Undecided in eschatology

[claninja]

So we agree the CONTEXT of 2Thess 2:1-8 is the Lord's Return

Though, we will disagree still. My assumption is that you believe it refers to the 2nd advent. My position is that it 2 Thessalonians 2 doesn’t refer to the 2nd advent, but the destruction of Jerusalem and the coming of Christ in judgement upon apostate Israel, which then resulted in the saints being gathered into the wedding hall.

Did the Lord Return in the first century?
Clearly you do not understand Mat 24:33-34

Christ came in judgement upon Israel in the first century.

It was addressing the Last Saint who "shall see ALL these things"... the historical fulfillment of ALL the prophecies
Jesus had just given about event happening just before His Return.

Christs generation experienced war, famine, pestilence, earthquakes, lawlessness, false prophets, the gospel going to the whole oikoumene, spirit of the antichrist, the great tribulation, Christ coming on the clouds of heaven, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and being gathered into the wedding feast.

Hence, Christ’s generation proclaimed:

1.) the end of the ages had come upon them (1 Corinthians 10:11)

2.) the end of the all things had drawn near (1 Peter 4:7)

3.) the coming of the Lord had drawn near (James 5:8-9)

4.) Christ would come in a little while and without delay (Hebrews 10:37)

5.) it was the last hour (1 john 2:18).

Considering the above and the fact Christ said “this” generation and not “that” generation, I would disagree with you on Matthew 24:34.

If I may address your PROBLEM.
You do not understand the difference between the (3rd) Christian Kingdom
and the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom (aka Revelation Beast)


Your PROBLEM is you do not understand Daniel's Four Beasts
so you ASSUME the passages related to the FOURTH BEAST
actually happen during the THIRD BEAST.


These are two (2) separate and distinct "Beasts"
you cannot CONFLATE the two Beasts and still understand the CONTEXT of a passage.

The general interpretation of all of Daniel 7 is found in vs 17-18: there would be four kingdoms, but the saints would possess the kingdom forever. Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome have all come again, but the saints continue to possess the kingdom to this day.

As to your speculative interpretation on some third Christian kingdom and fourth kingdom of the beast, I’ve never heard of this interpretation before amongst Christian forums nor among and serious scholarship……..so I’m not so sure it’s really a “problem”. I’ll just add it to the list of other speculations that futurists make about revelation.

 

[claninja]

Again you ADD to the text.
The text NEVER says the "Man of Sin" was being restrained in the first century.
You need to read the text more carefully.

Did Paul know it was called “the first century”? No.

Did Paul, in the first century as we call it today, state the restrainer was present? Yes. And Paul even added, that when the present restrainer was removed, then the man of sin would be revealed.

 

[5thKingdom]

The general interpretation of all of Daniel 7 is found in vs 17-18: there would be four kingdoms, but the saints would possess the kingdom forever. Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome have all come again, but the saints continue to possess the kingdom to this day.

Unfortunately for you SCRIPTURE destroys that "interpretation"


Dan 7:11-12
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the [Little] horn spake: I beheld even till the [fourth] beast was slain,
and his body destroyed, and GIVEN TO THE BURNING FLAME. As concerning the rest of the [Four] beasts,
they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


The Old Testament is very clear, there is a “Season and Time” on earth after the destruction of the Fourth Beast
(Revelation Beast), in which the previous Beasts continue to exist on earth, just without “dominion” (authority/rule).
The Bible teaches a “Season and Time” on earth after people of the Fourth Kingdom are “given to the Burning Flame”.
Remembering the end of Daniel’s Fourth Beast is the SAME EVENT as the end of the Revelation Beast, we should
be able to find parallel passages about this end-time event in the New Testament – and that is exactly what we find:


Rev 19:20
And the [Revelation] Beast was taken, and with him the False Prophet [the Anti-Christ]
that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the Mark of the Beast,
and them that worshipped his Image. These both were cast alive into a Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.


