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UMC's first openly gay bishop

circuitrider

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I've looked at provisions of the Discipline. It appears to me that the situation is as it was in the PCUSA before recent changes. While it may not be possible to reverse the election, it should be possible to lodge a disciplinary case against the bishop for conduct contrary to the Discipline. That would initially be handled within the Jurisdiction, but it appears to me that it could be appealed to the GC judicial council. The current appeal to them is for a declaratory judgement, which doesn't seem to directly affect the status of the Bishop.

I'm not an expert on the Discipline. But if the Western Jurisdiction refuses to charge her then I don't think the Judicial Council can charge her. They can overturn an improper conviction but the JC does not hold trials and so can't mandate a conviction.

So if the Western Jurisdiction refuses to press charges or she is not convicted in the trial, I'm not sure what the JC can do. I'm not at all sure they have the authority to vacate the election.
 
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circuitrider

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So it all just degenerates into "Who can win in court, who gets the building, who keeps the silverware?"

THAT would be sad.

So similar things happenned, Hedrick, regarding PCUSA and PCA?

And I was in Episcopal Church when similar things happenned...

And now UMC...

Will it ever be anything besides:
"THOSE LIBERAL CHRISTIANS
JUST DON'T BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE?"

We shall see.

Actually, those of us who believe it is time to accept LGBTQ people into the full life of the church believe we are advocating for such in obedience to scripture.
 
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hedrick

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I'm not an expert on the Discipline. But if the Western Jurisdiction refuses to charge her then I don't think the Judicial Council can charge her. They can overturn an improper conviction but the JC does not hold trials and so can't mandate a conviction.

So if the Western Jurisdiction refuses to press charges or she is not convicted in the trial, I'm not sure what the JC can do. I'm not at all sure they have the authority to vacate the election.
http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/para-413-complaints-against-bishops gives a procedure for lodging a complaint against a bishop. It doesn't say who can lodge a complaint, but if this (http://www.nationalchurch.org/Uploa...lutions/judicialprocess_outline_summary-1.pdf) is correct, in the corresponding process involving clergy, the complainant can be anyone. The language of the discipline doesn't suggest any limits.

The following is the beginning of the list of chargeable offenses. I think several possible charges appear here:

"¶ 2702.1. A bishop, clergy member of an annual conference (¶ 370), local pastor,14 clergy on honorable or administrative location, or diaconal minister may be tried when charged (subject to the statute of limitations in ¶ 2702.4)* with one or more of the following offenses: (a) immorality including but not limited to, not being celibate in singleness or not faithful in a heterosexual marriage;** (b) practices declared by The United Methodist Church to be incompatible with Christian teachings,15 including but not limited to: being a self-avowed practicing homosexual; or conducting ceremonies which celebrate homosexual unions; or performing same-sex wedding ceremonies;**"

Paragraph 413 describes how it is handled. It is handled within the Jurisdiction. However once appeals within the jurisdiction have been finished, paragraph 8 of this section http://www.umc.org/who-we-are/jurisdiction-and-powers would seem to say that it can be appealed to the Judicial Council.

This is not the same process as an appeal of the election itself. It does appear that that would have to be initiated within the Jurisdiction.
 
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hedrick

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So it all just degenerates into "Who can win in court, who gets the building, who keeps the silverware?"

THAT would be sad.

So similar things happenned, Hedrick, regarding PCUSA and PCA?
PCUSA yes. PCA, no. The PCA is conservative enough that there's never been any serious consideration of accepting homosexuality. Anyone who would advocate that is disciplined well before it becomes a significant issue for the denomination.

Within the PCUSA the final decision was made by changing the constitution to pretty explicitly permit homosexuals to be ordained, and shortly thereafter, to be married. However before that there were a serious of cases in church courts, much as there have been in the UMC. Since national policy was (in both churches) quite clear in requiring pastors to be either celibate or in a heterosexual marriage, the results of these cases were pretty clear.

I don't know the history of the book of discipline, but in the PCUSA there had been disagreement within the Church on this issue for decades. The congregation to which I belong had a gay pastor decades ago, and it was not obviously illegal at that time. However there were a series of requests for official decisions, first as authoritative interpretations of the constitution by the General Assembly, and finally a constitutional change in 1994 whose words are nearly identical to the provisions of the UMC discipline. It was pretty clear at the time that opinion was changing, and that that was pretty much the last time at which it would have been possible to get the necessary majority to write a prohibition into the constitution. (In my view this constitutional change was in effect a time bomb. It was obvious that it wouldn't last long, but adopting it and later repealing it caused a lot more damage than leaving it to the presbyteries would have.)

