Unbeliever Submission

[Tree of Life]

Yeah. So like when my son wants to run across the street without an adult present. He must submit to my will in that case. When he wants to stay up all night and never sleep. He's gotta submit to my will then. If he never sleeps then he won't be happy.

When he wants to eat a bowl of candy for dinner instead of a well balanced meal. He's gotta submit to my will in those cases.

I could think of hundreds of other instances when he needs to submit to my will in order to ultimately be happy. I'm not just talking about a superficial, momentary happiness either. I'm talking about long term, sustainable happiness that comes from a series of good life choices.

Do you guys really not get this stuff?

 

[TillICollapse]

I would not say that I "submit" to anything, in that context.

If I were to, for example, bring up the Silver Rule, it would be descriptive, not prescriptive, of how I live my life.

Haven't heard the Silver Rule referenced in awhile ... interesting

IOW, your life is not defined by the Silver Rule. You live your life in such a way that it naturally parallels the Silver Rule to where it is more an example of it, than the result of it.

 

[TillICollapse]

Yeah. So like when my son wants to run across the street without an adult present. He must submit to my will in that case. When he wants to stay up all night and never sleep. He's gotta submit to my will then. If he never sleeps then he won't be happy.

When he wants to eat a bowl of candy for dinner instead of a well balanced meal. He's gotta submit to my will in those cases.

I could think of hundreds of other instances when he needs to submit to my will in order to ultimately be happy. I'm not just talking about a superficial, momentary happiness either. I'm talking about long term, sustainable happiness that comes from a series of good life choices.

Do you guys really not get this stuff?

I understand some of the links you are making. I'm not an idiot. But I do not equate similar instances with an ultimate end result sum of, "My child must submit to me in order to be happy."

 

[Tree of Life]

I understand some of the links you are making. I'm not an idiot. But I do not equate similar instances with an ultimate end result sum of, "My child must submit to me in order to be happy."

I mean this generally. I don't mean that he must submit to my will for his life perfectly in order to be happy.

First of all, my will for his life is rather general. I want for him to be happy and to succeed.

Because I'm a Christian I want him to know the Lord and serve him in the ways that God has designed him for. In secular speak that would be relatively equivalent to being a good citizen and discovering and using his gifts and passions for good.

My will for him is not incredibly specific like: "I desire that my son marry such and such" or "I desire that my son take over the family business."

But the fact of the matter is that I know what's good for him much better than he does, generally speaking. And so, if he wants to be happy, he must submit to my general will. But my will is for his good! It's my will that he would be happy. I know how to get him to happiness much better than he does - at least at this stage in his life.

 

[TillICollapse]

I mean this generally. I don't mean that he must submit to my will for his life perfectly in order to be happy.

First of all, my will for his life is rather general. I want for him to be happy and to succeed.

Because I'm a Christian I want him to know the Lord and serve him in the ways that God has designed him for. In secular speak that would be relatively equivalent to being a good citizen and discovering and using his gifts and passions for good.

My will for him is not incredibly specific like: "I desire that my son marry such and such" or "I desire that my son take over the family business."

But the fact of the matter is that I know what's good for him much better than he does, generally speaking. And so, if he wants to be happy, he must submit to my general will. But my will is for his good! It's my will that he would be happy. I know how to get him to happiness much better than he does - at least at this stage in his life.

There's a lot of concepts you've tossed in there. A parent can easily say, "I want what's best for my child, I want them to be happy, and I know how to help them get there ..." ... and all the while be an abusive, misguided fool, who ends up pretzeling their child into knots.

 

[Davian]

I mean this generally. I don't mean that he must submit to my will for his life perfectly in order to be happy.

First of all, my will for his life is rather general. I want for him to be happy and to succeed.

Because I'm a Christian I want him to know the Lord and serve him in the ways that God has designed him for. In secular speak that would be relatively equivalent to being a good citizen and discovering and using his gifts and passions for good.

