Undecided in eschatology

[parousia70]

No.... I do not need only to demonstrate anything

Thats right. You just believe and assert whatever you want, regardless of whether or not it's scriptural.

Sorry I forgot about that.

You've just finally earned a spot on my ignore list. I really need to keep my discussions confined to people who actually support their views with scripture.

Have fun out there friend. God Bless.

 

[5thKingdom]

James, writing some 30 years later under the infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit claimed at that time that the Lord's coming was indeed "near and at the door".

What VERSE in James says "near and at the door"?
You are ADDING to the text.


/

 

[5thKingdom]

Thats right. You just believe and assert whatever you want, regardless of whether or not it's scriptural.

Here is what you quoted me saying:


5thKingdom said:
No.... I do not need only to demonstrate anything


And here is what I actually said:


No.... I need only to demonstrate the CONTEXT of the "latter rains"


Are you actually asking WHY Saints in the first century needed to be patient...
how about they needed to WAIT until the Great Commission was completed
and the Last Saint had been "sealed".


Act 1:7-8
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me
both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

You've just finally earned a spot on my ignore list. I really need to keep my discussions confined to people who actually support their views with scripture.

I have supported my comments with Scripture...
but you intentionally ignore that Scripture,
as we see in the post above.

As to being on your "ignore" list.
That only prevents me from wasting time on you.
You have actually done me a favor. Thank you


/

 

[DavidPT]

I would argue we need look no further than Matthew 21:40-45 for your answer:

40 “Therefore, when the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.


Jesus Christ, Lord of the Vineyard, is the stone of Matthew 21:42-44 who came and crushed those wicked men to powder, on time, as prophesied.

I'll just have to counter with following for now since we are already discussing Luke 21:31 and that in my mind, all of the following prove my interpretion is correct while yours isn't. Which then debunks anything you are arguing. At least in my mind it does, maybe not in yours, though.


Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.


This account starts out like such---because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

Then Jesus spake a parable. And that the parable then goes on to explain why the kingdom of God does not immediately appear at that particular time.

A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Obviously, it can't immediately appear at the particular time if it first involves Jesus having to literally bodily leave the planet, then return literally bodily to heaven in order to receive for Himself a kingdom, then to literally bodily return to this same planet, where the following verse shows Him doing just that.

And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

What should we then assume verse 15 equals if not that the kingdom of God appearing at the time? Before He left, did it immediately appear? No, and verse 12 tells us why. Why would it still not appear once He has returned, after having received the kingdom? How does that make sense?

If we then compare with Luke 21:31--know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand---we know this is obviously meaning after He went back to heaven and received for Himself a kingdom, but before He returns in the end of this age, the fact it is nigh at hand at this point, and that it would no longer still be nigh at hand once Luke 19:15 is fulfilled.

This is pertaining to the coming involving Matthew 24:30. The coming involving Matthew 21:40-45that you brought up is not the same coming Matthew 24:30 is involving. You first have to prove it is since you are using that coming as an argument against what I'm arguing.

 

[parousia70]

I'll just have to counter with following for now since we are already discussing Luke 21:31 and that in my mind, all of the following prove my interpretion is correct while yours isn't. Which then debunks anything you are arguing. At least in my mind it does, maybe not in yours, though.


Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.


This account starts out like such---because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

Then Jesus spake a parable. And that the parable then goes on to explain why the kingdom of God does not immediately appear at that particular time.

A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Obviously, it can't immediately appear at the particular time if it first involves Jesus having to literally bodily leave the planet, then return literally bodily to heaven in order to receive for Himself a kingdom, then to literally bodily return to this same planet, where the following verse shows Him doing just that.

And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

What should we then assume verse 15 equals if not that the kingdom of God appearing at the time? Before He left, did it immediately appear? No, and verse 12 tells us why. Why would it still not appear once He has returned, after having received the kingdom? How does that make sense?

