Unbeliever Submission

[Jesse2014]

As a believer, I am trying to submit to God. But I have not submitted whole-heartedly. I have been submitting to my own desires lately. And I feel horrible.

 

[com7fy8]

So, Jesse, we need to submit to how our Father rules us in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

This is Heaven's own peace in Heaven's Holy Spirit; so this does have us feeling . . . better than things we try to use to make our horrible feelings go away.

I think of how I need to be still and quiet, in order to submit to sleep. It may be like this, in submitting to God. I be quiet and trust God to do with me as He pleases, and I discover; I do not control. Like with sleep, I do not know what will happen. I do not know what my dreams will be during sleep, and I do not know what dreams God has for us that He will have coming true while we submit to Him

And while I am consciously trying to control myself to go to sleep, I am keeping myself conscious!! Like this, I can't get my own self to submit really right, to God. I need how His grace makes me submissive in love.

And I think sleep is a gift of God. So, when even nonbelievers try to get sleep to take them over, they unknowingly are submitting to God for what He does during sleep.

 

[Jesse2014]

So, Jesse, we need to submit to how our Father rules us in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

This is Heaven's own peace in Heaven's Holy Spirit; so this does have us feeling . . . better than things we try to use to make our horrible feelings go away.

I think of how I need to be still and quiet, in order to submit to sleep. It may be like this, in submitting to God. I be quiet and trust God to do with me as He pleases, and I discover; I do not control. Like with sleep, I do not know what will happen. I do not know what my dreams will be during sleep, and I do not know what dreams God has for us that He will have coming true while we submit to Him

And while I am consciously trying to control myself to go to sleep, I am keeping myself conscious!! Like this, I can't get my own self to submit really right, to God. I need how His grace makes me submissive in love.

And I think sleep is a gift of God. So, when even nonbelievers try to get sleep to take them over, they unknowingly are submitting to God for what He does during sleep.

Thank you

Yeah, I may never find peace until I really submit.

 

[Eudaimonist]

As an "unbeliever", do you personally believe you "submit" to anything ?

No, not unless you want to stretch the meaning of "submission" a loooooong way.

I don't think that I submit to reality, but I recognize that reality is only what it is and not what I might wish it to be.

I don't think that I submit to morality, but I recognize that if I want to achieve what is in my best interests, I need moral principles to help me out.

Etc.

I don't submit so much as accept truths and apply them to achieve beneficial goals.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[TillICollapse]

Hmm ... interesting responses. I may end up sitting back and reading, if more come through.

Thanks

 

[Ana the Ist]

So, Jesse, we need to submit to how our Father rules us in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

This is Heaven's own peace in Heaven's Holy Spirit; so this does have us feeling . . . better than things we try to use to make our horrible feelings go away.

I think of how I need to be still and quiet, in order to submit to sleep. It may be like this, in submitting to God. I be quiet and trust God to do with me as He pleases, and I discover; I do not control. Like with sleep, I do not know what will happen. I do not know what my dreams will be during sleep, and I do not know what dreams God has for us that He will have coming true while we submit to Him

And while I am consciously trying to control myself to go to sleep, I am keeping myself conscious!! Like this, I can't get my own self to submit really right, to God. I need how His grace makes me submissive in love.

And I think sleep is a gift of God. So, when even nonbelievers try to get sleep to take them over, they unknowingly are submitting to God for what He does during sleep.

Sooo...you think sleep is something that comes from god? Why?

 

[durangodawood]

I think we all struggle with this one. It's hard to come to terms with reality. Especially the reality of our own finitude and impotence.

Yes. We have all kinds of techniques for avoiding the reality of death.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I submit myself to the wisdom and will of God. Of course, I'm still full of sin and so I also rebel against God's wisdom and will. But on my good days, by God's grace, I am submissive to his will.

It's like my three year old son. He certainly has a will of his own. And I want him to be able to express himself. I want to give him his heart's desires. But there's also the reality that he's foolish and doesn't know anything about the world - though he is incredibly self confident. He thinks he knows everything! So I ask him to submit to my will and wisdom. I'm looking out for him. I want him to prosper. And he needs me, at this point, to direct him and correct him. But it's still incredibly hard for him to submit to my will. He thinks that I want to take things away from him or make him unhappy. He can't see how I see and doesn't understand what I understand. So he's in a paradox. In order to be happy he must submit to the will of his father who loves him. But he can't submit because he trusts himself more than he trusts me!

That's our situation with God.

Why does your son need to submit to your will to be happy?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think we all struggle with this one. It's hard to come to terms with reality. Especially the reality of our own finitude and impotence.

Your impotence maybe...everything still works on Ana.

 

[TillICollapse]

Your impotence maybe...everything still works on Ana.

Since they make pills for that now, I don't know if I fear that more should that day ever come (pun) ... or hair loss

 

[Tree of Life]

Why does your son need to submit to your will to be happy?