You don’t need to be a Bible scholar to see Daniel’s Fourth Beast being “given to the Burning Flame”
is the same event as the Revelation Beast being “cast alive into the Lake of Fire”. In both cases it represents
the end of the Fourth “Kingdom” on earth. In both cases it represents the end of the Great Tribulation “Kingdom”
and the end of Satan’s “Little Season”. In both cases it represents the people of the Fourth Kingdom being “cast alive”
into the eternal torment most people think of as “Hell”.


And that causes a problem for the (3rd) Christian Kingdom Gospel. Christian eschatology doesn’t teach about
people living on earth for a “Season and Time” after Daniel’s Fourth Beast (the Revelation Beast) is destroyed.
The Christian Gospel does not even include a Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven” after the Church Age is completed.
The Christian Gospel cannot harmonize some people living on earth after others have been “cast alive” into the
“Burning Flame” or “Lake of Fire”. This Biblical Truth remained “closed-up” and “sealed” until the Last Saints.

As to your speculative interpretation on some third Christian kingdom and fourth kingdom of the beast, I’ve never heard of this interpretation before .

And there is a good reason for that...
The Bible PROMISES the Truth about Daniel's prophecies would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" from all Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" at a time specifically called the "Time-of-the-End".
(not the "End of the Age" of the Christian Kingdom)


This means all OLD INTERPRETATIONS (like the Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome interpretation)
MUST BE WRONG because they were developed during a time when the Bible PROMISES
the Truth remained "closed-up" and "sealed"


Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed TILL THE TIME-OF-THE-END.
Many [Last Saints] shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly:
and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise [Last Saints] SHALL UNDERSTAND.


Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, EVEN TO THE TIME-OF-THE-END:
many [Last Saints] shall run to and fro, and knowledge [of the Beasts] SHALL BE INCREASED [to the Last Saints].


I do not have a "speculative interpretation" of the THIRD and FOUR Kingdoms/Beasts... I understand the Truth
which is ONLY found through the "harmony of ALL RELATED passages"


(1) the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission continued until the Last Saint is "sealed' (saved)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that fact.


(2) immediately AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" the (4th) Great Tribulation BEGINS
Again Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that fact


The (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] is also shown as:

(1) Daniel's Fourth Beast
(2) the Revelation Beast
(3) the RULE of the Anti-Christ (Little Horn, False Prophet, Man of Sin)
(4) DURING Satan's "Little Season" after being released from the Bottomless Pit



/

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
Again you ADD to the text.
The text NEVER says the "Man of Sin" was being restrained in the first century.
You need to read the text more carefully.

Did Paul know it was called “the first century”? No.

LOL
That means nothing.

Did Paul, in the first century as we call it today, state the restrainer was present? Yes. And Paul even added, that when the present restrainer was removed, then the man of sin would be revealed.

Yes sir... the "restrainer" (the Holy Spirit) was present in the first century... I never implied otherwise.
What I said was the "Man of Sin" was not present in the first century
because he does not arise until the Great Tribulation

5thKingdom said:
Again you ADD to the text.
The text NEVER says the "Man of Sin" was being restrained in the first century.
You need to read the text more carefully.

/

 

[parousia70]

Sir, if you think James 5:8-9 is talking about the Great Tribulation AFTER the Last Saints is "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]
then you are mistaken because it is talking Great Commission which ENDS when the Last Saint is "sealed"

Ok, then which "coming of the Lord" do you say was near and at the door in the late 50's AD as James Infallibly testified?

Again, Jesus is Clear. His coming would NOT be near and at the door UNTIL ALL the signs were seen.

Do you believe James was lying or just mistaken?

 

[parousia70]

Yes sir... the "restrainer" (the Holy Spirit) was present in the first century... I never implied otherwise.
What I said was the "Man of Sin" was not present in the first century
because he does not arise until the Great Tribulation

5thKingdom said:
Again you ADD to the text.
The text NEVER says the "Man of Sin" was being restrained in the first century.
You need to read the text more carefully.

