UMC Split - the Traditional Denomination and the rest

Methodized

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I expect that depends on whether the African bishops still have a vote, since they are the ones who have preserved the status quo ante.

Not ultimately. If the General Conference meets and if some how not enough delegates have left for the new GMC and the GC votes to continue to prevent same sex marriages and ordinations I believe several of the six UMC jurisdictions (3-4 or them) in the US then would either split to form another Methodist denomination or those jurisdictions would just do as the western jurisdiction is now doing and refuse to enforce these provisions of the Discipline which we believe has codified discrimination and hate against members of our churches.

We are done telling our LGBTQ+ sibling that we won't fully minister to them or allow them to minister because of a man made set of rules that we believe denies the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is basically how we ended the Methodist Church from not allowing us to perform interracial marriages years ago.

Ultimately this is why the WCA is starting a new denomination. They will give all kinds of other reasons. But the ultimate reason is to continue to discriminate against LGBTQ people and to kick anyone out who doesn't go along within their own ranks. (Which their new Discipline will allow.)
 
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Methodized

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Well, that’s very sad.

I guess it depends on your perspective. Protestants and Methodists split when the issue is important enough. I believe in the value of unity. But there are times when people are too different to be in relationship in the same organization.
 
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Methodized

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By the way, you asked a question (according to my email) that I now don't see. But it is worth answering. You asked about the GC kicking out clergy who disagree with the Discipline. That isn't something the GC can do.

They have on the books rules that if you perform a same sex wedding you can be defrocked. But you can't be defrocked for disagreeing with something in the Discipline that isn't listed in one of our doctrinal standards. The rules on same sex marriage aren't in our doctrinal statements.

The Book of Discipline normally changes every four years. Clergy and lay people advocate for those changes and then they are voted on. Advocating to change the BOD is a fundamental right of being United Methodist.
 
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Joy

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Was this in reference to something in particular?
 
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Tommy Reeves

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Not ultimately. If the General Conference meets and if some how not enough delegates have left for the new GMC and the GC votes to continue to prevent same sex marriages and ordinations I believe several of the six UMC jurisdictions (3-4 or them) in the US then would either split to form another Methodist denomination or those jurisdictions would just do as the western jurisdiction is now doing and refuse to enforce these provisions of the Discipline which we believe has codified discrimination and hate against members of our churches.

We are done telling our LGBTQ+ sibling that we won't fully minister to them or allow them to minister because of a man made set of rules that we believe denies the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is basically how we ended the Methodist Church from not allowing us to perform interracial marriages years ago.

Ultimately this is why the WCA is starting a new denomination. They will give all kinds of other reasons. But the ultimate reason is to continue to discriminate against LGBTQ people and to kick anyone out who doesn't go along within their own ranks. (Which their new Discipline will allow.)
 
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Tommy Reeves

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The liberals have hijacked the United Methodist Church.

Since the United Methodist Church was organized in 1969, the Doctrine was traditional in their thinking and beliefs following the Methodist Book of Discipline.

The liberals came along wanting to change the beliefs of the UMC. They have made changes in The Book of Discipline, at every Bi-annual Conference and are wanting to make even greater changes in the future.

Yet, because of the changes that they have made over the years to the wording of The Book of Discipline, the Traditionalist Methodist who still practice the traditional ways of their ancestor are the ones that are being required to leave The United Methodist Church and start a new religion. The leaving faction is going to have to pay a great deal of money if they want to keep their property. This faction will be called The Global Methodist Church.

Shouldn’t it be the other way around? Shouldn’t it be that the ones desiring to completely change the Doctrine of our Religion are the ones that should be leaving the UMC and have to take on the expense of retaining their property if their entire Church votes to go with the faction of members who want to make all of the changes?
 
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hedrick

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The liberals have hijacked the United Methodist Church.

Since the United Methodist Church was organized in 1969, the Doctrine was traditional in their thinking and beliefs following the Methodist Book of Discipline.

The liberals came along wanting to change the beliefs of the UMC. They have made changes in The Book of Discipline, at every Bi-annual Conference and are wanting to make even greater changes in the future.

Yet, because of the changes that they have made over the years to the wording of The Book of Discipline, the Traditionalist Methodist who still practice the traditional ways of their ancestor are the ones that are being required to leave The United Methodist Church and start a new religion. The leaving faction is going to have to pay a great deal of money if they want to keep their property. This faction will be called The Global Methodist Church.

Shouldn’t it be the other way around? Shouldn’t it be that the ones desiring to completely change the Doctrine of our Religion are the ones that should be leaving the UMC and have to take on the expense of retaining their property if their entire Church votes to go with the faction of members who want to make all of the changes?
It doesn’t appear that the conservatives want to stay. I see two reasons. 1) The UMC is a large denomination with questionablevlong term funding. The dominant conservative churches are a fairly small group with good funding. Do they actually want responsibility for the whole thing? 2) most pastors and national leaders are moderate (meaning if they aren’t affirming, they want to coexist with those that are) or liberal; putting conservative rules in doesn’t fix anything. It just makes the church dysfunctional.

