Undecided in eschatology

[5thKingdom]

Since it is obvious to a lot of us that Matthew 19:28 belongs during the era of time Matthew 25:31

Mat 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration
when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Mat 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Both these passage are NOT showing events during the (3rd) Christian Kingdom
and they are NOT showing events during the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom
They are showing events in the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven"
which IMMEDIATELY PRECEDS the Fourth Beast.

See for yourself:

Dan 2:44
And in the days of these [Ten] kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:
and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms,
and it shall stand for ever.


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same [Little] horn made war with the [Last] Saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;
and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


The Bible could not be more clear.
The (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" BEGINS when the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom ENDS.
You cannot hope to find Biblical Truth about the chronology of the History of Mankind
when you INTENTIONALLY IGNORE these passages and you ADD
another Kingdom/Beast to the text.


More than that:
Both 1 Co 15 AND 1 Thess 4 teach the resurrection of the dead and the Last Saints being "changed"
happen when "the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout" at the "last Trump".
The Saints (dead and living) meet the Lord in the Air...
"and so shall we ever be with the Lord"


Why do you ignore this reality?
Because you MUST in order to ADD another "Beast" to the History of Man.
You are ADDING to the Bible.



1Th 4:15-17
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we [Last Saints] which are alive
and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


1Co 15:50-53
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


It is a terrible burden to try to show ANOTHER BEAST after the Saints are resurrected and changed at the last Trump...
After we meet the Lord in the air. What follows that event is the Final Judgment.
Not another "Beast" or another TWO "Beasts"
You ADD that to Scripture.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

And I will never believe Christians are co reigning/ruling at this point -far from it. And spreading the gospel is not ruling. Many are being turned off of Christianity right now. ( believing good is evil/evil is good so to speak) If anything we are going backwards. Reigning speaks of a higher purpose/position and that's not happening. Reign means to rule. And we can't change that definition into meaning something else to suit our beliefs.

That is because you do not understand the CONTEXT of the Saints "living and reigning with Christ".

The CONTEXT is the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
The CONTEXT is that Satan cannot prevent all of "His sheep" from being found and saved/

The context is NOT that we experience some "Golden Era" of Christianity RULING the world..
you ADDED that part from your immagination.

Again... understand the A-Millennial doctrine is the "traditional" doctrine of the early church.
The heresy of there being MORE than Four Beasts on earth is never taught in the Bible.

You would be well to DISCERN the meaning of "Beast" and "Image" and "Mark"
before you ADD what is not found in Scripture. For you are not teaching there are MORE
than Four Beasts on earth... and that is NEVER found in Scripture.

You cannot hope to offer an "informed opinion" on the History of Man
when you cannot DISCERN the meaning of the words you use...
like "Beast" and "Image" and "Mark".

And you cannot hope to offer an "informed opinion"
on what happens AFTER the Third Beast and AFTER the fourth Beast
until you can DISCERN what those "Beasts" represent.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

JulieB67 said:
It doesn't make sense to me that he would come with his angels, then he will sit upon the throne of glory and then immediately hand it over to our Father?

Exactly! And to add to that, it doesn't make sense, that the very same day He returns, those that are promised to sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel, they only get to do this for 24 hours or less. How can anyone possibly find that reasonable?

First... where does it say they only do this for 24 hours?
Why do you ADD to the Scripture?

Secondly... read the Text.
How do you explain this Scripture.. which happens when Christ Returns?


1Co 15:23-28
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have
put down all rule and all authority and power. [after the Fourth Beast] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. [the Burning Flame - Dan 7:11-12 and the Lake of Fire - Rev 19:20]
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted,
which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself
be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


In order to understand the TIMING of this event you must first understand it is talking about events
immediately AFTER the Fourth Beast is destroyed...

The Bible NEVER teaches there is ANOTHER "Beast" AFTER the Fourth Beast.
the Eternal Kingdom begins after the Fourth Beast ends.

You have no Biblical validation for pretending history continues AFTER the Lord "Returns with a shout"
and the Saints (both resurrected and those who are "changed" meet the Lord in the air.

.

 

[DavidPT]

5thKingdom said:
Clearly the Bible teaches the "Little Horn" and "False Prophet" and "Man of Sin"
happen during the FOURTH BEAST. So this is a critical question to answer.



Ok... The question now becomes:
Was the Fourth Beast in existence WHILE Satan is "bound"
or AFTER he is "loosened" for his "Little Season"

The broader issue is understanding:
Daniel's Fourth Beast = the Revelation Beast = the Great Tribulation = the RULE of the Anti-Christ
DURING Satan's "Little Season".

Would you be so kind as to tell me whether you understand this reality?
Do you understand the Fourth Beast is shown as these other periods?

----

The Chronology of the History of Mankind is very simple. There are Four (4) Beasts/Kingdoms on earth

(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
(5th) ETERNAL "Kingdom of Heaven" [shown in many verses]

The ISSUE you seem to overlook is that Jesus specifically NAMED
each of these periods as a separate "Kingdom of Heaven" on earth.
Please look-up the verses I cited. If JESUS specifically called each of
these "Beasts" a "Kingdom of Heaven"... then you must deal with that.