If we then compare with Luke 21:31--know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand---we know this is obviously meaning after He went back to heaven and received for Himself a kingdom, but before He returns in the end of this age, the fact it is nigh at hand at this point, and that it would no longer still be nigh at hand once Luke 19:15 is fulfilled.

This is pertaining to the coming involving Matthew 24:30. The coming involving Matthew 21:40-45that you brought up is not the same coming Matthew 24:30 is involving. You first have to prove it is since you are using that coming as an argument against what I'm arguing.

The Hitch in your giddyup appears to be the fact that the Nobleman in the parable returns to the very same servants he left, not some other servants thousands of years removed from them.

He gives specific servants money and tells them to "occupy till I come" and upon his return TO THEM, He "commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money".

There is simply no room for inserting a multi thousand year gap and a completely different group of servants into the "upon his return" portion of this parable.

However, I do appreciate your tacit concession that AD 70 was in fact a “coming of Jesus Christ in Judgement”, [per Matt 21:40-45] even if not what you would refer to as the “second coming”.

But then I have to wonder, how many post ascension comings of Jesus Christ in judgment do you believe are prophesied?

I presume now, at least two?

 

[claninja]

The CONTEXT of the passage is AFTER the "latter rains"
Denying that reality does not negate the Truth.

/

Lol What?

The early and latter rains are the spring and fall rains in Israel. James is using and earthly story about a farmer being patient, to exhort his audience to be patient for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

“Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer awaits the precious fruit of the soil—how patient he is for the fall and spring rains You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord has drawn near.”

Why would James exhort his audience to be patient about an event they would never be alive for? That doesn’t make any sense.

 

[claninja]

What VERSE in James says "near and at the door"?
You are ADDING to the text.


/

“Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door”

How can someone be “standing at the door” without being near the door?

 

[claninja]

I'll just have to counter with following for now since we are already discussing Luke 21:31 and that in my mind, all of the following prove my interpretion is correct while yours isn't. Which then debunks anything you are arguing. At least in my mind it does, maybe not in yours, though.


Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.


This account starts out like such---because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

Then Jesus spake a parable. And that the parable then goes on to explain why the kingdom of God does not immediately appear at that particular time.

A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Obviously, it can't immediately appear at the particular time if it first involves Jesus having to literally bodily leave the planet, then return literally bodily to heaven in order to receive for Himself a kingdom, then to literally bodily return to this same planet, where the following verse shows Him doing just that.

And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

What should we then assume verse 15 equals if not that the kingdom of God appearing at the time? Before He left, did it immediately appear? No, and verse 12 tells us why. Why would it still not appear once He has returned, after having received the kingdom? How does that make sense?

If we then compare with Luke 21:31--know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand---we know this is obviously meaning after He went back to heaven and received for Himself a kingdom, but before He returns in the end of this age, the fact it is nigh at hand at this point, and that it would no longer still be nigh at hand once Luke 19:15 is fulfilled.

This is pertaining to the coming involving Matthew 24:30. The coming involving Matthew 21:40-45that you brought up is not the same coming Matthew 24:30 is involving. You first have to prove it is since you are using that coming as an argument against what I'm arguing.

Yea, the king returns to destroy the very same people who didn’t want him to be king over them

“But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’”

“But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me”

 

[5thKingdom]

“But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’”
"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me”

This is a good example of when people try to understand the MEANING of Scripture
before they discern the CONTEXT of a passage.


The comments above assumes the passage addresses Saints living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission.
In fact, the passage is directed to Saints living in the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


Notice the CONTEXT of the passage


Luke 19:11-15
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem,
and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. [the Third Kingdom Saints]
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, [Jesus ascension] and to return.
And he called his ten servants [shown as Ten "Virgins" of the Fourth Kingdom in Mat 25], and delivered them ten pounds,
and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens [the unsaved "tares" in the Ten Virgins] hated him, and sent a message after him,
saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom,
then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know
how much every man had gained by trading.


Do you SEE THAT?

