Unbeliever Submission

[TillICollapse]

As an "unbeliever", do you personally believe you "submit" to anything ? And what does submission mean to you ? What would "submitting" involve or entail ?

It doesn't have to be a person you submit to ... it can be a government, a principle, an ideology, spouse, etc.

If you don't believe you submit to anything, why not ?

ETA: For context, in my mind, I'm contrasting the idea of "Submission to God" which a believer may claim in some fashion. So believers, please feel free to respond as well.

 

[Ana the Ist]

As an "unbeliever", do you personally believe you "submit" to anything ? And what does submission mean to you ? What would "submitting" involve or entail ?

It doesn't have to be a person you submit to ... it can be a government, a principle, an ideology, spouse, etc.

If you don't believe you submit to anything, why not ?

I'm sure everyone submits to certain things at certain times for certain reasons.

Is there a point behind this?

 

[Ken-1122]

As an "unbeliever", do you personally believe you "submit" to anything ? And what does submission mean to you ? What would "submitting" involve or entail ?

It doesn't have to be a person you submit to ... it can be a government, a principle, an ideology, spouse, etc.

If you don't believe you submit to anything, why not ?

I believe to submit means to give up, or to stop resistance. There has been instances in life when I have given up, or submitted.

Ken

 

[TillICollapse]

I'm sure everyone submits to certain things at certain times for certain reasons.

I'm thinking beyond basic ideas of submission (like, submitting to an exam by a physician, or submitting a report for approval). I'm thinking in terms of: submitting to a system, authority, person, etc. To be more specific, I edited my OP for context.

Is there a point behind this?

I'm curious about the ideas of "submission" from the perspective of someone who would view themselves as an "unbeliever", both in concept and practical everyday practice. Hence, why I asked.

 

[TillICollapse]

I believe to submit means to give up, or to stop resistance. There has been instances in life when I have given up, or submitted.

Ken

Hmm. I actually edited my OP ... I tried to initially be vague, but perhaps I was TOO vague lol. I was considering the idea of "Submission to God" which a believer may claim in some fashion. I was curious how an "unbeliever" may view submission. I tried to be vague so that I wouldn't influence any responses to focus solely on contrasting the "submission to God" aspect. I may have taken for granted there are different uses for the term "submission" depending on context however, thus, I did go back and edit the OP to at least narrow a type of focus.

Although applying this view ... like "submitting" in the sense of giving up, is an interesting take on "submission to God". Hmm.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm thinking beyond basic ideas of submission (like, submitting to an exam by a physician, or submitting a report for approval). I'm thinking in terms of: submitting to a system, authority, person, etc. To be more specific, I edited my OP for context.

I'm curious about the ideas of "submission" from the perspective of someone who would view themselves as an "unbeliever", both in concept and practical everyday practice. Hence, why I asked.

After reading how you've edited it, no, I don't have anything like that.

When a believer tells me they submit to god, I think they're simply adopting the ideals of a long dead religious guy. There's nothing else to it.

What do you think it means?

 

[TillICollapse]

After reading how you've edited it, no, I don't have anything like that.

When a believer tells me they submit to god, I think they're simply adopting the ideals of a long dead religious guy. There's nothing else to it.

What do you think it means?

Personally, for me the idea of "submission" means ... obedience, but in the sense that the one submitting would be placing themselves under the one they are submitting to. Sort of ... yielding their will and choices, in some regard, to let the dictate of another help to steer them. It's more than teacher/student, or employer/employee. Something more akin to master/servant.

I realize this isn't the only way to view "submission", it's just what I personally relate to it.

So to "submit to God", would involve much more in my mind than adopting the ideals of a religious guy, dead or alive for that matter lol. I can actually see how one could assess that a believer is doing that, however ... I mean believers often appeal to principles or ideals or moral concepts they view as being taught by Jesus/God/etc, and then claim to try and follow them or live by them. But that is foreign to me and hard to relate to ... why would anyone want to adopt the principles of another and copy them ? It's a bit beyond me, I have little relating point there I suppose. But the idea of DOING what another would say, that makes more sense to me in a very basic way. So to "submit to God" would be literally doing what God wants or says, etc. At least, that's how I would relate the concept.

I have a minimal concept of it, so I'm kinda/sorta fielding thoughts and ideas to ponder.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Personally, for me the idea of "submission" means ... obedience, but in the sense that the one submitting would be placing themselves under the one they are submitting to. Sort of ... yielding their will and choices, in some regard, to let the dictate of another help to steer them. It's more than teacher/student, or employer/employee. Something more akin to master/servant.

I realize this isn't the only way to view "submission", it's just what I personally relate to it.

So to "submit to God", would involve much more in my mind than adopting the ideals of a religious guy, dead or alive for that matter lol. I can actually see how one could assess that a believer is doing that, however ... I mean believers often appeal to principles or ideals or moral concepts they view as being taught by Jesus/God/etc, and then claim to try and follow them or live by them. But that is foreign to me and hard to relate to ... why would anyone want to adopt the principles of another and copy them ? It's a bit beyond me, I have little relating point there I suppose. But the idea of DOING what another would say, that makes more sense to me in a very basic way. So to "submit to God" would be literally doing what God wants or says, etc. At least, that's how I would relate the concept.

I have a minimal concept of it, so I'm kinda/sorta fielding thoughts and ideas to ponder.

"But that is foreign to me and hard to relate to ... why would anyone want to adopt the principles of another and copy them ?"

This is just a guess...but I'd say...

I suppose if we indoctrinated someone from childhood into believing what someone else says, give them a carrot and stick as incentives, and shame them into thinking they're evil and the only way to be good is to follow these beliefs...if we did all that I'd say it's rather easy to get someone to submit to your ideals.