Then what do you claim WAS being restrained by the restrainer in the first century?

 

[5thKingdom]

Then what do you claim WAS being restrained by the restrainer in the first century?

Sin

 

[5thKingdom]

Ok, then which "coming of the Lord" do you say was near and at the door in the late 50's AD as James Infallibly testified?

What VERSE do you think teaches the Lord's Return was NEAR in 50 AD?

Again, Jesus is Clear. His coming would NOT be near and at the door UNTIL ALL the signs were seen.

Yes, Jesus PROMISED that the Last Saints "shall see ALL these things"... the fulfillment of ALL Great Tribulation prophecies.
But he NEVER said Saints in 50 AD would see events happening 2000 year later.

Do you believe James was lying or just mistaken?

I believe you have CONFLATED the Last Saints with the Saints living in 50AD
The Bible does not conflate the two.


Since the Last Saints are living at the Last Trump and the resurrection of the dead, that means they
were able to be eyewitnesses to the historical fulfillment of ALL prophecies about the “Time-of-the-End”.
In fact, that’s exactly what Jesus promised within His end-time prophecies in Matthew chapters 24 and 25.
Jesus said the Last Saints “shall see ALL these things”, meaning historical fulfillment of ALL His prophecies.
The Last Saints “shall see” the historical fulfillment of all Great Tribulation and Revelation prophecies, since the
historical fulfillment of those prophecies all occur sometime before the Last Saints are “changed” at the Last Trump.


Mat 24:33
So likewise ye [Last Saints], when YE SHALL SEE ALL THESE THINGS,
[He just prophesied] know that it [His Return] is near, even at the doors.


This means the Last Saints “shall see” the historical fulfillment of Daniel’s “Abomination of Desolation” [Mat 24:15].
They “shall see” the historical fulfillment of all prophecies about the Great Tribulation “Kingdom of Heaven” [Mat 25:1],
including historical fulfillment of events “immediately after the Tribulation of those days” [Mat 24:29]. These Last Saints
are called the “Wise Virgins” [Mat 25:1-13] and they see the historical fulfillment of “Time-of-the-End” events which
were prophesied about themselves … events prophesied as happening while the Last Saints are living on earth.


Luk 21:28
And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads;
for your redemption draweth nigh.


Because the Last Saints “shall see all these things”, they are able to explain the fulfillment of all the prophecies
about Daniel’s Fourth Kingdom – the Revelation Beast – or the Great Tribulation “Kingdom of Heaven” [Mat 25:1].
They can explain, with great specificity, details about the fulfillment of all prophecies on Satan’s “Little Season”.
Their testimony (Gospel) provides NEW details on the who/what/when/where of “Time-of-the-End” prophecies.


/

 

[claninja]

Unfortunately for you SCRIPTURE destroys that "interpretation"


Dan 7:11-12
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the [Little] horn spake: I beheld even till the [fourth] beast was slain,
and his body destroyed, and GIVEN TO THE BURNING FLAME. As concerning the rest of the [Four] beasts,
they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


The Old Testament is very clear, there is a “Season and Time” on earth after the destruction of the Fourth Beast
(Revelation Beast), in which the previous Beasts continue to exist on earth, just without “dominion” (authority/rule).
The Bible teaches a “Season and Time” on earth after people of the Fourth Kingdom are “given to the Burning Flame”.
Remembering the end of Daniel’s Fourth Beast is the SAME EVENT as the end of the Revelation Beast, we should
be able to find parallel passages about this end-time event in the New Testament – and that is exactly what we find:


Rev 19:20
And the [Revelation] Beast was taken, and with him the False Prophet [the Anti-Christ]
that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the Mark of the Beast,
and them that worshipped his Image. These both were cast alive into a Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.


