UMC's first openly gay bishop

[Dave-W]

When people mean "God never does anything different than God did before" I don't buy that

Indeed. It reduces GOd to some kind of computer or robot that is following a pre-programed course of action. Which means if we can figure out the functions of the program, We can control God.

And that is entirely false.

 

[circuitrider]

Well, I'm neither Calvinist, nor Wesleyan.

Right, but this is a place for people with Wesleyan theology. So when that theology is contradicted here I feel led to point that out.

 

[circuitrider]

For what it's worth, as a seeker looking in, there is nothing going on here that is compelling a rationally minded agnostic to want anything to do with the church. I was raised Catholic, have lived most of my life agnostic and since I have had children have recently felt called to raise them in the Methodist tradition. From what I can tell, this whole ridiculous discussion has had the input of maybe two actual Methodists....Can someone who is an actual Methodist please change my mind before I jump ship and start looking into Disciples of Christ or United Church of Christ options?

Nik, just as an FYI, I am an Elder in Full Connection in the UMC and am the lead pastor of a UM church.

Right now the UMC is going through some hard times but I hope you might give us a chance to get things fixed. We are in one of those time of historical shift similar to the shift that caused southern Methodists to, for a time, split with the northern Methodists over slavery. United Methodists may very well split over sexuality issues if we do not come up with a fair compromise for Methodists with differing views.

When we split or when we come to a compromise much of the arguing and the fighting will be over on this issue, at least for this generation. If we split I think a future younger generation will think we were nuts to split over LGBTQ issues and then will put us back together again as happened in 1939 when the northerners and southerners got back together.

Something will be decided between now and the next General Conference because the Bishops are tasked with forming a commission during this quadrennial to propose a solution.

I think the Disciples and the UCC are great denominations! But what you will run into in both of those denominations is that each and every congregation (because they are congregationalists) has to decide if they will be open to LGBTQ people or not. So you have to pick and choose carefully to attend the congregation that you are comfortable with. Even as liberal as the UCC is nationally, there are plenty of UCC churches that are not "Open and Affirming" to use their terminology. My own adult daughter now attends a progressive UCC congregation.

For me, I do not believe that congregational polity is Biblical polity. Lone Ranger congregations in such denominations can do awesome work or be totally awful because there is no authority above them to supervise their work. I prefer a connectional church system and see that as more Biblical. Right now that means I'd only consider being a Methodist or an Episcopalian (if there were no Methodists). But I much prefer the Methodist appointment system over the episcopacy that the TEC currently follows where the Bishop is more advisory than authoritative in matters of pastoral placement.

 

[Meowzltov]

When people mean "God never does anything different than God did before" I don't buy that

Consider that God is an eternal being who exists outside of time (space-time is a feature of the created universe). That would mean there is no before or after for God. How then could God change?

 

[Meowzltov]

Right, but this is a place for people with Wesleyan theology. So when that theology is contradicted here I feel led to point that out.

Quite true.

 

[circuitrider]

Consider that God is an eternal being who exists outside of time (space-time is a feature of the created universe). That would mean there is no before or after for God. How then could God change?

So you are telling me there is something God can't do if God wants to? That sounds like you are saying that God isn't omnipotent. ;-)

But seriously, changing your mind and changing your "being" are different things. I would agree that nature of God doesn't change. But that doesn't mean that God cannot change how God chooses to do things, unless of course you think there is some larger set of rules controlling God, which I think precludes a Christian definition of God.

 

[hedrick]

I think the Disciples and the UCC are great denominations! But what you will run into in both of those denominations is that each and every congregation (because they are congregationalists) has to decide if they will be open to LGBTQ people or not. So you have to pick and choose carefully to attend the congregation that you are comfortable with. Even as liberal as the UCC is nationally, there are plenty of UCC churches that are not "Open and Affirming" to use their terminology. My own adult daughter now attends a progressive UCC congregation.

Many of the denominations that are accepting are connectional. PCUSA and ELCA, e.g. However individual congregations still decide how accepting they're going to be. From what I know of the UMC (and I know a fair amount, since I was confirmed there, and my father is still active), it's not likely to take a different approach. At least not without some kind of virtual breakup where there were overlapping jurisdictions among which congregations could choose. But that's a bit too close to the old Central Jurisdiction. (For those that don't know UMC history, there was one national jurisdiction into which all black churches were placed.)

 

[Meowzltov]

So you are telling me there is something God can't do if God wants to? That sounds like you are saying that God isn't omnipotent. ;-)

As you have agreed, God cannot do anything outside his nature. Part of his nature is that He is eternal, not timebound. He has no before and after.

 

[circuitrider]

As you have agreed, God cannot do anything outside his nature. Part of his nature is that He is eternal, not timebound. He has no before and after.