Satan's "binding" must occur during ONE of those Kingdoms/Beasts
and Satan's "Little Season" must occur during ONE of those Kingdoms/Beasts.
ONE of those Kingdoms is the Church Age (3rd Beast) and ONE of them is the
Great Tribulation Kingdom (4th Beast)... which is which?

Or... maybe you could show an alternative chronology for the History of Man?
Please be specific.



I have already shown that fact.
ONE Beast exists WHILE Satan is "bound" (the 3rd Beast)
and ONE Beasts exists AFTER Satan is "bound" (4th Beast)
That is exactly what the text says... it is YOU that wants to ASSUME
Rev 20 only shows ONE Beast (instead of two)

Listen... I understand this is a NEW teaching for you.
The Bible PROMISES the truth about the Fourth Beast would remain
"closed-up" and "sealed" until the Last Saints "shall understand" during
a period NAMED the "Time-of-the-End" (also shown as the "Season and Time")

The issue is not whether this information is NEW...
the issue is WHAT is the 3rd Beast and WHAT is the 4th Beast.

Here is something you MUST understand:
There was a "Beast" and an "Image" and a "Mark" during the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom
There was a "Beast" and an "Image" and a "Mark" during the (3rd) Christian Kingdom
There was a "Beast" and an "Image" and a "Mark" during the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom

HOWEVER... THE ANTI-CHRIST (LITTLE HORN, FALSE PROPHET, MAN OF SIN)
ONLY EXISTS DURING THE FOURTH BEAST

(1) Revelation 20 DOES NOT say an Anti-Christ exists... only the "Beast/Image/Mark"
(2) The PEOPLE in Rev 20... the PEOPLE in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom who did not take the "mark"
are also shown in the passage below. And this passage gives us a TIME STAMP... it occurs BEFORE
Satan is "loosened" during his "Little Season"... see verse 11


So, here we see the PEOPLE in Rev 20 are the SAME PEOPLE in Rev 6...
they both existed WHILE Satan was "bound" in the Pit...
during the (3rd) Christian Kingdom

AND they both must WAIT for Satan's "Little Season" (after being released)
before they are "avenged".

Rev 6:9-11
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them [Christian Saints]
that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice,
saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a LITLE SEASON,
until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. [during the FOURTH Beast]


This is called "harmony of Scriptue"

In Rev 20 AND Rev 6 we see the PEOPLE existing in the (3rd) Christian Beast...
the period WHILE Satan is "bound"... the period BEFORE Satan's "Little Season"
This PROVES my chronology and DISPROVES yours.
Rev 20 and Rev 6 show the SAME PEOPLE.





Except.. the people in Rev 20 exist BEFORE Satan is released for his "Little Season" (the Fourth Beast)
There is NOTHING in Rev 20 to imply it was NOT the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
There is only your ASSUMPTION they are from the Fourth Beast because
they did not take the "mark"...

However... you cannot DEFINE the meaning of the "Image" or the "Mark" (I assume you can define the "Beast")
Your inability to DISCERN the definition of those words prevents you from offering an "informed opinion" on the matter.

WHEN you understand that EACH Kingdom had a "Beast/Image/mark" (although ONLY the Fourth Beast had THE Anti-Christ)...
when you understand THAT then you will "see" the chronology of the Four Beasts and the fact that
those in Rev 20 (AND Rev 6) represents the Church Saints BEFORE Satan's "Little Season"

OTHERWISE you must teach the people in Rev 6 are ALSO part of the Fourth Beast..
and that contradicts the fact they must WAIT for the "Little Season" to be completed
before they are "avenged".

You see... I am showing you "harmony of Scripture"
but the ONLY thing preventing you from seeing truth is your ASSUMPTION
that ONLY the Fourth Beast has an "Image/Mark"... that is an incorrect ASSUMPTION
which is proven incorrect AS SOON as you can DEFINE the meaning of "Image/Mark".

Listen... I used to think Rev 20 was showing the Great Tribulation Kingdom
until I was able to understand the MEANING of "Beast/Image/Mark"...
until I understood it happens WHILE Satan is "bound".





Yes, Rev 13 is ONLY talking about the Revelation Beast.
So that does not effect the reality of Rev 20 talking about BOTH
the Third Beast (Christian Age) and the Fourth Beast (Great Tribulation Age)

Now... if you want to discuss Rev 13... I can show you things you have not understood
about the Fourth Beast consisting of TWO woes and TWO trumpets and TWO "head/kings"
and TWO "Beasts".... one during the First Woe (the 7th head/king) and another during the Second Woe
(the 8th "head/king".

But, if we are going do discuss Rev 13
let's focus on that separately.