Previous to the constitutional change there had been a sort of guerrilla war with churches calling gay pastors, and people challenging it. The modification was intended to make it easier to challenge. However our highest judicial council set a very high bar for proof. You just about had to perform the act in question in front of a church court to be convicted. I think only 2 ministers ever had action taken against them, and they were test cases. However I think generally gay folk who would have sought ordination did not. That provision lasted until 2006.

Yes, things were handled legally. The difficulty of this issue is that conservatives feel that they can't in good conscience exist in the same denomination as homosexual clergy. Thus all attempts at compromise fail. And when you can't live with gays in your church, the obvious thing to do is pass rules against them and then demand that the rules be enforced.

The UMC's situation exactly parallels the PCUSA's situation about 10 years ago. The PCUSA had commissions of various sorts trying to work out some kind of compromise to allow both sides to live together. They failed for us and they will fail for you, for the same reason.

At that point the question becomes whether the denomination is willing to allow churches that can't tolerate being in the same denomination as gays to leave. Many presbyteries in the PCUSA have been sympathetic to conservative congregations. Most of us still consider them Christian congregations, and don't want to impede their work. Unfortunately the national denomination pressured presbyteries to demand that churches pay large amounts of money to keep their property. I'm not sure how often presbyteries actually did that. Ours hasn't. But some did, and it often led to court cases. It's hard to complain. When the denomination chooses to hold a church hostage by their property, it's hard to complain when they sue.

In my opinion the UMC can't stop a split, though it may not take the same form as it did for us. Our national body eventually accepted changes to allow full participation of gays. I think the UMC may have enough African representatives to stop that. I can envision liberal and conservative jurisdictions separating and forming two competing Methodist denominations.

Many congregations feel that it's necessary to their mission to fully accept gays. Many other congregations are unwilling to remain in a denomination where any churches fully accept gays. I very much doubt you'll be able to change either of those positions, no matter how many committees you have trying to promote unity.

The main thing you need to be thinking about is whether to allow a friendly separation or not. Can you allow separation of national organizations? If they're interested, is it OK for both groups to continue in existing pension plans? Can congregations that disagree leave amicably or will you fight in court to hold their property hostage. The PCUSA did the latter far too often. I think that's a flagrant violation of Jesus' teaching.
 
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Anto9us

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I appreciate your explanation, Hedrick, of how things went down with PCUSA.

I guess I am not too optimistic at this point that all United Methodists will be holding hands singin' Kumbaya next Sunday.
 
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St Antony

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It has reached a point in time where Methodists who believe in the Gospel...all of the Gospel...must separate themselves from an organization that is paralyzed by division and unable to reform itself. Traditional Methodists will feel at home in the Catholic Church; indeed, the Anglican communion separated from the RCC in the 16th century with few if any doctrinal differences (at least originally) with the RCC, and Methodism split off from the Anglicans in the late 18th century. In terms of liturgy and doctrine, a conservative Methodist will be very comfortable at mass. The pro-LBGTQ, more liberal Methodists, will probably migrate to the Church of Christ, PCA, a liberal Episcopalian diocese, or somewhere else that matches their ideology.
 
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Dave-W

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The pro-LBGTQ, more liberal Methodists, will probably migrate to the Church of Christ, PCA, a liberal Episcopalian diocese,
Church of Christ? They are more conservative than any standard Methodist church I have ever been to and rival some of the most reactive Holiness congregations. If you do not believe me, go read the posts on Preacher Files website - a site devoted to doctrinal discussions by Church of Christ clergy. If you register, you can get kicked off and blocked for even asking the wrong question. (like WHY are we required to take communion EVERY week?)
 
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hedrick

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Church of Christ? They are more conservative than any standard Methodist church I have ever been to and rival some of the most reactive Holiness congregations. If you do not believe me, go read the posts on Preacher Files website - a site devoted to doctrinal discussions by Church of Christ clergy. If you register, you can get kicked off and blocked for even asking the wrong question. (like WHY are we required to take communion EVERY week?)
I think he meant the United Church of Christ. I suspect he also meant PCUSA, not PCA, since the PCA is a conservative offshoot of the Presbyterian Church.
 