Eternal and not time bound doesn't mean that God can't change the way God chooses to do things. To say otherwise is to imply that God, the ruler of all the universe, can't make choices based on events in God's own creation. Time bound no, time involved yes.

 

[circuitrider]

Many of the denominations that are accepting are connectional. PCUSA and ELCA, e.g. However individual congregations still decide how accepting they're going to be. From what I know of the UMC (and I know a fair amount, since I was confirmed there, and my father is still active), it's not likely to take a different approach. At least not without some kind of virtual breakup where there were overlapping jurisdictions among which congregations could choose. But that's a bit too close to the old Central Jurisdiction. (For those that don't know UMC history, there was one national jurisdiction into which all black churches were placed.)

They are connectional, but are less tightly connectional in some ways. The PCUSA and the ELCA don't have an appointment system for clergy. The UMC system is more nationally and internationally hierarchical. The ELCA and the PCUSA are US churches while the UMC is an international Church.

There are things that the local church can and do legitimately decide for themselves. But, using race as an example, the local church cannot decide they don't want a pastor of another race (or gender either). The local church doesn't decide its own doctrine. The local church currently has no input into whom a pastor performs a wedding for. That is the pastors decision alone. The pastor has ultimate say in the UMC as to who can join the local church they pastor. Also the pastor has authority over the sacraments in a way the pastor does not in the PCUSA for example.

Connectional, but different kinds of connections.

 

[Meowzltov]

Eternal and not time bound doesn't mean that God can't change the way God chooses to do things. To say otherwise is to imply that God, the ruler of all the universe, can't make choices based on events in God's own creation. Time bound no, time involved yes.

Eternal and not time bound means there is no before where he is one way or an after where he is a different way.

 

[circuitrider]

Eternal and not time bound means there is no before where he is one way or an after where he is a different way.

Open Heart, I think you'd find that there is little consensus on exactly how God deal with time. You are making assumptions that being eternal means God can't do anything different than he ever did so. That is basically deism. I'm not even sure that the theology of your own Church agrees with what you are contending. It almost makes it sound like you are saying that God doesn't have free will, one of the attributes of the divine nature.

 

[hedrick]

http://www.iep.utm.edu/god-time/ (supported by other sources) says that the Catholic Church since Augustine has seen God as outside time.
https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine-scripture/the-symbol-of-faith/son-of-god and other Orthodox sources see God as timeless.

So I think Open Heart has some basis for seeing timelessness as a traditional Christian view. However the first article also says that the majority of philosophers today, including Christians, do not see God as purely outside of time.

In this sermon, http://www.umcmission.org/Find-Resources/John-Wesley-Sermons/Sermon-58-On-Predestination, Wesley says that God sees all of time at once. However many Arminians believe that the Arminian view works best with a view that doesn't place God wholly outside of time.

Obviously you would know better than I about current Methodist views on the subject.

 

[circuitrider]

Hedrick, I find that Wesleyan/Arminian thinking about God tries to move us away from using the absolutist language that comes more out of Greek philosophy than the early church or Judaism. The "Omni" words aren't really Biblical though they describe some things about God imperfectly.

United Methodists see us as on a journey with God. We don't see God as the "unmoved mover" or some kind of being won't or can't answer prayer because that would involve "change." I think Open Heart has confused constancy of nature with always taking the same actions. They aren't synonymous.

One of the never changing thing about God is God's love for us. That love causes God to seek more than one means to lead us to salvation. the Bible shows God changing God's game plan between the Old and New Covenant. His constant unchanging love causes God to change God's tactic. It is his steadfast nature that leads God to try something different.

 

[hedrick]

Similar views are common in the PCUSA as well. It’s certainly the most straightforward reading of Scripture. The PCUSA pastor whose views I know best is an open theist, as is the brightest teenager I’ve worked with.

My main concern is that space-time is part of the created universe. If God actually created the universe from nothing, it’s hard to see how he can be in time himself (except as Christ, obviously). It's been suggested that while the time part of space-time is part of the created universe, it reflects something that's not. Maybe.

Of course creation ex nihilo is also up for discussion in modern theology.

 

[circuitrider]

Similar views are common in the PCUSA as well. It’s certainly the most straightforward reading of Scripture. The PCUSA pastor whose views I know best is an open theist, as is the brightest teenager I’ve worked with.

My main concern is that space-time is part of the created universe. If God actually created the universe from nothing, it’s hard to see how he can be in time himself (except as Christ, obviously). It's been suggested that while the time part of space-time is part of the created universe, it reflects something that's not. Maybe.

Of course creation ex nihilo is also up for discussion in modern theology.

I don't expect God to be "in time." But I also don't expect God to be controlled by our view of what is out of time. Controlling God's ability be a God who acts as God chooses to act by positing that God can't change anything sounds to me like a form of predeterminism that doesn't fit the Bible.