Jim

One problem I'm having with you in particular, the fact you are submitting numerous things throughout some of your posts that you and I would basically be on the same page about, except it is too tedious for me(I'm not a fast typer for one and that I basically hate typing to begin with), to try and address every point you are making. IOW, I'm unable to keep up. But that is not your fault, though. For some ppl, typing and then expressing their thoughts in typing, apparently comes natural to them, but not to me, though.

Take post #99 that you made, for example. The portion starting with----The "Kingdom" which the Anti-Christ "obtains with flatteries" [Dan 11]---Through---The DURATION of the Fourth Beast is shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (42 mos)---it appears to me that you and I are basically on the same page regarding all of that. Unlike some others, I never allowed past Commentators on the web to cloud my thinking involving some of Daniel 8 and Daniel 11 in particular. I do not agree any of those accounts are involving what A4E did during his days.

IOW, none of those things are involving a literal temple in Jerusalem to begin with, nor a literal temple anywhere for that matter. Certainly nothing in Daniel 8 is. Some interpreters are ignoring time markers in those accounts, such as---for at the time of the end shall be the vision((Daniel 8:17)---for at the time appointed the end shall be(Daniel 8:19)---And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full(Daniel 8:23, where I tend to see that being connected with the falling away(apostacy)(2 Thessalonians 2:3) )---wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days(Daniel 8:26)---these time markers.

And then the most obvious time marker of all, which undeniably proves the little horn isn't meaning A4E in Daniel 8---he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes(obviously meaning Christ) ; but he shall be broken without hand(Daniel 8:25)

 

[5thKingdom]

One problem I'm having with you in particular, the fact you are submitting numerous things throughout some of your posts that you and I would basically be on the same page about, except it is too tedious for me(I'm not a fast typer for one and that I basically hate typing to begin with), to try and address every point you are making. IOW, I'm unable to keep up. But that is not your fault, though. For some ppl, typing and then expressing their thoughts in typing, apparently comes natural to them, but not to me, though.

I understand.
I would prefer to focus on narrow subjects but that seems to not be possible
when people (including myself) post about broad subjects.
I do appreciate your patience.

Take post #99 that you made, for example. The portion starting with----The "Kingdom" which the Anti-Christ "obtains with flatteries" [Dan 11]---Through---

Yes, the "Kingdom" which the Little Horn "obtains with flatteries"
represents the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.

I will show you a mystery.

The REASON the Last Saints "give their Kingdom to the Beast" [Rev 17:17]
is the Little Horn preaches a Gospel that seems to be the Gospel of the Bible
(basically a Reformed Gospel) BUT he does so much more... he teaches many
doctrines NOT understood during the Church Age. He understands many
"dark sentences". That is how the Last Saints are tricked into following.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The target of Satan and his Anti-Christ during the Fourth Beast is the Last Saints.
This reality is shown throughout the Biblical teaching about the Fourth Beast.


Dan 8:23-25
And in the latter time of their [3rd Christian] Kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full,
a king of fierce countenance [the Little Horn or False Prophet or Man of Sin], and understanding dark sentences,
shall stand up. [rule] And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully,
and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also
he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many:
he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. [at the end of the 4th Beast]


HERE is the transition of the Last "wheat and tares" FROM the (3rd) Christian Kingdom
INTO the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom


Mat 25:1-2
THEN shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto [look like] TEN VIRGINS,
which took their lamps [their Gospels], and WENT FORTH [from the 3rd Kingdom, into the 4th Kingdom]
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved wheat], and five were foolish [unsaved tares].


The "THEN" in Matthew 25:1 is NOT the start of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom – or (3rd) Christian Kingdom
(at Pentecost). Instead, it's the start of Daniel's Fourth (Great Tribulation) "Kingdom of Heaven".
It's the start of Satan’s “Little Season”. It’s the rising of the 7-Headed Revelation Beast.
It begins the reign of the Anti-Christ for 3.5 “times/days/years/watches of the night”.


The “THEN” in Matthew 25:1 is when all of the Last Saints “went forth” with the Beast.
Before we can understand when, in history, the “THEN” occurs… we must first be able to discern
where the Last Saints “went forth” from (3rd Kingdom), and where they “went forth” into (4th Kingdom).
We must be able to discern the context of the passage, as it relates to Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven”.


However, only the Last Saints are able understand the context of there being four “Kingdoms/Beasts” upon the earth.


The churches thought “Time-of-the-End” passages applied to their (3rd) Christian Kingdom,
just as Temples thought “Time-of-the-End” passages applied to their (2nd) Jewish Kingdom.
However, the Bible promised the truth about the “Time-of-the-End” would remain “closed-up”
and “sealed” to all the Saints – until the Last Saints “shall understand”.

The DURATION of the Fourth Beast is shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (42 mos)---it appears to me that you and I are basically on the same page regarding all of that. Unlike some others, I never allowed past Commentators on the web to cloud my thinking involving some of Daniel 8 and Daniel 11 in particular. I do not agree any of those accounts are involving what A4E did during his days.