The CONTEXT of the rest of this passage is on the Saints of the Fourth Kingdom AFTER he "having RECEIVED the Kingdom".
The CONTEXT is not on Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom... it's on the Saints of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.
Therefore, any attempt to relate this passage to Saints of the (3rd) Great Commission BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"
[Rev 7:1-3] is completely wrong because the passage relates to Saints of the in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom
AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed".


This is like CONFLATING the (2nd) Jewish "Beast/Kingdom" with the (3rd) Christian "Beast/Kingdom"


We cannot HOPE to find the Biblical MEANING of a passage when we cannot discern the CONTEXT of that passage...
does it relate to Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" or does it relate
to Saints in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"?


Understanding the CONTEXT of a Scripture really is Christian Theology 101.
I hope this example shows the reality of how important that is.


/

 

[5thKingdom]

“Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door”

How can someone be “standing at the door” without being near the door?

Of course the Judge is "standing at the door" throughout BOTH the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission
BEFORE the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved) and throughout the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom
AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]


However... it is ONLY during the (4th) Great Tribulation that the (Last) Saints are told
they "shall see ALL these things", meaning the fulfillment of ALL the Great Tribulation prophecies
Jesus had just revealed.


AND... it is ONLY during the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom the Last Saints are told HIS RETURN
is "at the doors". So, it's important to understand what the TEXT says because
people tend to imagine things if they do not read carefully.


Since the Last Saints are living at the Last Trump and the resurrection of the dead, that means they
were able to be eyewitnesses to the historical fulfillment of ALL prophecies about the “Time-of-the-End”.
In fact, that’s exactly what Jesus promised within His end-time prophecies in Matthew chapters 24 and 25.
Jesus said the Last Saints “shall see ALL these things”, meaning historical fulfillment of ALL His prophecies.
The Last Saints “shall see” the historical fulfillment of all Great Tribulation and Revelation prophecies, since the
historical fulfillment of those prophecies all occur sometime before the Last Saints are “changed” at the Last Trump.


Mat 24:33
So likewise ye [Last Saints], when YE SHALL SEE ALL THESE THINGS,
[He just prophesied] know that it [His Return] is near, even at the doors.


This means the Last Saints “shall see” the historical fulfillment of Daniel’s “Abomination of Desolation” [Mat 24:15].
They “shall see” the historical fulfillment of all prophecies about the Great Tribulation “Kingdom of Heaven” [Mat 25:1],
including historical fulfillment of events “immediately after the Tribulation of those days” [Mat 24:29]. These Last Saints
are called the “Wise Virgins” [Mat 25:1-13] and they see the historical fulfillment of “Time-of-the-End” events which
were prophesied about themselves … events prophesied as happening while the Last Saints are living on earth.


Luk 21:28
And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads;
for your redemption draweth nigh.



Because the Last Saints “shall see all these things”, they are able to explain the fulfillment of all the prophecies
about Daniel’s Fourth Kingdom – the Revelation Beast – or the Great Tribulation “Kingdom of Heaven” [Mat 25:1].
They can explain, with great specificity, details about the fulfillment of all prophecies on Satan’s “Little Season”.
Their testimony (Gospel) provides NEW details on the who/what/when/where of “Time-of-the-End” prophecies.


And they ALONE can know when HIS RETURN is "at the doors"


I hope this demonstrates the DIFFERENCE between the Judge "standing at the door"
and the Last Saints who "shall see ALL these things" knowing that His Return is "even at the doors".


In fact, the Last Saints (the "wise virgins" of Matthew 25) are shown to be taken
into the "marriage" (during the Final Harvest) and THE DOOR WAS SHUT.


Mat 25:10
And while they [the unsaved "foolish virgins"] went to buy, the Bridegroom [Jesus] Came;
and they that were ready [the saved "wise virgins"] went in with him to the MARRIAGE:
and the DOOR WAS SHUT.


/

 

[5thKingdom]

Lol What?