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circuitrider

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I think he meant the United Church of Christ. I suspect he also meant PCUSA, not PCA, since the PCA is a conservative offshoot of the Presbyterian Church.

I'm guessing that is what he means too.

I hope we find a third way not to split that allows for differences. But I'm not optimistic at this point either.

I'm a bit of a church historian and I feel like when the Methodist Episcopal Church and the Methodist Episcopal Church, South re-joined in 1939 that already the seeds of this division existed. The cultures within the UMC are almost to diverse to stay together.

I think we may almost see a north/south split with much of the SE Jurisdiction and South Central Jurisdiction leaving and NE, North Central and Western sticking largely together.

I do think they will have to find a way to for churches to pull out without too big a fight over the property. But all this is way above my pay grade.
 
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Anto9us

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It's all ABOVE OUR PAY-GRADE, circuitrider...

And yet it is not.

There are various churches

There is a place for us all

Prime choice for me is UMC

But there is that flourishing NAZARENE
Church I have never been to

There are many options

Nothing is off the table, but a COC. With NO INSTRUMENTS-- that would be a hard pill to swallow...

Liturgically, yeah, RCC, Episcopalian, Greek Orthodox which I am interested in cuz my son is in it...
No biggies in liturgy

But. I think NOW is time for UMC to step up

I was THERE in Dallas in late sixties when plain old Methodist merged into UNITED METHODIST CHURCH

But, as a 9th-grader, I confess that I was more concerned with sitting next to a gal from a cross-town Meffdist Church on the bus than the theological implcations of the time

These days,we shall see
 
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Meowzltov

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We have ordained women as senior pastors and baptize infants. So, no, I don't thing we'd be food4thought's cup of tea.
Really!!!!!!!!!! I attended a Nazarene church for four years growing up and not one baby was baptized.
 
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Catherineanne

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http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionand...on-first-openly-gay-bishop-stirs-talk-schism/

"The United Methodist Church has elected its first openly gay bishop. Karen Oliveto, a married lesbian "

How can this have happened, given the ban on the ordination of “self-avowed practicing homosexuals??? And do you think the denomination will split over this?

As ever, the sin is not being gay, but being honest about being gay.

As the headline tells us very clearly, this is the first 'openly gay' bishop, which strongly suggests that others have been gay, but kept quiet about it, and that the church approved of that. So the sin is honesty.

'We don't mind gay bishops, as long as they are deceitful.'; the stance of very, very many Christian churches today.

Good to know.

Meanwhile, I would be utterly appalled if anyone suggested I pry into the personal life of my own bishop. What he and his spouse do in their own home is none of my concern. I extend the same courtesy to +Oliveto.
 
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Maid Marie

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Really!!!!!!!!!! I attended a Nazarene church for four years growing up and not one baby was baptized.
Nazarene polity allows for either infant baptism or infant dedication. I was baptized as a baby in the Church of the Nazarene. I think it is one of the best things that my parents ever did.
 
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Dave-W

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Dave-W

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Meanwhile, I would be utterly appalled if anyone suggested I pry into the personal life of my own bishop. What he and his spouse do in their own home is none of my concern. I extend the same courtesy to +Oliveto.
Author Lauren Winner is a convert to Anglican Christianity from orthodox Judaism during her college years. (a somewhat circuitous route described in her first book Mudhouse Sabbath) In one of her later books on sexuality, (do not remember the name) she made the point that the church as a whole erred by hiding and privatizing marital sexuality. Her reading of NT scripture (probably from her Jewish cultural understanding) said it was to be a communal act.

So I am not so sure that such things should be considered "personal life."
 
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circuitrider

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Since scripture refers to homosexuality as an abomination and mandates gays be put to death it seems obvious that you are not being obidient to scripture.

The apostle Paul also condemned homosexuality in Romans.

So the UMC is correct in following scripture and taking a stand against it.

The Bible also refers to eating shrimp and wearing mixed fabrics as an abomination. So I assume you support executing persons who eat at Red Lobster and those who wear cotton-poly blend dress shirts?

If not, how about we try to be consistent with how we read the Bible and not pick sexual sins out of the Old Testament when we don't follow hardly any other prescription out of the holiness code in the Church?
 
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