The Last Kingdom before the Lord's Return - consisting of "Ten Virgins" and "Ten Kings" and "Ten Horns",
these same people are shown in other passages (by many different names) and each passage must be harmonized to have Truth.
Below is a (partial) list of Biblical names given – to represent the people living during Daniel's Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven".


The "Kingdom" which the Anti-Christ "obtains with flatteries" [Dan 11]

The "Mighty and Holy People" who are "destroyed" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]

The "Sanctuary and Host" that are "trodden under foot" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]

The "Holy City" which the Anti-Christ "treads under foot" for 42 months/3.5 years [Rev 11]

The "Kings" that are "given into his hand" (the Anti-Christ's hand) for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7]

The "Holy People" whose "power is scattered" by the Anti-Christ for 3.5 "times" [Dan 12]

The "Woman" which is hidden from the face of the "serpent" for 3.5 "times" [Rev 12]

The "Witnesses" which are "overcome" and "killed" by Satan for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11]

The "Kingdom" which is "overflown" and "broken" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 11]

The "Host and the Stars" that are "cast down" by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]



The DURATION of the Fourth Beast is shown as
3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 years (42 mos) and 3.5 "watches of the night"



While the people alive during Daniel's Fourth Kingdom are shown [Mat 25] as the "Ten Virgins" that "went forth"
into the 4th Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"... and they are shown [Dan 7] as the "Ten Kings" and "Ten Horns"
that were "given into the hand" of the Anti-Christ... and they are shown [Rev 17] as the "Ten Kings" and the "Ten Horns"
that "agreed to give their Kingdom to the Beast", the Bible contains (literally) DOZENS of other passages that talk about
these same people, and every one of the passages must be harmonized before we can pretend to have more than partial-truth.


.

 

[Zao is life]

In my previous post I explained why I believe that the history of A4E makes A4E the biblical type of the man of sin, and I explained why I believe that Daniel Chapter 12 points both to the AOD set up by A4E in his day, and forward, to the time of the man of sin, and I showed why I believe that Jesus' Revelation in Revelation 10 complements Daniel's in Daniel 12. This has been your only response:

I have said that Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10 teaches the Biblical Truth of the Fourth Beast
remained "closed-up" and "sealed" until the Last Saints "shall understand" during the "Time-of-the-End"
Anyone that disagrees with Dan 12 is REJECTING Scripture.

You are basically saying again that anyone who disagrees with you in your above interpretation of Daniel 12 and the 4th beast is rejecting scripture. You have not given any proof from scripture at all that what you say carries any validity.

If you want me to "abandon" some doctrine
all you need to do is provide ONE VERSE that contradicts that doctrine.
I am always GLAD to be corrected FROM SCRIPTURE (but not from someone's "feelings")

With respect, that's not true. If they disagree with the interpretations and the claims you are making regarding anything you say, you simply dismiss any argument and scriptures given in support of those arguments as "rejecting scripture".

However...
Remember the Bible PROMISES the Last Saints "shall understand"
about the Fourth Beast during the "Time-of-the-End"
This is what the Bible PROMISES
And this must happen.

The Bible does not say that the last saints shall understand about the 4th beast. The 4th beast is not mentioned in the scriptures you have quoted. You have added that, without any scriptural support:

Daniel 12
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Where is the 4th beast in the above statement?

Do you ACCEPT or REJECT what the Bible PROMISES about NEW INFORMATION in Dan 12?

It doesn't say "new information". That's your addition to what is written, after adding your own interpretation of it. It says simply that none of the wicked will understand (what is happening around them), but the wise will understand.

Note: God did not inspire the prophet Daniel to add the interpretation you are claiming. Nor did Jesus add it in Revelation 10. Please provide supporting scriptures.

The reason why you have provided no supporting scripture regarding what you have been saying about the 4th beast is because there is none. The added meaning of what has been written is in your own mind.

You have also added a meaning to Revelation 10:7: "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets."

The 7th trumpet has not begun to sound yet. And ALL the events of the 6th trumpet, 6th seal and 6th vial (6 6 6) will happen before the sealed mystery becomes known.

You are in effect claiming to be a prophet, providing "new information" that contradicts what is written, and falsely claiming that whoever disagrees with you "is rejecting scripture", yet you provide no supporting scriptures that might validate what you claim.

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
I have said that Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10 teaches the Biblical Truth of the Fourth Beast
remained "closed-up" and "sealed" until the Last Saints "shall understand" during the "Time-of-the-End"
Anyone that disagrees with Dan 12 is REJECTING Scripture.

You are basically saying again that anyone who disagrees with you in your above interpretation of Daniel 12 and the 4th beast is rejecting scripture. You have not given any proof from scripture at all that what you say carries any validity.

No.. that is not what I said at all.
The BIBLE (not me) says the Truth about the Fourth Beast would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" to all (Jewish and Christian) Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" during a period specifically NAMED as the "Time-of-the-End"...
[Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]


Why do you insist on pretending that is ME saying this... it is not me... it is the BIBLE.
When you reject Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10 you are not REJECTING my word, you are REJECTING the WORD OF GOD.