You don’t need to be a Bible scholar to see Daniel’s Fourth Beast being “given to the Burning Flame”
is the same event as the Revelation Beast being “cast alive into the Lake of Fire”. In both cases it represents
the end of the Fourth “Kingdom” on earth. In both cases it represents the end of the Great Tribulation “Kingdom”
and the end of Satan’s “Little Season”. In both cases it represents the people of the Fourth Kingdom being “cast alive”
into the eternal torment most people think of as “Hell”.


And that causes a problem for the (3rd) Christian Kingdom Gospel. Christian eschatology doesn’t teach about
people living on earth for a “Season and Time” after Daniel’s Fourth Beast (the Revelation Beast) is destroyed.
The Christian Gospel does not even include a Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven” after the Church Age is completed.
The Christian Gospel cannot harmonize some people living on earth after others have been “cast alive” into the
“Burning Flame” or “Lake of Fire”. This Biblical Truth remained “closed-up” and “sealed” until the Last Saints.






And there is a good reason for that...
The Bible PROMISES the Truth about Daniel's prophecies would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" from all Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" at a time specifically called the "Time-of-the-End".
(not the "End of the Age" of the Christian Kingdom)


This means all OLD INTERPRETATIONS (like the Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome interpretation)
MUST BE WRONG because they were developed during a time when the Bible PROMISES
the Truth remained "closed-up" and "sealed"


Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed TILL THE TIME-OF-THE-END.
Many [Last Saints] shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly:
and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise [Last Saints] SHALL UNDERSTAND.


Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, EVEN TO THE TIME-OF-THE-END:
many [Last Saints] shall run to and fro, and knowledge [of the Beasts] SHALL BE INCREASED [to the Last Saints].


I do not have a "speculative interpretation" of the THIRD and FOUR Kingdoms/Beasts... I understand the Truth
which is ONLY found through the "harmony of ALL RELATED passages"


(1) the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission continued until the Last Saint is "sealed' (saved)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that fact.


(2) immediately AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" the (4th) Great Tribulation BEGINS
Again Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that fact


The (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] is also shown as:

(1) Daniel's Fourth Beast
(2) the Revelation Beast
(3) the RULE of the Anti-Christ (Little Horn, False Prophet, Man of Sin)
(4) DURING Satan's "Little Season" after being released from the Bottomless Pit



/

Thanks for sharing, but this is a convoluted mess that attempts to connect dots that don’t connect. I’ll stick with the simple and general understanding of the chapter: 4 kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) but the saints would possess the kingdom forever. Can we confirm the disciples were possessing a kingdom during the fourth kingdom of Rome? We sure can:

mark 1:15 15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has drawn near ;e repent and believe in the gospel.”

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Hebrews 12:28 28Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29for our God is a consuming fire.

5thKingdom said:
Again you ADD to the text.
The text NEVER says the "Man of Sin" was being restrained in the first century.
You need to read the text more carefully.



LOL
That means nothing.





Yes sir... the "restrainer" (the Holy Spirit) was present in the first century... I never implied otherwise.
What I said was the "Man of Sin" was not present in the first century
because he does not arise until the Great Tribulation

5thKingdom said:
Again you ADD to the text.
The text NEVER says the "Man of Sin" was being restrained in the first century.
You need to read the text more carefully.

/

I absolutely agree the man of sin wasn’t being restrained in the first century. I absolutely agree that the text never says the man of sin was being restrained. My argument was never that, in case you have misunderstood or are attempting to make a strawman.


Is it your position that the restrainer has been not yet restraining for the last 2,000 years?

7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains will do so until he is out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9

 

[claninja]

Sin

The text never says “sin” is restrained.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yeaaahhhh! Welcome back!!!!

Thanks.

Let's roll!

 

[5thKingdom]

The text never says “sin” is restrained.

The text does not need to.
The Saints already know WHO restrains sin.