My will for him is not incredibly specific like: "I desire that my son marry such and such" or "I desire that my son take over the family business."

But the fact of the matter is that I know what's good for him much better than he does, generally speaking. And so, if he wants to be happy, he must submit to my general will. But my will is for his good! It's my will that he would be happy. I know how to get him to happiness much better than he does - at least at this stage in his life.

By what methods do you enforce your will upon this child? Rewards? Punishments? Do you beat him? Proverbs 13:24, and all that.

If you fail to indoctrinate him into your particular religion, what will your relationship be like with him going forward? If he claims disbelief, for example - will you call him a liar, as you have done to others?

 

[Eudaimonist]

When discussing the issue of submission, I find it helpful not to blur the line between children and adults. No good can come of that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Davian]

Haven't heard the Silver Rule referenced in awhile ... interesting

IOW, your life is not defined by the Silver Rule. You live your life in such a way that it naturally parallels the Silver Rule to where it is more an example of it, than the result of it.

 

[com7fy8]

Thank you

Yeah, I may never find peace until I really submit.

Submitting to God means obeying how He takes care of us in His peace. So, for me, I pray by sensing if and how God is ruling me in His peace. So, for me, prayer has to do with seeking to sense and obey however God wants to share with me and guide me in His peace . . . along with anyone else who is submitting to God > > > if we really submit to Him, we are in company with others, sharing and helping each other and discovering better than we would think and try Because God is so more and better than we are, in how He does things with us.

Isaiah 58:11 says God will guide us "continually". So, included in submitting is trusting that God wants to guide us all the time, and not only tell us what to do, at times. It is for personal sharing in His family love, not only for being a "puppet".

By the way, Ana asks why I believe sleep comes from God. I believe that God is the source of all good things and He is living in and through the good things of creation, keeping the good things going. And this includes sleep. He started all good things of creation, but also He keeps the good things going.

Also, it says, "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (2 Timothy 3:13) So, if God is the Savior "of all men", this means to me that He is doing some kind of saving good to each and every person, no matter how evil someone is. And sleep is a good thing God blesses people by giving them sleep. If we did not get sleep, we could get into a major mess; so God in a way, I think, by giving sleep is saving people from what would happen if they did not have some sort of sleep.

Of course, our own nature can make us so we do not benefit like we could from our sleep.

I have read that sleep is not only resting. But sleep is a very high-level activity, in which, ones consider, the connection areas between nerves are cleared of all the message chemicals which were put into the connection spaces between nerves during our day's activities. During the day, a lot of messaging chemicals have "piled up" in the connection areas so that the nerves become less and less able to effectively keep sending messages. The message chemicals need to be cleared out.

Also, one part of the brain orders skeletal muscles to be "paralyzed" during dreams, so the muscles do not have you physically acting out what you are doing in your dreams!! Imagine what could happen if you dreamed you were in a boxing match while someone is sleeping next to you!

I can appreciate that that is quite a high level of operation, with various things combined . . . so more than could come with only DNA "evolution". So, for me, it "fits" that One so highly capable has designed and operates sleep.

And, by the way, ones have found that sleeping pills might put them "under", but they do not get a really natural rest from pills. Possibly, this is because a pill can depress the brain which needs to be highly functional in order to clean out the nerve connection spaces and coordinate various activities of sleep.

For me, this confirms that I need to depend on God for everything . . . so I share in the best benefit that can come. God may be every person's "Savior", but one's own character can be a very selfish dictator of how well we benefit from all God does or would do.

Jesus has so suffered and died on the cross for any and all people. But people need to trust in Jesus for the full benefit meant by His death for us on Calvary.

So, submission to God includes me not knowing all the good God has for us. I guess I could say I need to submit "openly", ready for how our Creator can be creative with us, in His love. It means submitting in His love which shares His creativity with us. So, submission is not just being a puppet, but personal sharing