Now, you don't have to LIKE what the Bible says, but that does not make ME responsible for you REJECTING Scripture.
You did not even TRY to offer an alternative understanding - because the text is clear enough - you just pretend
it's ME that wrote the passages. That is so sad.

With respect, that's not true. If they disagree with the interpretations and the claims you are making regarding anything you say, you simply dismiss any argument and scriptures given in support of those arguments as "rejecting scripture".

No... they (and you) are not disagreeing with my "interpretation"...
if that was the case they (and you) would offer a DIFFERENT understanding... but they (and you) do not.
Instead, they (and you) INTENTIONALLY IGNORE the text and pretend that it's ME who wrote the passages...
this way they (and you) can pretend you are REJECTING my words instead of REJECTING the Word of God.

The Bible does not say that the last saints shall understand about the 4th beast. The 4th beast is not mentioned in the scriptures you have quoted. You have added that, without any scriptural support:

LOL

Who "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End"....
Saints living 500 years before? Saints living 250 years before?
Your argument make ZERO sense because you pretend there are NOT Last Saints...
when 1 Thess 4 and 1 Co 15 makes it clear the Last Saints are living on earth when the Lord Returns
and we are "changed in a moment, in the twinking of an eye"

No sir...
There are Last Saints on earth and Daniel clearly teaches the Last Saints "shall understand"
Biblical mysteries about the Fourth Beast during a time called the "Time-of-the-End".
I am sorry that destroys your "gospel".

I do not see you offering a different "interpretation" of Daniel's words (because you cannot)
I do not see you REFUTING anything I said from Scripture... you only DENY my words and pretend
that Daniel means something else (who know what because you cannot say)

Daniel 12
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Where is the 4th beast in the above statement?

Sir... Daniel's prophecies are about the FOURTH BEAST being RULED by the Little Horn.
I cannot believe you do not understand that most basic fact.
You actually DENY my words without even knowing
anything about Daniel's Fourth Beast


Dan 7:7
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a FOURTH BEAST, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly;
and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it:
and it was diverse from all the [THREE] beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.


Dan 7:23
Thus he said, The FOURTH BEAST shall be the FOURTH KINGDOM UPON EARTH,
which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.


Dan 7:24
And the ten horns out of this [FOURTH] Kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them;
and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the [LAST] saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand
until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;
and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


If you do NOT understand Daniel was talking about the FOURTH BEAST then you are neither qualified or capable
of offering an "informed opinion" on the matter. MUCH LESS desputing or denying what the Bible teaches about the FOURTH BEAST

It doesn't say "new information". That's your addition to what is written, after adding your own interpretation of it. It says simply that none of the wicked will understand (what is happening around them), but the wise will understand.

First... if the information remained "closed-up" and "sealed" to all Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand"
that CERTAINLY does mean it's NEW INFORMATION. Besides, that is what the TEXT says:


Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the TIME-OF-THE-END;
many [LAST SAINTS] shall run to and fro, and knowledge [ABOUT THE GOSPEL] shall be increased. [TO THE LAST SAINTS]

Do not even pretend the "knowledge" that is increased to the Last Saints is some SECULAR knowlege...
that does not even pass the "giggle test"

Note: God did not inspire the prophet Daniel to add the interpretation you are claiming. Nor did Jesus add it in Revelation 10. Please provide supporting scriptures.

God inspired Daniel to write all his prophecies about the FOURTH BEAST
and God inspired Daniel to record the Truth would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" to all Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End"

Jesus also made PROMISES about the Last Saints...
but how can you handle those truths when you cannot handle Daniel 12?

The reason why you have provided no supporting scripture regarding what you have been saying about the 4th beast is because there is none. The added meaning of what has been written is in your own mind.

Sir, first, I have provided TONS of information.
Why do you pretend otherwise?

Secondly the Bible is FULL of information about Daniel's Fourth Beast...
since it's shown as (1) the Revelation Beast and (2) the Great Tribulation "Kingdom"
and (3) the RULE of the Anti-Christ (Little Horn, False Prophet, Man of Sin)
during (4) Satan's "Little Season" after being release from the Pit.

These are basic and fundamental doctrines sir...
why is it "news" to you?

You are in effect claiming to be a prophet, providing "new information" that contradicts what is written, and falsely claiming that whoever disagrees with you "is rejecting scripture", yet you provide no supporting scriptures that might validate what you claim.

I admit to being one of the Last Saints that "shall understand" exactly as the Bible PROMISED.
And I have provided TONS of passages showing that I "understand" about Daniel's Fourth Beast,
and so much more.

However, you have not provided ONE VERSE from the Bible that REFUTES a word I said.
Instead you simply DENY my words and pretend that is the same as REFUTING them... it's not the same.
Your denials mean LESS than nothing unless/until you offer SCRIPTURE to contradict my doctrines... that how it works.


.