The early and latter rains are the spring and fall rains in Israel. James is using and earthly story about a farmer being patient, to exhort his audience to be patient for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

That would be correct if we were talking about the PHYSICAL "type" which is a "shadow" of the SPIRITUAL FULFILLMENT.


The early rains represent God sending His rain (the Gospel) during a particular TIME.
The latter rains represent the same thing but much LATER... during the "Time-of-the-End".


You see... if you want to understand the PHYSICAL fulfillment then study Jewish traditions.
If you want to understand the SPIRITUAL fulfillment then you must dig MUCH deeper.


Your error is a common error because MOST people cannot understand the difference
between the PHYSICAL "type" (like circumcision) and the SPIRITUAL fulfillment.
However, understanding the DIFFENCE is "given" to the Last Saints.


/

 

[5thKingdom]

The Hitch in your giddyup appears to be the fact that the Nobleman in the parable returns to the very same servants he left, not some other servants thousands of years removed from them.

LOL...
The most common error about this subject:

This is a good example of when people try to understand the MEANING of Scripture
before they discern the CONTEXT of a passage.


The comments above assumes the passage addresses Saints living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission.
In fact, the passage is directed to Saints living in the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


Notice the CONTEXT of the passage


Luke 19:11-15
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem,
and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. [the Third Kingdom Saints]
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, [Jesus ascension] and to return.
And he called his ten servants [shown as Ten "Virgins" of the Fourth Kingdom in Mat 25], and delivered them ten pounds,
and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens [the unsaved "tares" in the Ten Virgins] hated him, and sent a message after him,
saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom,
then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know
how much every man had gained by trading.


Do you SEE THAT?

The CONTEXT of the rest of this passage is on the Saints of the Fourth Kingdom AFTER he "having RECEIVED the Kingdom".
The CONTEXT is not on Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom... it's on the Saints of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.
Therefore, any attempt to relate this passage to Saints of the (3rd) Great Commission BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"
[Rev 7:1-3] is completely wrong because the passage relates to Saints of the in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom
AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed".


This is like CONFLATING the (2nd) Jewish "Beast/Kingdom" with the (3rd) Christian "Beast/Kingdom"


We cannot HOPE to find the Biblical MEANING of a passage when we cannot discern the CONTEXT of that passage...
does it relate to Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" or does it relate
to Saints in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"?


Understanding the CONTEXT of a Scripture really is Christian Theology 101.
I hope this example shows the reality of how important that is.


/

 

[claninja]

This is a good example of when people try to understand the MEANING of Scripture
before they discern the CONTEXT of a passage.


The comments above assumes the passage addresses Saints living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission.
In fact, the passage is directed to Saints living in the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


Notice the CONTEXT of the passage


Luke 19:11-15
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem,
and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. [the Third Kingdom Saints]
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, [Jesus ascension] and to return.
And he called his ten servants [shown as Ten "Virgins" of the Fourth Kingdom in Mat 25], and delivered them ten pounds,
and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens [the unsaved "tares" in the Ten Virgins] hated him, and sent a message after him,
saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom,
then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know
how much every man had gained by trading.


Do you SEE THAT?

The CONTEXT of the rest of this passage is on the Saints of the Fourth Kingdom AFTER he "having RECEIVED the Kingdom".
The CONTEXT is not on Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom... it's on the Saints of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.
Therefore, any attempt to relate this passage to Saints of the (3rd) Great Commission BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"
[Rev 7:1-3] is completely wrong because the passage relates to Saints of the in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom
AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed".


This is like CONFLATING the (2nd) Jewish "Beast/Kingdom" with the (3rd) Christian "Beast/Kingdom"


We cannot HOPE to find the Biblical MEANING of a passage when we cannot discern the CONTEXT of that passage...
does it relate to Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" or does it relate
to Saints in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"?


Understanding the CONTEXT of a Scripture really is Christian Theology 101.
I hope this example shows the reality of how important that is.