 

[5thKingdom]

I’ll stick with the simple and general understanding of the chapter: 4 kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome)

You have two (2) problems:


(1) the Bible PROMISES [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10] the TRUTH of Daniel's prophecies would remain "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand" during a period called the "Time-of-the-End"


This means that EVERY OLD INTERPRETATION (like Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome)
MUST BE WRONG because they were developed during a time when the Bible PROMISED
the Truth remains "closed-up" and "sealed"

So you have a choice...
Do you REJECT Daniel 12 and pretend Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome represent Daniel's Beasts
OR do you change your eschatology because that old interpretation MUST BE WRONG?


BTW... Daniel's Four Beasts REALLY represent
the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


JESUS specifically NAMED 3 of 4 of these "Beasts" as being a "Kingdom of Heaven"...
WHY in the world do you not believe what JESUS specifically NAMED?


(2) If Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome represent the four Beasts then WHAT do you do with
Daniel 7:11-12 and Revelation 19:20?


While this was not taught or understood by Saints living during the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom/Beast,
and while this was never taught or understood by Saints living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom/Beast,
the Bible speaks (in many places) about a period AFTER the destruction of the Fourth/Revelation Beast,
during a time specifically named the “Season and Time”. The Gospel of the Last Saints includes this Truth.


Dan 7:11-12
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the [Little] Horn spake:
I beheld even till the [Fourth] Beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the Burning Flame.
As concerning the rest of the Beasts [the remaining Beasts], they had their dominion taken away:
yet their lives were prolonged for a Season and Time.


The Old Testament is very clear, there is a “Season and Time” on earth after the destruction of the Fourth Beast
(Revelation Beast), in which the previous Beasts continue to exist on earth, just without “dominion” (authority/rule).
The Bible teaches a “Season and Time” on earth after people of the Fourth Kingdom are “given to the Burning Flame”.
Remembering the end of Daniel’s Fourth Beast is the SAME EVENT as the end of the Revelation Beast, we should
be able to find parallel passages about this end-time event in the New Testament – and that is exactly what we find:


Rev 19:20
And the [Revelation] Beast was taken, and with him the False Prophet [the Anti-Christ]
that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the Mark of the Beast,
and them that worshipped his Image. These both were cast alive into a Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.


You don’t need to be a Bible scholar to see Daniel’s Fourth Beast being “given to the Burning Flame”
is the same event as the Revelation Beast being “cast alive into the Lake of Fire”. In both cases it represents
the end of the Fourth “Kingdom” on earth. In both cases it represents the end of the Great Tribulation “Kingdom”
and the end of Satan’s “Little Season”. In both cases it represents the people of the Fourth Kingdom being “cast alive”
into the eternal torment most people think of as “Hell”.


And that causes a problem for the (3rd) Christian Kingdom Gospel. Christian eschatology doesn’t teach about
people living on earth for a “Season and Time” after Daniel’s Fourth Beast (the Revelation Beast) is destroyed.
The Christian Gospel does not even include a Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven” after the Church Age is completed.
The Christian Gospel cannot harmonize some people living on earth after others have been “cast alive” into the
“Burning Flame” or “Lake of Fire”. This Biblical Truth remained “closed-up” and “sealed” until the Last Saints.


Christian Saints were never meant to understand the historical fulfillment of “Time of the End” events [Acts 1:7].
Just as the Jewish Saints were never meant to understand the end of their “Kingdom”, so also, Christian Saints
were never meant to understand the end of their “Kingdom of Heaven”. The Jewish Gospel and Christian Gospel
did not understand Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom/Beast”. Those Truths remained “sealed” until the “Time of the End”.


So there you have it....
If you preach Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome as the four Beast...
then you must teach [Dan 7:11-12] the PEOPLE in the Babylonian/Persian/Greek empires
"have their lives prolonged" on the earth for a "Season and Time"
AFTER the Romans are "cast into the Lake of Fire".


Do you REALLY preach some PEOPLE live on earth
AFTER others are cast into Hell?
Do you preach that?

/

 

[claninja]

The text does not need to.
The Saints already know WHO restrains sin.