 

[Douggg]

IOW, none of those things are involving a literal temple in Jerusalem to begin with, nor a literal temple anywhere for that matter. Certainly nothing in Daniel 8

The little horn stops the daily sacrifice. There is no daily sacrifice permitted in the absence of a temple - which why the Jews don't do the daily sacrifice. So there has to be a temple built.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

 

[Zao is life]

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the TIME-OF-THE-END;
many [LAST SAINTS] shall run to and fro, and knowledge [ABOUT THE GOSPEL] shall be increased. [TO THE LAST SAINTS]​

You added the words (last saints) to the word "many", then you added the words (about the gospel) to the word "knowledge", then you added the words (to the last saints) to the words "shall be increased".

Three additions to just one verse in scripture, produced by who-knows-whose authority to add to scripture in order to change its meaning?

The four beasts/kingdoms of Daniel

(I) Lion: Nebuchadnezzar's Babyloniian kingdom.
(II) Bear: Persian kingdom.
(III) Leopard: Greek kingdom

The leopard kingdom divided into four parts after the death of Alexander the Great. Out of one of these four rose:

(IV-A) Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and the history of what took place when A4E rose to power is going to happen again at the close of this age, when the antitype of A4E (the man of sin) defiles the tabernacle of God (the church, the body of Christ) by exalting himself and claiming to be God, and the apostasy occurs as a result of the great tribulation he will bring upon the saints.

History surrounding God's elect and the biblical prophecy associated with it is full of type/antitypes. The 4th beast that relates to A4E, to his defilement of the temple, to his war against the saints of the day, and his defeat at the hands of the Maccabees, also relates (primarily) to same beast spoken of in Revelation 13 that will be destroyed by Christ.

Have you never noticed that Revelation 13:2 is telling us about a kingdom whose power will be a combination of the first three kingdoms plus the 4th one? This kingdom - the 8th king with whom the 10 kings of the 7th kingdom of Revelation 17 will be ruling for one hour and to whom they will hand over their power and authority - is kingdom (IV- B), i.e the antitype of A4E. i.e the 2nd of the two kingdoms (the kingdom of A4E and the final kingdom) mentioned by Daniel in Daniel 12.

Instead of understanding this about the 4th beast of Daniel, you have created a scenario in your own mind whereby "the 4th beast of Daniel = the sealed mystery of Daniel and of the Revelation".

But you of necessity have to add to scripture in order for your thesis to work, as in your three additions to the one verse above.

But your theory negates what Jesus revealed: that only when the 7th trumpet has begun to sound will the mystery of God which He declared to the prophets, be finished. Until then, whatever the seven thunders uttered in Revelation 10, and whatever Daniel was told to seal in Daniel 12, remains sealed.

When it is made known, it will be made known to all, and it has not been given to a certain select few (or maybe just one who is associating this sealed mystery with the 4th beast/kingdom, as though "that must be it").​

 

[JulieB67]

(1) First, Christ doe NOT tell us the first resurrection is after His Return... you ADDED that to the text.

I stated that Christ tells us what "is"the first resurrection after this return.

The beast described here,

Revelation 19:19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a like of fire burning with brimstone."

Is the very same beast described here,

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

When Christ returns the beast and FP are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

So we already know 20:4 is after his return. I didn't add that, the scriptures declare it.

Revelation is not in chronological order. Some of it is a lay out. Revelation 12 covers past and future but with the descriptions of the beast, the mark and image., we know 20 follows 19.


He then goes on and describes the first resurrection "after" his return.


Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Christ's words describing the first resurrection after his coming. We know Christ is the first resurrection but he definitely separates the resurrection of the people in two parts after his coming. Verse 5 declares it.

 

[DavidPT]

The little horn stops the daily sacrifice. There is no daily sacrifice permitted in the absence of a temple - which why the Jews don't do the daily sacrifice. So there has to be a temple built.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

I guess it all depends on how one might look at it over all. What does Jesus' one time only sacrifice accomplish? Does it not accomplish covering one on a daily basis? Doesn't that technically add up to a daily sacrifice, but not that Christ has to literally sacrifice Himself on a daily basis in order to via His one time sacrifice, cover one on a daily basis. How can any of this even be involving sacrifices having to do with animals? Especially since what you brought up in Daniel 8 here, though I realize some interpreters disagree, is involving events in the final days of this present age?

We have to look at some of these things spiritually not literally. A literal temple in the 21st century, where unbelieving Jews are once again sacrificing animals, makes zero sense. And what makes even less sense, assuming that this is true, would be that the AC is the one that puts a stop to the sacrificing. Which then would be a good thing, except how could it be a good thing if the most evil entity on the planet is the one causing the sacrifices to cease? How does that help the AC? Wouldn't he be doing unbelieving Jews a favor since they shouldn't be sacrificing animals in a rebuilt temple to begin with, the fact Christ already made that unnecessary by the sacrificing of Himself 2000 years ago?

 

[Douggg]

A literal temple in the 21st century, where unbelieving Jews are once again sacrificing animals, makes zero sense.