/

I’ve never heard of the whole 3rd kingdom and 4th kingdom theology. Is there any serious scholarship that teaches this? Or did you make this up?

In the parable of the nobleman going to a far country, the very same people who don’t want the nobleman to be king, are the very same ones the nobleman returns to. No way around that.

In regards to the “last days saints”. That would be the generation of the apostles, who stated they were living in the last days (acts 2:16-17), who believed the end of the ages had come upon them (1 Corinthians 10:11), who stated the end of the all things was at hand (1 Peter 4:7), who stated Christ would come in a little while and without delay (Hebrews 10:37), who stated it was the last hour (1 john 2:18), and who stated the coming of Christ was at hand (James 5:8).

It is this very generation who would not pass away until all the events of the olivet discourse had begun (matthew 24:34). it is this very generation that would not die until the kingdom of God came with power (mark 9:1). It is the very generation that would not make it through all the towns in Israel before the son of man would come (matthew 10:23).

I hope this demonstrates the DIFFERENCE between the Judge "standing at the door"
and the Last Saints who "shall see ALL these things" knowing that His Return is "even at the doors".

No, it actually doesn’t. Instead, It convolutes the plain meaning of the text in order to foist up an unknown theological teaching such as “third kingdom” and “fourth kingdom”.

Its very simple, Jesus said when his audience would see the things of the olivet discourse, then they would know he was near, at the very door. James declares the coming of the lord was near and the judge was standing at the door.

so let’s see, did James’ generation lived through famine, war, pestilence, persecution, lawlessness, false prophets, the gospel going to the whole oikoumene, the son of man coming on the clouds, the kingdom of God coming with power, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and the gathering of the good and bad into the wedding hall?

Yes.

That would be correct if we were talking about the PHYSICAL "type" which is a "shadow" of the SPIRITUAL FULFILLMENT.


The early rains represent God sending His rain (the Gospel) during a particular TIME.
The latter rains represent the same thing but much LATER... during the "Time-of-the-End".


You see... if you want to understand the PHYSICAL fulfillment then study Jewish traditions.
If you want to understand the SPIRITUAL fulfillment then you must dig MUCH deeper.


Your error is a common error because MOST people cannot understand the difference
between the PHYSICAL "type" (like circumcision) and the SPIRITUAL fulfillment.
However, understanding the DIFFENCE is "given" to the Last Saints.

As I thought, you are forced to add a “spiritual” component to the text that isn’t there, in order to again foist up some unknown theological belief.

James is using an earthly story about a farmer’s patience, in order to exhort the 12 tribes in the diaspora to be patient for the coming of the Lord. No need to convolute what is actually just simple story used to make a point.

 

[5thKingdom]

I’ve never heard of the whole 3rd kingdom and 4th kingdom theology. Is there any serious scholarship that teaches this? Or did you make this up?

Yes, there is a lot of "serious scholarship" involved with understanding the FOUR BEASTS/KINGDOMS on earth.


However, the Bible PROMISES the TRUTH about these matters would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" from all the Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" (and preach) the TRUTH during a period named "Time-of-the-End".


This means that EVERY old "interpretation" about the Four "Beasts/Kingdom" MUST BE WRONG
because they were developed during the time when the Bible PROMISES the TRUTH would remain "sealed"


Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the TIME-OF-THE-END.
Many [Last Saints] shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly:
and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise [Last Saints] SHALL UNDERSTAND.


Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the TIME-OF-THE-END:
many [Last Saints] shall run to and fro, and knowledge [of the Truth] SHALL BE INCREASED [to the Last Saints]


Because the TRUTH is now understood (by the Last Saints) we can finally understand WHAT
the Four "Beasts/Kingdoms" represent. This is NEW INFORMATION which has been submitted
to over 200 of theologians in the best Seminaries in America and over 200 pastors teaching in some
of the most conservative and traditional (Reformed) congregations. And NONE of them were able to find
even ONE VERSE from the Bible to contradict this teaching (and many others)
AND history (reality) only confirms this "understanding".


