Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It

[Guojing]

Yes. So you are saying James is talking about spiritual illness? Perhaps but that still doesn't change the fact that churches don't heal or have real apostles

My main point can be found here Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Are you distinguishing between signs and miracles? All signs are miracles but not all miracles are signs.

So if your point is that God still perform miracles today, no one is denying that.

What we will argue is that signs, the ones that are seen in the 4 Gospels, and the early part of Acts, are no longer valid today.

Jesus and Paul are our models of Gospel ministry. Jesus healed and cast out demons as part of His earthly ministry. Paul's ministry involved healing and casting out of demons. These were also the signs and wonders that accompanied the preaching of the Apostles.

The argument that sign has ceased is straightforward:

1. Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
2. The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
3. When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-31, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
4. Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)
5. God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).
6. Israel rejected the Holy Spirit by their leaders stoning Stephen (Acts 7)
7. Israel the nation fell and now salvation has been released to the gentiles thru their fall, as God has planned since the foundation of the world (Romans 11:11)

1. I don't have a problem with this.

   [*]Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)

   That is not what Acts 15:12 actually says. It was to testify that the signs and wonders took place to confirm that the Gospel was for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. It was also to show the Gentiles that they could be converted to Christ and become one in the faith along with the Jews. Also, the word "temporary" is not used in conjunction with signs and wonders anywhere in the New Testament. To insert "temporary" and "alert Israel to a change of dispensation" is adding to God's Word, which is a big no no.

   [*]By the time Acts 28 arrived, even the diaspora of Israel has rejected Jesus (Acts 28:28).

   Not true. Many of the diaspora Jews received the Gospel of Christ, so to say that "the diaspora Jews rejected Jesus" is a generalisation. It is more true to say that "many diaspora Jews rejected the Gospel of Christ".

   [*]Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.

   Bunkum. The early church fathers reported instant healing and casting out of demons right through to the 4th Century. In the 11th Century while the Benedictine Monastery at Cassino was being built, an accident caused the death of a stone mason. They brought the body to St Benedict, who prayed over it and the man came back to life. The man was so restored and healed that he went straight back to work. In the 18th Century, 250 verified healings happened during John Wesley's ministry, including one time when his horse Dan went lame and the uneven gait gave Wesley a headache. After a while he stopped, lifted his eyes to heaven and prayed. Immediately the headache went, and so did the horse's lameness. So it was obvious that the horse was not a cessationist and had faith for healing! In the early 20th Century, a Methodist Holiness evangelist, Guy Bevington, had a number of validated healings during his ministry in the Cincinnati area. So, the type of signs and wonders that were evident in Paul's ministry, carried on right through the centuries of church history right to the present day. So I put it to you that you will not find one New Testament Scripture that clearly states that signs and wonders along with the preaching of the Gospel were just temporary and limited to the events before Acts 28.

But praise the Lord, that God still perform miracles today. For someone like Nick Vujicic, however, he may have to be contend to only receive his healing of limbs, after the rapture. (Romans 8:18-25).

The purpose of signs and wonders are to confirm that the Gospel is true and that hearers can have confidence in it. Signs and wonders are not for the self-indulgence of professing Christians, and most of the claims of healing in Christian churches just don't happen, because the signs and wonders are not for Christians, but for the benefit of the unconverted to convince them that Jesus Christ has really risen from the dead, that the Gospel is true, and that they need to repent, believe the Gospel and turn to Christ.

If you don't believe that signs and wonders to accompany the preaching of the Gospel today, as they were needed in the 1st Century, then you are not seeing the rise of the occult and neo-paganism in our societies, and a definitely turning away from acceptance of the Bible as a true record of who God is and what His purpose is for the world. A word-based Gospel, even if the Bible is quoted, would have no power at all with atheists, occult practitioners, and neo-pagans. There needs to be much more and only the Holy Spirit working with the preaching of the Gospel with signs and wonders can achieve anything. That is the way God did it in the 1st century and that is the way He will do it today, if we will allow Him.