It’s very difficult for a minority to eject the majority, even if African votes make it seem possible.
 
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seeking.IAM

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I think this will be devastating to many churches and perhaps the denomination(s) as a whole. I shared a meal with today with a staff member of my former, large UMC which has a congregation quite divided on this subject. I was told the staff have all decided to leave and stay UMC if the church vote is to disaffiliate, leaving the victors without any staff.

If the majority vote is to disaffiliate, the victors will not have the money to pay the exit fee unless they take a mortgage on their building. If they take a mortgage on their building, they won't have enough money left over to pay staff after the moderate/progressives leave.

If the moderate/progressives prevail, those wanting disaffiliation will leave, and the remnant UMC congregation won't be able to support all current staffing and ministries.

It's a lose/lose proposition. A once reasonably strong body is destined to become two weakened bodies. People once content to worship with each other are now at odds with each other. I think this is so sad for this church I was part of for over 20 years. May God be with them (and you) all.
 
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bekkilyn

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It doesn't matter if 90 percent of the UMC in both the U.S. and globally are traditional and support orthodox and Wesleyan views of Christianity if the majority of lifetime-appointed Bishops are so-called progressives and refuse to abide by or enforce the Discipline. The Discipline hasn't changed and yet practicing gay clergy are being ordained and preaching heresies, drag queens who believe that "God is nothing" are licensed to serve in churches and are certified candidates for ordination, and students at Methodist seminaries are holding services in "pride" chapels and praying to the "Great Queer One." Are any of those things going to change if in 2024 or beyond even if there are enough traditionalists still left in the UMC to keep the Discipline the same? This lack of accountability is a far more troubling issue that has largely been covered up by disputes over "gay marriage".

Since the so-called progressives refuse to leave and are not being held accountable in any way by the Bishops that sympathize with them and the Discipline isn't being enforced, traditionalists either have the choice to remain in an organization which continues to go apostate by the day hoping and praying that God will choose to turn things around somehow, or be the ones to leave and that's why so many traditional congregations and church members are doing just that. It's not at all because traditional Christianity has been the minority view, even in the U.S. Many congregations and even clergy are just now finding out that it's not just about a couple or three crazies out west that can largely be ignored but has now infiltrated their bible belt community as well.

For a great many UMC churches, if a church votes to decide to remain UMC and affirm so-called progressive theology (because a whole bunch of people on the membership roster who haven't been active in decades suddenly appear to vote against the interests of the congregation as has been happening in many churches), the people in those churches will simply leave and join another church or plant a GMC church or anything other than staying in an organization that increasingly doesn't put Jesus first or uphold scripture as the primary authority.

The big question I've heard in my area from UMC members is "why do we have to be the ones to leave?" because it doesn't make sense that the majority has to go because the minority who have hijacked the whole organization cannot be held accountable by anyone, but that's sadly where we are now whether God wills us to stay and try to encourage repentance within the UMC or shake the dust off of our feet and serve elsewhere.
 
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hedrick

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It doesn't matter if 90 percent of the UMC in both the U.S. and globally are traditional and support orthodox and Wesleyan views of Christianity if the majority of lifetime-appointed Bishops are so-called progressives and refuse to abide by or enforce the Discipline. The Discipline hasn't changed and yet practicing gay clergy are being ordained and preaching heresies, drag queens who believe that "God is nothing" are licensed to serve in churches and are certified candidates for ordination, and students at Methodist seminaries are holding services in "pride" chapels and praying to the "Great Queer One." Are any of those things going to change if in 2024 or beyond even if there are enough traditionalists still left in the UMC to keep the Discipline the same? This lack of accountability is a far more troubling issue that has largely been covered up by disputes over "gay marriage".

Since the so-called progressives refuse to leave and are not being held accountable in any way by the Bishops that sympathize with them and the Discipline isn't being enforced, traditionalists either have the choice to remain in an organization which continues to go apostate by the day hoping and praying that God will choose to turn things around somehow, or be the ones to leave and that's why so many traditional congregations and church members are doing just that. It's not at all because traditional Christianity has been the minority view, even in the U.S. Many congregations and even clergy are just now finding out that it's not just about a couple or three crazies out west that can largely be ignored but has now infiltrated their bible belt community as well.

For a great many UMC churches, if a church votes to decide to remain UMC and affirm so-called progressive theology (because a whole bunch of people on the membership roster who haven't been active in decades suddenly appear to vote against the interests of the congregation as has been happening in many churches), the people in those churches will simply leave and join another church or plant a GMC church or anything other than staying in an organization that increasingly doesn't put Jesus first or uphold scripture as the primary authority.