The four "Beasts/Kingdoms" which make-up the History of Man include:

(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


Notice that JESUS specifically NAMED 3 of these "Beasts" as being a "Kingdom of Heaven".
Now why in the world would anyone REJECT what Jesus specifically NAMED?


The church has always understood the first THREE "Beasts/Kingdoms"... and history confirms them.
However the church NEVER understood the FOURTH Beast is NOT part of the Christian Great Commission
BEFORE all the Saints are saved. Instead, it is a separate and distinct BEAST which arises AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that fact.


Dan 7:7
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a FOURTH BEAST, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly;
and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it:
and it was diverse [different] from all the [other three] Beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.



/

 

[5thKingdom]

In the parable of the nobleman going to a far country, the very same people who don’t want the nobleman to be king, are the very same ones the nobleman returns to. No way around that.

(1) First, this parable is also a prophecy.


(2) Secondly, I have already SHOWN you how the people in the prophecy are NOT the people
living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved) they are people
living in the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] AFTER the Last Saint is saved.


I will RE-POST the information I ALREADY GAVE YOU... in Post #269
please read it carefully and, if you do not agree then provide SCRIPTURE to support you opinion.
The Bottom Line is the CONTEXT of the parable/prophecy is AFTER the Lord Returns "having RECEIVED the Kingdom"...
the event happens AFTER the Lord's Return.


My original Post #269...
I HATE having to repeat myself:


This is a good example of when people try to understand the MEANING of Scripture
before they discern the CONTEXT of a passage.


The comments above assumes the passage addresses Saints living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission.
In fact, the passage is directed to Saints living in the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


Notice the CONTEXT of the passage


Luke 19:11-15
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem,
and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. [the Third Kingdom Saints]
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, [Jesus ascension] and to return.
And he called his ten servants [shown as Ten "Virgins" of the Fourth Kingdom in Mat 25], and delivered them ten pounds,
and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens [the unsaved "tares" in the Ten Virgins] hated him, and sent a message after him,
saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom,
then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know
how much every man had gained by trading.


Do you SEE THAT?


The CONTEXT of the rest of this passage is on the Saints of the Fourth Kingdom AFTER he "having RECEIVED the Kingdom".
The CONTEXT is not on Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom... it's on the Saints of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.
Therefore, any attempt to relate this passage to Saints of the (3rd) Great Commission BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"
[Rev 7:1-3] is completely wrong because the passage relates to Saints of the in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom
AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed".


This is like CONFLATING the (2nd) Jewish "Beast/Kingdom" with the (3rd) Christian "Beast/Kingdom"


We cannot HOPE to find the Biblical MEANING of a passage when we cannot discern the CONTEXT of that passage...
does it relate to Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" or does it relate
to Saints in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"?


Understanding the CONTEXT of a Scripture really is Christian Theology 101.
I hope this example shows the reality of how important that is.


/

 

[5thKingdom]

In regards to the “last days saints”. That would be the generation of the apostles,

So the Apostles were the Last Saints on earth?
LOL


Everything AFTER the Cross is considered the "last days"...
However we KNOW the Great Commission has been going on for 2000 years... so that is not the "Time-of-the-End" [Dan 12]
There is a DIFFERENCE between the Great Commission of the THIRD BEAST and the Great Tribulation of the FOURTH BEAST.
If you cannot discern that difference then you cannot find the meaning of MANY Bible passages.


Your PROBLEM is you are arguing the "Time-of-the-End" is BEFORE the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved)
during the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" when the text is talking about the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]


You are CONFLATING two (2) separate and distinct "Beasts/Kingdoms".


/

 

[5thKingdom]

Its very simple, Jesus said when his audience would see the things of the olivet discourse,

No, you are ADDING that to the text.
Jesus was talking about events that would happen 2000 years AFTER the discourse.
So you THEORY is nonsensical.