 

[Taodeching]

Which is it. Are we weak in faith? Are we unrepentant sinners? Or we didnt sow enough money into some healing ministry?

Weak, the west acts as you have shown. If a miracle happened right in front of many people in the west they would not believe. It is not like that in other places. Many miracles are happening in Africa along with conversions. The west is to cerebral as the Bible says: And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief, also And He wondered at their unbelief.And He was going around the villages teaching.

This has not to do with scam artists but with a genuine lack of belief and extreme skepticism in the west

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Have you noticed James did not say "And the prayer of faith will heal the one who is sick" but rather "And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick"?

Your conclusion "Why would they pray, if not so that God could show His glory in the restoration of health?" is not from this verse, but rather you attempting to read healing into that passage.

My take on the verse is that when prayed for by the church elders, the sick person should not get any sicker, but the tide would turn and the sick person should start to get well. James says "the Lord will raise him up" but doesn't say how long that should take. But then, the elders should be men of faith to be able to pray the prayer of faith in order for the results to happen. Trouble is that many church elders are religious but not of the calibre that may be require to be able to pray the prayer of faith. That is probably why the elders' prayers don't work in many cases and the sick person gets sicker or even ends up dead!

 

[IWalkAlone]

Jesus and Paul are our models of Gospel ministry. Jesus healed and cast out demons as part of His earthly ministry. Paul's ministry involved healing and casting out of demons. These were also the signs and wonders that accompanied the preaching of the Apostles.

1. I don't have a problem with this. That is not what Acts 15:12 actually says. It was to testify that the signs and wonders took place to confirm that the Gospel was for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. It was also to show the Gentiles that they could be converted to Christ and become one in the faith along with the Jews. Also, the word "temporary" is not used in conjunction with signs and wonders anywhere in the New Testament. To insert "temporary" and "alert Israel to a change of dispensation" is adding to God's Word, which is a big no no. Not true. Many of the diaspora Jews received the Gospel of Christ, so to say that "the diaspora Jews rejected Jesus" is a generalisation. It is more true to say that "many diaspora Jews rejected the Gospel of Christ".Bunkum. The early church fathers reported instant healing and casting out of demons right through to the 4th Century. In the 11th Century while the Benedictine Monastery at Cassino was being built, an accident caused the death of a stone mason. They brought the body to St Benedict, who prayed over it and the man came back to life. The man was so restored and healed that he went straight back to work. In the 18th Century, 250 verified healings happened during John Wesley's ministry, including one time when his horse Dan went lame and the uneven gait gave Wesley a headache. After a while he stopped, lifted his eyes to heaven and prayed. Immediately the headache went, and so did the horse's lameness. So it was obvious that the horse was not a cessationist and had faith for healing! In the early 20th Century, a Methodist Holiness evangelist, Guy Bevington, had a number of validated healings during his ministry in the Cincinnati area. So, the type of signs and wonders that were evident in Paul's ministry, carried on right through the centuries of church history right to the present day. So I put it to you that you will not find one New Testament Scripture that clearly states that signs and wonders along with the preaching of the Gospel were just temporary and limited to the events before Acts 28.

The purpose of signs and wonders are to confirm that the Gospel is true and that hearers can have confidence in it. Signs and wonders are not for the self-indulgence of professing Christians, and most of the claims of healing in Christian churches just don't happen, because the signs and wonders are not for Christians, but for the benefit of the unconverted to convince them that Jesus Christ has really risen from the dead, that the Gospel is true, and that they need to repent, believe the Gospel and turn to Christ.

If you don't believe that signs and wonders to accompany the preaching of the Gospel today, as they were needed in the 1st Century, then you are not seeing the rise of the occult and neo-paganism in our societies, and a definitely turning away from acceptance of the Bible as a true record of who God is and what His purpose is for the world. A word-based Gospel, even if the Bible is quoted, would have no power at all with atheists, occult practitioners, and neo-pagans. There needs to be much more and only the Holy Spirit working with the preaching of the Gospel with signs and wonders can achieve anything. That is the way God did it in the 1st century and that is the way He will do it today, if we will allow Him.