The Thessalonians did, anyone else is just speculating.

But it’s good to know your counter arguments include “the text does not need to”.

 

[claninja]

You have two (2) problems:


(1) the Bible PROMISES [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10] the TRUTH of Daniel's prophecies would remain "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand" during a period called the "Time-of-the-End"


This means that EVERY OLD INTERPRETATION (like Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome)
MUST BE WRONG because they were developed during a time when the Bible PROMISED
the Truth remains "closed-up" and "sealed"

So you have a choice...
Do you REJECT Daniel 12 and pretend Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome represent Daniel's Beasts
OR do you change your eschatology because that old interpretation MUST BE WRONG?


BTW... Daniel's Four Beasts REALLY represent
the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


JESUS specifically NAMED 3 of 4 of these "Beasts" as being a "Kingdom of Heaven"...
WHY in the world do you not believe what JESUS specifically NAMED?


(2) If Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome represent the four Beasts then WHAT do you do with
Daniel 7:11-12 and Revelation 19:20?


While this was not taught or understood by Saints living during the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom/Beast,
and while this was never taught or understood by Saints living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom/Beast,
the Bible speaks (in many places) about a period AFTER the destruction of the Fourth/Revelation Beast,
during a time specifically named the “Season and Time”. The Gospel of the Last Saints includes this Truth.


Dan 7:11-12
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the [Little] Horn spake:
I beheld even till the [Fourth] Beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the Burning Flame.
As concerning the rest of the Beasts [the remaining Beasts], they had their dominion taken away:
yet their lives were prolonged for a Season and Time.


The Old Testament is very clear, there is a “Season and Time” on earth after the destruction of the Fourth Beast
(Revelation Beast), in which the previous Beasts continue to exist on earth, just without “dominion” (authority/rule).
The Bible teaches a “Season and Time” on earth after people of the Fourth Kingdom are “given to the Burning Flame”.
Remembering the end of Daniel’s Fourth Beast is the SAME EVENT as the end of the Revelation Beast, we should
be able to find parallel passages about this end-time event in the New Testament – and that is exactly what we find:


Rev 19:20
And the [Revelation] Beast was taken, and with him the False Prophet [the Anti-Christ]
that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the Mark of the Beast,
and them that worshipped his Image. These both were cast alive into a Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.


You don’t need to be a Bible scholar to see Daniel’s Fourth Beast being “given to the Burning Flame”
is the same event as the Revelation Beast being “cast alive into the Lake of Fire”. In both cases it represents
the end of the Fourth “Kingdom” on earth. In both cases it represents the end of the Great Tribulation “Kingdom”
and the end of Satan’s “Little Season”. In both cases it represents the people of the Fourth Kingdom being “cast alive”
into the eternal torment most people think of as “Hell”.


And that causes a problem for the (3rd) Christian Kingdom Gospel. Christian eschatology doesn’t teach about
people living on earth for a “Season and Time” after Daniel’s Fourth Beast (the Revelation Beast) is destroyed.
The Christian Gospel does not even include a Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven” after the Church Age is completed.
The Christian Gospel cannot harmonize some people living on earth after others have been “cast alive” into the
“Burning Flame” or “Lake of Fire”. This Biblical Truth remained “closed-up” and “sealed” until the Last Saints.


Christian Saints were never meant to understand the historical fulfillment of “Time of the End” events [Acts 1:7].
Just as the Jewish Saints were never meant to understand the end of their “Kingdom”, so also, Christian Saints
were never meant to understand the end of their “Kingdom of Heaven”. The Jewish Gospel and Christian Gospel
did not understand Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom/Beast”. Those Truths remained “sealed” until the “Time of the End”.


So there you have it....
If you preach Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome as the four Beast...
then you must teach [Dan 7:11-12] the PEOPLE in the Babylonian/Persian/Greek empires
"have their lives prolonged" on the earth for a "Season and Time"
AFTER the Romans are "cast into the Lake of Fire".