You must remember that the "Body of Christ" is ONE BODY.
When Jesus talked about "ye shall see" events happening 2000 year AFTER He spoke
we can know absolutely He was NOT saying Saints in 50AD would see the "signs" (events)
happening immediately before He Returned.


Your logic is nonsensical
and contradicting the PROMISE the Saints "shall see ALL these things"... the fulfillment of ALL Great Tribulation prophecies.
You assume WAY too much and you do not HARMONIZE your theories with ALL RELATED passages.


Listen... I do not want to go over this again-and-again-and-again.
If you want to REFUTE what I say use Scripture.
I do not care about your opinions.


/

 

[claninja]

Yes, there is a lot of "serious scholarship" involved with understanding the FOUR BEASTS/KINGDOMS on earth.


However, the Bible PROMISES the TRUTH about these matters would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" from all the Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" (and preach) the TRUTH during a period named "Time-of-the-End".


This means that EVERY old "interpretation" about the Four "Beasts/Kingdom" MUST BE WRONG
because they were developed during the time when the Bible PROMISES the TRUTH would remain "sealed"


Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the TIME-OF-THE-END.
Many [Last Saints] shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly:
and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise [Last Saints] SHALL UNDERSTAND.


Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the TIME-OF-THE-END:
many [Last Saints] shall run to and fro, and knowledge [of the Truth] SHALL BE INCREASED [to the Last Saints]


Because the TRUTH is now understood (by the Last Saints) we can finally understand WHAT
the Four "Beasts/Kingdoms" represent. This is NEW INFORMATION which has been submitted
to over 200 of theologians in the best Seminaries in America and over 200 pastors teaching in some
of the most conservative and traditional (Reformed) congregations. And NONE of them were able to find
even ONE VERSE from the Bible to contradict this teaching (and many others)
AND history (reality) only confirms this "understanding".


The four "Beasts/Kingdoms" which make-up the History of Man include:

(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


Notice that JESUS specifically NAMED 3 of these "Beasts" as being a "Kingdom of Heaven".
Now why in the world would anyone REJECT what Jesus specifically NAMED?


The church has always understood the first THREE "Beasts/Kingdoms"... and history confirms them.
However the church NEVER understood the FOURTH Beast is NOT part of the Christian Great Commission
BEFORE all the Saints are saved. Instead, it is a separate and distinct BEAST which arises AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that fact.


Dan 7:7
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a FOURTH BEAST, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly;
and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it:
and it was diverse [different] from all the [other three] Beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.



/

Interesting, please do share your resources on any specific scholars that teach this 3rd and 4th kingdom theology you espouse.
,

(1) First, this parable is also a prophecy.


(2) Secondly, I have already SHOWN you how the people in the prophecy are NOT the people
living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved) they are people
living in the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] AFTER the Last Saint is saved.


I will RE-POST the information I ALREADY GAVE YOU... in Post #269
please read it carefully and, if you do not agree then provide SCRIPTURE to support you opinion.
The Bottom Line is the CONTEXT of the parable/prophecy is AFTER the Lord Returns "having RECEIVED the Kingdom"...
the event happens AFTER the Lord's Return.


My original Post #269...
I HATE having to repeat myself:


This is a good example of when people try to understand the MEANING of Scripture
before they discern the CONTEXT of a passage.


The comments above assumes the passage addresses Saints living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission.
In fact, the passage is directed to Saints living in the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


Notice the CONTEXT of the passage


Luke 19:11-15
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem,
and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. [the Third Kingdom Saints]
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, [Jesus ascension] and to return.
And he called his ten servants [shown as Ten "Virgins" of the Fourth Kingdom in Mat 25], and delivered them ten pounds,
and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens [the unsaved "tares" in the Ten Virgins] hated him, and sent a message after him,
saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom,
then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know
how much every man had gained by trading.


Do you SEE THAT?