I don't trust writings from the 4th century. Only scripture and what I can see.

 

[IWalkAlone]

Weak, the west acts as you have shown. If a miracle happened right in front of many people in the west they would not believe. It is not like that in other places. Many miracles are happening in Africa along with conversions. The west is to cerebral as the Bible says: And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief, also And He wondered at their unbelief.And He was going around the villages teaching.

This has not to do with scam artists but with a genuine lack of belief and extreme skepticism in the west

Or maybe God doesn't want to do miracles. If your faith is so strong believe for the rest of us

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That in the west faith is weak. The west must have everything in evidence and cna not stand a mystery, the west must have an explanation for everything not accepting mysteries. It is not easy to do miracles in this environment

Jesus had the same problem when He went back to His home town where everyone knew Him from childhood. He was just another grown up village kid to them and could not believe that He was their Messiah.

 

[Taodeching]

Or maybe God doesn't want to do miracles. If your faith is so strong believe for the rest of us

See even here your faith shows weakness. It is not about one person's faith but collective faith.

 

[IWalkAlone]

Jesus had the same problem when He went back to His home town where everyone knew Him from childhood. He was just another grown up village kid to them and could not believe that He was their Messiah.

I don't believe in Benny Hinn so I lack faith in God.

 

[IWalkAlone]

See even here your faith shows weakness. It is not about one person's faith but collective faith.

So it must be collective faith? One persons faith isn't enough?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't trust writings from the 4th century. Only scripture and what I can see.

If you trust only the Scripture, then show me a Scripture where Jesus, Peter, John, or Paul clearly said that the signs and wonders were temporary.

I guess you are thinking that you have a better take on these things than the church fathers who are widely respected as being the most reliable commentators of the continuation of the early church. Okay then.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Or maybe God doesn't want to do miracles. If your faith is so strong believe for the rest of us

God will do what He decides according to His plans and purposes. The problem is that many church leaders have little idea of them.

 

[IWalkAlone]

If you trust only the Scripture, then show me a Scripture where Jesus, Peter, John, or Paul clearly said that the signs and wonders were temporary.

I guess you are thinking that you have a better take on these things than the church fathers who are widely respected as being the most reliable commentators of the continuation of the early church. Okay then.

Not at all. I never said they were temporary. I said they don't exist in the church anymore. Where are they? If a true apostle showed up with signs people would follow. But all I see are frauds.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Relating that to the absence of signs and wonders as part of the preaching of the Gospel is a misapplication of what Jesus said to Thomas. The context was about the fact that Jesus had risen from the dead. Thomas needed substantive proof, and Jesus gave it to him. He didn't put Thomas down for his request for proof. He gave him the proof right there and then, and Thomas's reaction was immediate and dramatic. He never doubted Christ again and went on to have a powerful Gospel ministry right through to where modern India is today, and there is a region in India that is predominately Christian and attributed to St Thomas.

But to apply that Scripture as an excuse why we don't see signs and wonders as part of our modern "gospel" preaching is taking it out of context to put words into the mouth of Jesus about signs and wonders that He never said.

The best Scriptural reference to support the presence of signs and wonders is found at the beginning of Acts where the Apostles came under severe persecution and they gathered together and prayed that they would have boldness to preach the world and that signs and wonders be done in the name of Jesus. As a result the place was shaken, they were all filled with the Spirit, and went out preaching the word with boldness, the Lord working with them with signs following.

This shows clearly that when preachers are truly filled with the Spirit, they will preach the true Gospel with boldness, and the Lord will work with them with signs and wonders following. So, if we don't see the signs and wonders, we have to assume that parts of the equation are missing. Perhaps the preachers are not genuinely filled with the Spirit, or that they are not preaching the true Gospel of Christ. Paul gives the alternative to the true Gospel of Christ which he says is the power of God that leads to salvation to those who believe it. He said to the Corinthians that he did not come to them with the enticing words of man's wisdom but with the demonstration of the Spirit and of power. So, linking the preaching of the Apostles with signs following, then Paul's "demonstration of the Spirit and power" is exactly the same. That the Apostles' preaching had the Lord working with them with signs and wonders, so Paul's preaching had the Lord working with him with the demonstration of the Spirit and power.