They are unbelievers that Jesus is the messiah. They are not unbelievers regarding the temple, the daily sacrifice, and the hope of the son of David messiah.

The Antichrist will initially be perceived by the Jews to be their long awaited messiah. The Antichrist himself, acting in that role, will be instrumental in the restarting of the daily sacrifice in the temple to be build by the Jews.

 

[keras]

I guess it all depends on how one might look at it over all. What does Jesus' one time only sacrifice accomplish? Does it not accomplish covering one on a daily basis? Doesn't that technically add up to a daily sacrifice, but not that Christ has to literally sacrifice Himself on a daily basis in order to via His one time sacrifice, cover one on a daily basis. How can any of this even be involving sacrifices having to do with animals? Especially since what you brought up in Daniel 8 here, though I realize some interpreters disagree, is involving events in the final days of this present age?

We have to look at some of these things spiritually not literally. A literal temple in the 21st century, where unbelieving Jews are once again sacrificing animals, makes zero sense. And what makes even less sense, assuming that this is true, would be that the AC is the one that puts a stop to the sacrificing. Which then would be a good thing, except how could it be a good thing if the most evil entity on the planet is the one causing the sacrifices to cease? How does that help the AC? Wouldn't he be doing unbelieving Jews a favor since they shouldn't be sacrificing animals in a rebuilt temple to begin with, the fact Christ already made that unnecessary by the sacrificing of Himself 2000 years ago?

Many scripture Prophesies clearly inform us about a new Temple that will be built in Jerusalem during the end times and will be the place King Jesus will reign the world from in the Millennium. These are undeniable Bible statements.

How one looks at the Bible overall; is far too often colored by preconceived notions. We must take care to not be deceived! Matthew 24:4

 

[DavidPT]

They are unbelievers that Jesus is the messiah. They are not unbelievers regarding the temple, the daily sacrifice, and the hope of the son of David messiah.

The Antichrist will initially be perceived by the Jews to be their long awaited messiah. The Antichrist himself, acting in that role, will be instrumental in the restarting of the daily sacrifice in the temple to be build by the Jews.


View attachment 326254

Assuming that is the case, what is the logic in him needing to end the sacrifices 3.5 years later? That helps the AC accomplish excactly what goal? That it was a bad idea to begin with, this resuming of animal sacrificing, so the AC then has a change of heart and then causes the sacrifices to cease? Therefore, this act by the AC then being an act pleasing to God since the AC caused a bad idea to go away altogether, this animal sacrificing in a rebuilt temple?

 

[DavidPT]

But your theory negates what Jesus revealed: that only when the 7th trumpet has begun to sound will the mystery of God which He declared to the prophets, be finished. Until then, whatever the seven thunders uttered in Revelation 10, and whatever Daniel was told to seal in Daniel 12, remains sealed.

IMO, the time of the end can be understood in 2 senses. In one sense it means the time that brings about the literal end of things eventually, that this time period is what causes the literal end to eventually occur. And in another sense it is meaning the literal end. A cpl of examples would be the following.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

We have to keep in mind here, the time of the end per verse 9 is not meaning the literal end of this age at this point, the fact it is involving verses 10-12. IOW, it is those verses that cause the time of the end to begin which then leads to the literal end, where I take that to mean verse 12, the fact there are no more days once this 1335th day arrives. Actually, verse 12 and verse 13 are both examples of the literal end of this age, while verse 9 is an example of the time of the end that must begin and be accomplished first, before there can be the literal end of this age.

Daniel 12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?


As to this passage, this part---that it shall be for a time, times, and an half--is involving the time of the end that leads to the literal end of this age. And that this part---all these things shall be finished---is meaning the literal end of this age. It is involving the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Right or wrong, that's how I tend to reason it anyway.

 

[5thKingdom]

You are basically saying again that anyone who disagrees with you in your above interpretation of Daniel 12 and the 4th beast is rejecting scripture. You have not given any proof from scripture at all that what you say carries any validity.

No, I am saying that anyone that disagrees with the TEXT of Dan 12 is REJECTING the Word of God.
The text is very clear about WHAT is revealed (mysteries about the Fourth Beast)
and WHEN the truth is revealed (at the "Time-of-the-End")

What Saints are living at the "Time-of-the-End"?
They are the Last Saints.

The Bible does not say that the last saints shall understand about the 4th beast. The 4th beast is not mentioned in the scriptures you have quoted. You have added that, without any scriptural support:

Sir... please tell me WHAT Saints are living at the "Time-of-the-End" and the Return of the Lord?
Do you actually PRETEND those Saints are NOT the Last Saints...
the Saints "changed" at the resurrection?
Your comment is nonsense.

Where is the 4th beast in the above statement?

As I have already shown you (from Dan 7)
Daniel's prophecies are centered on the Fourth Beast.

Why would you make such a nonsensical statement AFTER I already quoted Dan 7
talking about the FOURTH BEAST.

Is it because you REJECTED the Scripture I sent you?
Or is it because you REJECT those Scriptures?