Do you REALLY preach some PEOPLE live on earth
AFTER others are cast into Hell?
Do you preach that?

/

So because Daniel was told to seal up the the visions IN Daniel 10-12, then the traditional interpretation of the four beasts, in Daniel 7, being understood as Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome is wrong? That’s not even a logical conclusion, especially considering Jesus preached the kingdom of God had drawn near during the Roman Empire.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

So because Daniel was told to seal up the the visions IN Daniel 10-12, then the traditional interpretation of the four beasts, in Daniel 7, being understood as Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome is wrong? That’s not even a logical conclusion, especially considering Jesus preached the kingdom of God had drawn near during the Roman Empire.

Revelation picks the story here. The Book of Revelation contains some of what was held back from Daniel, the Gospel of John (the Baptist) is the rest of the material.
Re:13:1-3:
And I stood upon the sand of the sea,
and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
having seven heads and ten horns,
and upon his horns ten crowns,
and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard,
and his feet were as the feet of a bear,
and his mouth as the mouth of a lion:
and the dragon gave him his power,
and his seat,
and great authority.
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;
and his deadly wound was healed:
and all the world wondered after the beast.

Like Da:7 the text is about just the 4th beast. The Da:7 vision and explanation references 10 men, the vision and explanation in Re:17 reference the same 10 men.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

The text never says “sin” is restrained.

2Thess:2 should be Vs:1-6, with those it promotes a falling away from the truth (aka False Christians) as well as Satan sitting on a throne. That can only happen during the tine the two witnesses are dead in the street.
The letter is referencing Revelation as Re::1-3 show.

 

[parousia70]

What VERSE do you think teaches the Lord's Return was NEAR in 50 AD?

Are you serious?
I gave it already.
Please pay Better attention.

James 5:8-9
8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

Again, do you assert James was simply mistaken or do you claim he was outright lying?

Of course there are plenty of others as well...
“For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)
“The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)
“The Lord is near.” (Phil. 4:5)
“Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)
“It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

To name just a few of the over 100 verses that indicate this fact.

 

[parousia70]

The text does not need to.

This sums up your view perfectly.

You feel that the text does not need to teach what you assert.
You can assert anything you want regardless of whether the text teaches it or not.

Must be a very liberating feeling not to have to adhear to the text at all and just believe whatever you want, huh?

Do we all get to do it that way, or is it just you that has that privelege?

 

[DavidPT]

Are you serious?
I gave it already.
Please pay Better attention.

James 5:8-9
8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

Again, do you assert James was simply mistaken or do you claim he was outright lying?

Of course there are plenty of others as well...
“For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)
“The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)
“The Lord is near.” (Phil. 4:5)
“Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)
“It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

To name just a few of the over 100 verses that indicate this fact.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.


Apparently, you disregard this part in verse 7 in order to arrive at what you are concluding--Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Your interpretation turns this long patience into very little patience instead, even though the text says long patience, not short patience. Can you not even visualize in your mind what this might involve---the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain?

In verse 8 he is not telling them to be patient for the reasons that you think, as if they are waiting for the coming of the Lord to take place in their lifetimes. How could James possibly know in advance that the coming of the Lord will occur in their lifetime when only the Father knows that day and hour? How could James possibly know in advance, assuming the coming of the Lord could occur during their lifetime, that all of them would still be alive at the time?

Does that mean he lied to some of them, and some of them he didn't, if the the coming of the Lord happens during the days they are living in, but that some of them he is addressing, they die before that day arrives, while others that he is addressing here, they are still alive when that day arrives? James has no control over when one dies or doesn't die. He couldn't possibly know that in advance, pertaining to the ones he was addressing at the time. Therefore, what is the point of him telling them to be patient until the coming of the Lord, when James couldn't possibly know in advance when that might occur, and that he couldn't possibly know in advance when any of the ones he was addressing might die? The point can't be what you are thinking, that's for certain.