So, if our modern preachers are not demonstrating the power of the Holy Spirit, then it is because their preaching is not the same as that of the Apostles nor of Paul. It all stands to reason. What we need to figure out is, why???

I'm sorry. Your post is too long , can you condense ?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't believe in Benny Hinn so I lack faith in God.

That's a bit of a throw-away comment. Scraping the bottom of the barrel with that one. It is well known outside of the ultra-charismatic circles that Benny Hinn is not a true preacher of the Gospel. In fact, he doesn't preach the Gospel at all. It is well known that his team chooses which sick people come up to the stage to be ministered by him. But there are many truly sick and disabled people in a back room where Hinn goes nowhere near, and all of those go back home unchanged. Even the ones going up on stage, even though they fall down under the "power" (not of God to be sure), they get up still unhealed. There is a video clip of a woman who was prayed for and she told Hinn about her husband who was in a wheel chair after suffering a stroke. Hinn just blew her off and totally ignore the husband. Didn't even attempt to pray for him. This is clearly seen on the video clip. Hinn has made his millions through false promises of healing which have cost the lives of those who stopped taking their medication and kept away from the doctor until it was too late and they ended up dead!

So, don't use Benny Hinn as any sort of example of a genuine healing ministry, because he sure ain't!!!

 

[Taodeching]

So it must be collective faith? One persons faith isn't enough?

You seen scripture, you know what I posted. Christ couldn't do any miracles in His home town due to lack of belief as Scripture says And He was amazed at their unbelief.

 

[IWalkAlone]

You seen scripture, you know what I posted. Christ couldn't do any miracles in His home town due to lack of belief as Scripture says And He was amazed at their unbelief.

but Jesus did miracles there. He just didn't do many. Someone's lone faith must have done something.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not at all. I never said they were temporary. I said they don't exist in the church anymore. Where are they? If a true apostle showed up with signs people would follow. But all I see are frauds.

Now we are on the same page. I believe that the signs and wonders should be accompanying modern preaching of the Gospel, but like you, I am asking the question, where are they?

Here is an interesting issue. Did you know that of all the millions of people who went forward in Billy Graham's crusades, less than 5% actually went on to become long-term committed Christians? Yet, he had the reputation of being the most effective evangelist of modern times who preached the true Gospel all around the world. There is no doubt that he preached the true Gospel in the same way that Paul preached it, but without any evidence of signs and wonders. So, even when the true Gospel is preached without accompanying signs and wonders, there are less than 5% of all those who initially went forward and prayed the sinners prayer becoming long-term committed Christians.

If I was the chief executive of a company that spends millions of dollars on a product, and only achieve 5% sales for all the money put into it, how long would I remain the C.E.O.? Not long I'll bet. Yet here we have the most famous modern evangelistic mission spending millions of dollars setting up crusades all around the world, filling up whole stadiums, and yet six months later, 95% of all supposed converts have fallen away back into the world.

It seems to me that this is what results from a mere word-based preaching of the Gospel, even if the words come straight from the Bible itself. And out of all the crusades across the United States and other Western countries with thousands of converts in each crusade, nothing has changed in the secular communities; in fact, the society has become more occult oriented, more atheistic and neo-pagan! So, it would be fair to say that the general influence of the most famous and "effective" evangelistic mission in the world on our society is at its best minimal and at worst, none at all. So much for turning our society upside down with the Gospel like Paul did to the Roman Empire!!!!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm sorry. Your post is too long , can you condense ?

Edited. I wasn't being nice in my response. It's 3:30pm before my afternoon cup of coffee. I am not so nice when I go too long without coffee.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

You are joking of course! Actually my post is for those who have a concentration span longer than a goldfish!

That was not nice. Good day.