Dan 7:7
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a FOURTH BEAST, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly;
and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it:
and it was diverse from all the [THREE] beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.


Dan 7:23
Thus he said, The FOURTH BEAST shall be the FOURTH KINGDOM UPON EARTH,
which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.


Dan 7:24
And the ten horns out of this [FOURTH] Kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them;
and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the [LAST] saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand
until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;
and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

It doesn't say "new information". That's your addition to what is written,

You continue to REPEAT the same nonsense AFTER I have provided Scripture refuting your theories.
What in the world do you think "knowlege shall be increased" represents?
Knowledge of the Gospel or knowledge of some SECULAR matter?
Such nonsense... repeating the same DENIALS


Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:
many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

[5thKingdom]

IMO, the time of the end can be understood in 2 senses. In one sense it means the time that brings about the literal end of things eventually, that this time period is what causes the literal end to eventually occur. And in another sense it is meaning the literal end.

But tell me...
when is the "Time-of-the-End" and when is the "Season and Time"?
If we cannot discern WHEN those periods occur in the History of Man then
we cannot offer an "informed opinion" on the events of the Last Saints on earth,
because Daniel 12 provides some PROMISES about the "Time-of-the-End"
and the "Season and Time" destroys all previous eschatology.

.

 

[Marilyn C]

Ok... this is how a discussion is SUPPOSED to happen:
I made a statement. You need to show Scripture that refutes my comment
or you have not actually responded at all.

And the statement you made has NOTHING to do with my comment.

I will repost my comments

You could not be more wrong.

Jesus was very clear [Mat 13]
that the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [7 verses] consists of BOTH
(1) saved "wheat/sheep" IN THE CHURCH sown by God and destined to eternal life and
(2) unsaved "tares/goats" IN THE CHURCH sown by Satan and destined to eternal torment.


Mat 13:36-43
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,
Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed
is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children
of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are
the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear,
let him hear.


Now...
If you want to respond to this post
then do not deflect to another issue and
please provide some SCRIPTURE that refutes me
(citing verses that are not related to the subject mean nothing)
.

Hi 5th,

I`m sorry if I wasn`t clearer. Now, you quoted Matthew and the `kingdom/rule of Heaven ` for Christians. However, the Body of Christ was NOT known at that time for the Lord did NOT reveal it till He ascended and started to build His Body and gave the Apostle Paul the revelation.

The Jews knew of God`s rule from heaven through their nation as it was mentioned in the OT. (Dan. 7: 27) but they were never told about us, the Body of Christ or our inheritance in the highest realm of God`s great kingdom. (Rev. 3: 21)

 

[5thKingdom]

Assuming that is the case, what is the logic in him needing to end the sacrifices 3.5 years later? That helps the AC accomplish excactly what goal? That it was a bad idea to begin with, this resuming of animal sacrificing, so the AC then has a change of heart and then causes the sacrifices to cease? Therefore, this act by the AC then being an act pleasing to God since the AC caused a bad idea to go away altogether, this animal sacrificing in a rebuilt temple?

The notion that the "temple" [2Thess] represents a physical building is complete nonsense.
The Jewish Kingdom if FINISHED.


Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The KINGDOM OF GOD shall be TAKEN from you [Jews]
and GIVEN to a [Christian] nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

It is amazing that people think the Jewish Beast/Kingdom
will arise again... the Bible provides ZERO support for such nonsense.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

Hi 5th,

I`m sorry if I wasn`t clearer. Now, you quoted Matthew and the `kingdom/rule of Heaven ` for Christians. However, the Body of Christ was NOT known at that time for the Lord did NOT reveal it till He ascended and started to build His Body and gave the Apostle Paul the revelation.

You are conflating issues.
The point is NOT what was "known at the time"

The Jews knew of God`s rule from heaven through their nation as it was mentioned in the OT. (Dan. 7: 27) but they were never told about us, the Body of Christ or our inheritance in the highest realm of God`s great kingdom. (Rev. 3: 21)

You are correct, the Jews were NEVER MEANT to understand the END of their Kingdom or the subsequent (3rd) Christian Kingdom..
just like the Church was NEVER MEANT to understand the END of their Great Commission or the subsequent FOURTH BEAST.

However, the point is NOT what the Jewish Saints or the Christian Saints understood...
the point is the Bible PROMISES the Last Saints (the Great Tribulation Saints of the Fourth Beast)
"shall understand" Biblical mysteries that had been "closed-up" and "sealed"...
and they understand these mysteries at the "Time-of-the-End" [Dan 12]

Do not be surprised at this reality because the Lord Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see ALL these things"
meaning all the Great Tribulation prophecies He was revealing... the Last Saints "shall see" the historical fulfillment
of Great Tribulation prophecies.... no previous Saint "shall see" the fulfillment of those events.

When you think about it this is logical... the Great Tribulation Saints (the Last Saints) "shall see" and they "shall understand"
the fulfillment of prophecies about the "Time-of-the-End". No previous Saints could.
.