If they aren't a child, we'd go after the weak, the down on their luck, the superstitious, etc. Basically anyone in a place in life feeling vulnerable and tailor the message to appeal to them. Easier to get those people to follow...since they already feel lost.

That's just my guess though...

 

[essentialsaltes]

I submit to the traffic laws that say I should drive on the right side of the street.

I submit to my place of employment's rule that I wear clothes.

I imagine there are a lot of things that I have not freely chosen, but that i go along with.

 

[TillICollapse]

I submit to the traffic laws that say I should drive on the right side of the street.

I submit to my place of employment's rule that I wear clothes.

I imagine there are a lot of things that I have not freely chosen, but that i go along with.

So would you say that "submission" is just a part of everyday society ?

Do you submit to any other human beings, which you do not freely choose ?

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Plenty I submit to. Mostly my ignorance of nature. I don't fully understand bears and don't think I'll be able to. Among other natural things that can destroy me

 

[TillICollapse]

"But that is foreign to me and hard to relate to ... why would anyone want to adopt the principles of another and copy them ?"

This is just a guess...but I'd say...

I suppose if we indoctrinated someone from childhood into believing what someone else says, give them a carrot and stick as incentives, and shame them into thinking they're evil and the only way to be good is to follow these beliefs...if we did all that I'd say it's rather easy to get someone to submit to your ideals.

If they aren't a child, we'd go after the weak, the down on their luck, the superstitious, etc. Basically anyone in a place in life feeling vulnerable and tailor the message to appeal to them. Easier to get those people to follow...since they already feel lost.

That's just my guess though...

Points of exploitation IOW.

And yes, just your guess lol

Plenty I submit to. Mostly my ignorance of nature. I don't fully understand bears and don't think I'll be able to. Among other natural things that can destroy me

So how do you personally define "submission" then ?

 

[TillICollapse]

I guess it's such a foreign concept to me, or limited one ... I don't even really have a good starting point. In thinking about "submission to God", even then it's such a basic way I relate to it.

I know believers who have claimed that other believers should "submit to a church authority" in order to make sure they're on the right path. "What authority are you under ? You should be in submission to some authority," etc. Or wives, submit to your husbands. Things of that nature. Maybe it's just ... vague to me even how to ask about it :/

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Points of exploitation IOW.

And yes, just your guess lol

So how do you personally define "submission" then ?

I'd define it as me accepting circumstances that are highly unchangeable at a current moment. Like if the USA turned into a Sharia theocracy and I still make minimum wage. I'll submit to the laws of the state (in public anyway)

I'm more about self preservation than anything

 

[TillICollapse]

I'd define it as me accepting circumstances that are highly unchangeable at a current moment. Like if the USA turned into a Sharia theocracy and I still make minimum wage. I'll submit to the laws of the state (in public anyway)

I'm more about self preservation than anything

Ah I gotcha.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Points of exploitation IOW.

And yes, just your guess lol

So how do you personally define "submission" then ?

I think I'd only call it exploitation if you were doing this for personal gain...money, fame, services. It's entirely possible that you think you're making the world a better place... of course, you could be very very wrong. As far as the religious go...I think they would be wrong.

 

[Tree of Life]

I submit myself to the wisdom and will of God. Of course, I'm still full of sin and so I also rebel against God's wisdom and will. But on my good days, by God's grace, I am submissive to his will.

It's like my three year old son. He certainly has a will of his own. And I want him to be able to express himself. I want to give him his heart's desires. But there's also the reality that he's foolish and doesn't know anything about the world - though he is incredibly self confident. He thinks he knows everything! So I ask him to submit to my will and wisdom. I'm looking out for him. I want him to prosper. And he needs me, at this point, to direct him and correct him. But it's still incredibly hard for him to submit to my will. He thinks that I want to take things away from him or make him unhappy. He can't see how I see and doesn't understand what I understand. So he's in a paradox. In order to be happy he must submit to the will of his father who loves him. But he can't submit because he trusts himself more than he trusts me!

That's our situation with God.

 

[durangodawood]

I try to submit to reality.

For example, when the sun "goes down" at night, I dont fight it.

 

[Tree of Life]

I try to submit to reality.

For example, when the sun "goes down" at night, I dont fight it.

I think we all struggle with this one. It's hard to come to terms with reality. Especially the reality of our own finitude and impotence.

 

[DogmaHunter]

As an "unbeliever", do you personally believe you "submit" to anything ?

Not as a rule, no.

I guess you could say that I "submit" to the law of the country I live in. Unless I disagree and then I might try to appeal or make a change happen or whatever.

And what does submission mean to you ? What would "submitting" involve or entail ?

In its simplest form, I'ld say that to "submit" would be when A states X and I think the opposite of X, I'ld be "submitting" to A when going alone with X instead of what my opinion was/is.

It depends on context and the importance of X (to me) if I'ld be prepared to submit or not.

Then again, the word "submit" has many layers of meaning.
Like another post said, I also "submit" to traffic laws, like driving on the right side of the road. That "submission" doesn't flow from a prior disagreement or whatever. That's just rather something public agreement made within society that you simply take note of and play along with, for your own safety first and foremost.

ETA: For context, in my mind, I'm contrasting the idea of "Submission to God" which a believer may claim in some fashion. So believers, please feel free to respond as well.

Submission in the religious sense, is something I would never do.

It's unconditional, unquestionable and even a default position to "submit" in that context.

I think such a form of submission is pretty stupid. I also feel like it would strip me from my dignity and self-esteem to do such a thing.

Present me with context and data, and then I'll decide what turn I'll take.
I can't generalise about this. I'ld submit to some things more easily then to others.

For me, it's impossible to make generalized statements about this.