The big question I've heard in my area from UMC members is "why do we have to be the ones to leave?" because it doesn't make sense that the majority has to go because the minority who have hijacked the whole organization cannot be held accountable by anyone, but that's sadly where we are now whether God wills us to stay and try to encourage repentance within the UMC or shake the dust off of our feet and serve elsewhere.
Hypothetically I guess bishops could fail to enforce the ban if 90% of members disagreed. But in fact a slight plurality of Methodists appear to support gay marriage. How do Methodists view homosexuality and same-sex marriage? Some poll results Questions about gays are worded in various ways in surveys, giving various results. Support for gay marriage is the strongest wording. Weaker things like “should be accepted by society” typically get more support.
 
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bekkilyn

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Hypothetically I guess bishops could fail to enforce the ban if 90% of members disagreed. But in fact a slight plurality of Methodists appear to support gay marriage. How do Methodists view homosexuality and same-sex marriage? Some poll results Questions about gays are worded in various ways in surveys, giving various results. Support for gay marriage is the strongest wording. Weaker things like “should be accepted by society” typically get more support.

Unfortunately "gay marriage" is only the very tip of the iceberg of all the issues. There are apparently very deep theological disagreements as well that are only made all the clearer due to the lack of accountability within the leadership. The thing is, if 90% or a majority of members disagreed with the Discipline, then the Traditional Plan would have failed drastically in 2019 and the Discipline would have been changed, but it's not what happened. Since the UMC is a global denomination, the vast majority of members did not agree that the Discipline should be changed to affirm and bless gay "marriage" and practicing gay clergy. Now since the minority extremists won't leave, the majority appears to be doing so with more and more congregations voting to leave each day with many others who want to leave but currently being held hostage by their annual conferences who are burdening congregations with financial obligations well beyond what the Discipline requires. Some of those situations are to the point of getting explosive with lawsuits and the like. I suppose though that they might eventually get a 90 percent majority once they get rid of everyone else though. They could just keep putting off the General Conference (due to some other "emergency" real or imagined) until they have the numbers to vote to change the Discipline to whatever they want.

Came across this interesting article today:

Liberal Bishops Have Redefined United Methodist Polity
 
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hedrick

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The thing is, if 90% or a majority of members disagreed with the Discipline, then the Traditional Plan would have failed drastically in 2019 and the Discipline would have been changed, but it's not what happened.
The survey results I gave were for the US. The Traditional Plan was passed with the aid of African votes. The UMC constitution is weird. African conferences can tailor the Discipline for local needs. The US can't. That's going to be fixed, one way or the other.
 
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seeking.IAM

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Do you think the recent action of the African UMC Bishops will change the trajectory of the split?

African UMC Bishop Letter.jpg
 
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tampasteve

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Lots of disaffiliations going around this week, sadly. FWIW I am still a member at a UMC church and attend on occasion.
 
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Sketcher

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The "Traditional" denomination has taken the name "Global Methodist Church" . Using the TEC split up as a guide, the GMC will be the ACNA of the Methodist denominations - conservative, "side B or X/Y" on same sex issues, and have a large backing from African and Asian contingents of the church.
So, I'm confused - didn't this conservative contingent win in 2019? If they won, why are they leaving?

Non-Methodist here, though I do have a relative who is in either the "progressive" or "radical" camp who left the denomination in part because of this.
 
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tampasteve

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So, I'm confused - didn't this conservative contingent win in 2019? If they won, why are they leaving?

Non-Methodist here, though I do have a relative who is in either the "progressive" or "radical" camp who left the denomination in part because of this.
My understanding is that they did not get a "win" so much as a stay. The meetings keep getting postponed, although there are groups trying to get the meetings held next year rather than being postponed again to 2024. But the African bishops are throwing the GMC off balance as they are not going along with them at this time.
 
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hedrick

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So, I'm confused - didn't this conservative contingent win in 2019? If they won, why are they leaving?

Non-Methodist here, though I do have a relative who is in either the "progressive" or "radical" camp who left the denomination in part because of this.
Yes, they won. But there are several issues

It would be pretty uncomfortable to be in a church that accepts gays, but can’t do so officially because of rules you imposed on them. (A majority of the US church would at least coexist with accepting churches. We know that because of recent votes by all the jurisdictions in the US. The anti gay policy was adopted by votes that include international representatives. There is currently no real US body.) Conservatives want to be part of a conservative church, not a liberal one that is hamstrung.

Some of the provisions were found unconstitutional. The rest are being ignored. The US church is not going to eject a majority of its leadership, o matter what international delegates do.
 
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