If my son did not submit to my will then he would be dead.

Do you have kids?

 

[Ana the Ist]

If my son did not submit to my will then he would be dead.

Do you have kids?

Nope. Aside from keeping him alive though, which seems irrelevant (he could certainly be happy up to the point of his death), I don't see why he'd have to submit to your will to be happy.... unless you punish him for disobeying.

We definitely don't need to submit to any god's will to be happy...or to live for that matter. Your analogy appears to break down upon those considerations. In fact, for many many people (a number of whom post in this very forum) trying to submit to god's will seems to make them miserable. There's a nice young man who posts in the ethics and morality section who makes a rather good example of this. He's spent his life trying to deny and repress his homosexuality... and it doesn't appear to have done anything beneficial for his health, mental state, or life in general. Quite the opposite actually.

 

[Tree of Life]

Nope. Aside from keeping him alive though, which seems irrelevant (he could certainly be happy up to the point of his death), I don't see why he'd have to submit to your will to be happy.... unless you punish him for disobeying.

I find it a bit unbelievable that you don't understand this. Maybe you'll get it if you ever have kids of your own.

We definitely don't need to submit to any god's will to be happy...or to live for that matter. Your analogy appears to break down upon those considerations. In fact, for many many people (a number of whom post in this very forum) trying to submit to god's will seems to make them miserable. There's a nice young man who posts in the ethics and morality section who makes a rather good example of this. He's spent his life trying to deny and repress his homosexuality... and it doesn't appear to have done anything beneficial for his health, mental state, or life in general. Quite the opposite actually.

There is a way that seems right to man, but in the end it leads to death.

 

[TillICollapse]

I find it a bit unbelievable that you don't understand this. Maybe you'll get it if you ever have kids of your own.

I have kids, and I don't agree that my children MUST submit to me in order to be happy.

 

[Tree of Life]

I have kids, and I don't agree that my children MUST submit to me in order to be happy.

Maybe not once your kids are mature and their will and your will begin to become more identical.

But what about when your kids are 2 or 3 years old?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I find it a bit unbelievable that you don't understand this. Maybe you'll get it if you ever have kids of your own.



There is a way that seems right to man, but in the end it leads to death.

True, I don't have kids...so why not explain what you mean instead of acting incredulous.

All "ways" lead to death in the "end". Following or not following god doesn't change that so I'm not seeing your point.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Maybe not once your kids are mature and their will and your will begin to become more identical.

But what about when your kids are 2 or 3 years old?

You know, I may not have kids but I remember being a child and doing things I wasn't supposed to according to my parents (for example, watching an R-rated movie or sneaking an extra cookie from the cookie jar) and as long as I didn't get caught and punished... these things frequently made me happy.

So why don't you just explain what it is you mean when you say your children must submit to your will to be happy. I think maybe you're confusing your happiness with theirs because it makes you happy when they're good little children.

 

[TillICollapse]

Maybe not once your kids are mature and their will and your will begin to become more identical.

But what about when your kids are 2 or 3 years old?

There are many things I asked my kids to do, or forced them to do, when they were that age, which didn't always end in their being happy.

 

[Davian]

As an "unbeliever", do you personally believe you "submit" to anything ? And what does submission mean to you ? What would "submitting" involve or entail ?

It doesn't have to be a person you submit to ... it can be a government, a principle, an ideology, spouse, etc.

If you don't believe you submit to anything, why not ?

ETA: For context, in my mind, I'm contrasting the idea of "Submission to God" which a believer may claim in some fashion. So believers, please feel free to respond as well.

I would not say that I "submit" to anything, in that context.

If I were to, for example, bring up the Silver Rule, it would be descriptive, not prescriptive, of how I live my life.

 

[Davian]

I submit myself to the wisdom and will of God. Of course, I'm still full of sin and so I also rebel against God's wisdom and will. But on my good days, by God's grace, I am submissive to his will.

It's like my three year old son. He certainly has a will of his own. And I want him to be able to express himself. I want to give him his heart's desires. But there's also the reality that he's foolish and doesn't know anything about the world - though he is incredibly self confident. He thinks he knows everything! So I ask him to submit to my will and wisdom. I'm looking out for him. I want him to prosper. And he needs me, at this point, to direct him and correct him. But it's still incredibly hard for him to submit to my will. He thinks that I want to take things away from him or make him unhappy. He can't see how I see and doesn't understand what I understand. So he's in a paradox. In order to be happy he must submit to the will of his father who loves him.

That is a strange definition of happiness.

But he can't submit because he trusts himself more than he trusts me!

That's our situation with God.

I don't follow this. Your son has you in his life, a two way relationship. He needs no "faith" to know you exist. Why he needs to submit to you I am not clear about, but it is not like you are just a character in a book.

Is there something specific that you feel your son must submit to? Is he not being religious, like yourself?