of yours wasn't raptured, he was abducted by aliens".
And the third part of this story is even more unbelievable. At a time where the entire world realizes the media is fake, they are censoring the truth, and the governments are lying to them they will accept this story.
See post #12, the 2 videos take a while to see but a lot of ground is covered. Gives a very good case for pre-trib rapture.
Undecided on the Rapture Timing
Interesting observation...I do not understand your post.
Have you not heard of the 100's of movies over the last 60 years about alien reptiles attacking and taking over the earth?
Satan has already deceived and conditioned this world for all of his deceptions.
Satan controls the whole world. He is an angel. He is not limited by a human physical body. God literally allows Satan free reign on human beings. Humans will be his "toys" for 3.5 years. If you think Nero, Hitler, Stalin, or Mao were bad. Wait till an angel of death is unleashed without any restraint on humanity. At points, his army from sheol will be used as well. It will not get better, it will get extremely wicked. Any who think the church; men, woman, and children are subjected to Satan, they have to be very twisted in their thinking.More correctly, a ton if they have seized political power over several countries military forces or exert a high degree of influence over others not directly controlled.
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