The CONTEXT of the rest of this passage is on the Saints of the Fourth Kingdom AFTER he "having RECEIVED the Kingdom".
The CONTEXT is not on Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom... it's on the Saints of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.
Therefore, any attempt to relate this passage to Saints of the (3rd) Great Commission BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed"
[Rev 7:1-3] is completely wrong because the passage relates to Saints of the in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom
AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed".


This is like CONFLATING the (2nd) Jewish "Beast/Kingdom" with the (3rd) Christian "Beast/Kingdom"


We cannot HOPE to find the Biblical MEANING of a passage when we cannot discern the CONTEXT of that passage...
does it relate to Saints in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" or does it relate
to Saints in the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"?


Understanding the CONTEXT of a Scripture really is Christian Theology 101.
I hope this example shows the reality of how important that is.


/

In the parable of the nobleman going to a far away country, the very same people that reject the king, are they very ones He punishes at his return. No way around that.

No, you are ADDING that to the text.

Please demonstrate which specific text I added to and where. Not following you here.

When Jesus talked about "ye shall see" events happening 2000 year AFTER He spoke
we can know absolutely He was NOT saying Saints in 50AD would see the "signs" (events)
happening immediately before He Returned.


Your logic is nonsensical
and contradicting the PROMISE the Saints "shall see ALL these things"... the fulfillment of ALL Great Tribulation prophecies.
You assume WAY too much and you do not HARMONIZE your theories with ALL RELATED passages.


Listen... I do not want to go over this again-and-again-and-again.
If you want to REFUTE what I say use Scripture.
I do not care about your opinions.

Requiring the audience to always be the entire church throughout all ages is terrible hermeneutics, as it throws out audience relevance. So we will disagree here.

Every time I post scripture you don’t actually address it and go off on some other tangent about how I don’t understand the third and fourth kingdom theology you espouse. You’re right, I don’t understand, as I’ve never heard of it, nor read any serious scholarship that teaches on this. Is this something you made up?

Here the are the passages I’ve already posted. Curious if you will address the questions or just go off on some other tangent.

During what earthly, gentile kingdom, did Christ say the following?

“1Then Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God arrive with power.”

During what earthly, gentile kingdom did the author of Hebrews say this?

Hebrews 12:28 28Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe.

Hebrews 10:37For,“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;


During what earthly, gentile kingdom did Paul say this?

Colossians 1:13He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son

1 Corinthians 10:11 11Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come

During what earthly, gentile kingdom, did peter say this?

1 peter 4:7 7The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

Acts 2:16-17 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: 17“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,


During what earthly, gentile kingdom did John say this:

1 john 2:18 18Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

During what earthly, gentile kingdom did James say this


James 5:8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9

 

[5thKingdom]

In the parable of the nobleman going to a far away country, the very same people that reject the king, are they very ones He punishes at his return. No way around that.

you miss THE POINT


The PEOPLE in the parable/prophecy are the people of the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom
AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved) and NOT the people in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom
BEFORE the Last Saint has been "sealed". [Rev 7:1-3]


NOW... I have already shown this to you. Please pay attention this time.


This establishes the CONTEXT of the passage (is it Third Beast of Fourth Beast)
NOTICE Jesus returned "having RECEIVED the Kingdom".


The people in the parable/prophecy are the people living on earth when the Lord Returns
These are NOT people in the Christian Great Commission BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed'
these are people in the Great Tribulation Kingdom AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"


BEFORE you do anything else DEAL with the fact that Jesus RETURNED in the prophecy...
THAT is the Context of the prophecy.


Deal with the CONTEXT of the prophecy ... AFTER HE RETURNED.
You must read the text carefully


Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having RECEIVED the kingdom,
then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money,
that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.



/

 

[Douggg]

Poster 5thKingdom asserts...

(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]

__________________________________

My response is that there are not multiple Kingdoms of Heaven - only one. Jesus never said that there was a Jewish, nor Christian, nor Great Tribulation, Kingdom of Heaven. What you are asserting is a gross twisting of scripture.