That thread is closed but here’s one claim you made:
- Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?
- Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in. Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance. Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance. Therefore, Glass / Mirror = Perfect = The Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does. 2 Corinthians 3:18also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us. It says: "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (Also see verse 15 in the same chapter). As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.
Answer one: surprisingly, I discovered in my research that highly educated cessationists, such as those in the DTS , Dallas Theological seminary, do not try to use 1 Corinthians 13:8 to argue that spiritual gifts have ended, and here’s why they say that only uneducated cessationists use it:
Some have argued that the particular verb with tongues as the subject is significant. Tongues “will cease” (
pausontai), whereas prophecy and knowledge “will come to an end” (
katargēthēsetai).
The argument is that the middle voice with the verb
pausontai (“will cease”) shows that tongues will cease in and of themselves. . . .
The key feature of this argument is that the gifts will end when “the perfect comes” (
1 Cor. 13:10).
On this view, many of the gifts (such as tongues) end when the New Testament is completed, when the canon of Scripture is completed. At that point some of the spiritual gifts are no longer needed, since in the New Testament we have God’s perfect revelation.
A variant of this view is that the perfect doesn’t refer to the writing of the New Testament but to spiritual maturity. Spiritual gifts are no longer necessary because now that we have the New Testament we have all we need for spiritual maturity.
Schreiner argues that rather than seeing “the perfect” as a reference to
the close of the canon or to
spiritual maturity, Paul clearly was referring to
the second coming of Jesus.
If we look at the context of
1 Corinthians 13:8–12, the coming of “the perfect” brings what is “partial” to an end (13:10). Paul says that now we “know in part, but then I will know fully, as I am fully known” (13:12). Presently, our knowledge is incomplete, and “we see only a reflection as in a mirror,” but then we will see “face to face” (13:12).
It is clear, therefore, that “the perfect” is another way of describing “face to face,” and seeing “face to face” most naturally refers to Christ’s second coming. . . .
The idiom “face to face” in
1 Corinthians 13:12doesn’t suggest something abstract like the New Testament canon or spiritual maturity. Instead, it represents the language of encounter with God, and so naturally refers to the second coming, since we will see Jesus “face to face” when “the perfect comes” (
1 Cor. 13:10).
The arguments for cessationism from
1 Corinthians 13:8–10 aren’t exegetically convincing for a number of reasons.
1. The difference between the two verbs (“will cease” vs. “will come to an end”) puts too much weight on the grammatical difference.
The two different verbs “come to an end” (
katargeō) and “cease” (
pauomai) are used for stylistic variety, and we should not press any distinction between the two verbs. I am not saying that the verbs are absolutely synonymous, but that we shouldn’t read into them a major distinction.
2. It is scarcely evident that Christians are more mature post-canonically.
It isn’t clear . . . that we are more mature than Christians were in the first century. Such a claim is a rather bold assertion, for it could be read to say that we are even more spiritually mature than the apostles. A quick reading of church history and of the current evangelical landscape raises significant doubts about the assertion as well.
3. Paul’s historical location when he wrote 1 Corinthians creates a significant problem with seeing “the perfect” as the completed canon.
Paul believed Jesus would return soon, and history would come to an end. This isn’t to take away from Paul’s authority or accuracy, for nothing he wrote is contradicted by two thousand years of history passing. The point I am making is that it is almost impossible that Paul could have meant by “the perfect” the New Testament canon.
4. It is even more unlikely that the Corinthians would have understood the word “perfect” as referring to the canon.
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that Paul is referring to the New Testament canon. The problem that immediately emerges is that there is no way that the Corinthians would have understood what Paul was talking about! Paul would have had to explain in much more detail than he does here that by “the perfect” he had in mind the completion of the New Testament. Certainly, the Corinthians never imagined or dreamt of a New Testament canon. And why would Paul write about such an idea to them since many—probably most—of them wouldn’t live to see the canon completed, and even if they did live that long, the canon wasn’t compiled together? Indeed, if this is what Paul had in mind, the Corinthians would then know that Jesus could not and would not return for a number of years, and he would only come when the New Testament was finished and accepted as authoritative.
5. The notion that “the perfect” refers to the canon or to spiritual maturity is also ruled out by what Paul says about knowledge.
“When the perfect comes, the partial will come to an end” (
1 Cor. 13:10). Now Paul sees imperfectly and knows partially, but when the perfect arrives he will see “face to face” (
1 Cor. 13:12). Partial knowledge will give way to complete knowledge (
1 Cor. 13:12). If the “perfect” refers to the New Testament canon or to spiritual maturity, we no longer have partial knowledge. Those who have the canon or those who are mature know fully. Indeed, they know more than Paul who confesses that he knows only partially! But any notion that our knowledge is perfect or better than Paul’s is clearly false. Our knowledge continues to be imperfect. We know truly but not comprehensively and exhaustively. We will only know fully when Jesus returns, when we see him face to face.
So, according to Schreiner,
there are other reasons to be a cessationist. But this verse isn’t one of them.
Answer two: here’s what I wrote before I learned that educated cessationists say that 1 Corinthians 13:8 does not prove cessationism, and they never use that text:
Even though Paul told the Corinthians church to stop forbidding tongues, and explained that he wanted them have all the gifts in operation in their church until Jesus returns, and listed all the gifts of the spirit, and explained how to use those gifts during church services, told them to seek spiritual gifts, wished they would all speak in tongues, said he spoke in tongues more than anyone, cessationists try to use 1 Corinthians 13:8-11 as their proof text that spiritual gifts ended when the Bible was completed.
But note that when that which is perfect comes, we then see face to face.
The Bible has no face - it has a cover, a binding, pages, chapters, verses, etc. - but Jesus does.
That which is perfect to come is Jesus, because then we shall see FACE TO FACE - an obvious quote from Paul about Moses seeing God face to face, as a friend talks to a friend:
Exo 33:11And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
And Jacob saw God face to face when He wrestled with Jesus in an OT appearance:
Gen 32:30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Here’s the passage:
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Notice in verse 8, three things end, when that which is perfect comes: prophecy, tongues, and knowledge.
Yet in the last days, knowledge increases, says Daniel the prophet:
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
We are currently in an explosion of the increase in man’s knowledge, to where it’s now doubling every six months.
And prophecy also increases in the last days, as God pours out His spirit:
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Since knowledge and prophecy increases in the last days and end times - and knowledge, prophecy and tongues end at the same time - it’s obvious that tongues and prophecy, which are gifts of the Holy Spirit, are for today, until Jesus returns and they are no longer needed.
That’s why Paul told the Corinthians that he wanted them to have every spiritual gift while they await the coming of Jesus - because then they won’t be needed any longer, and will expire - when that which is perfect - the kingdom of God and its king, Jesus, comes to earth, and we know as we are known, and we see Him face to face.
Far from saying they would end, Paul imparted the GIFT of CHARISMA to the church at Corinth, to have while they awaited the second coming of Jesus.
There’s the expiration date of spiritual gifts: when Jesus returns and they are no longer needed.
1Co 1:6Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1Co 1:7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
The word GIFT there is charisma, where the word charismatic comes from.
