Uganda legislature passes a law making it a crime to be gay [law signed, includes death penalty for some cases]

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,678
18,559
Orlando, Florida
✟1,262,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
I dug as hard as I cared to and I'll be honest, I couldn't find more than maybe 6-12 genuine examples mostly from pacific northwestern tribes. I couldn't tell you the exact number of tribes, but I'm certain some of those examples were pulled from the same tribe.

I know for a fact there were two-spirit individuals in plains Indian tribes. The French used the term berdache to describe them, usually in harsh, condemning terms. Anthropologists have described that behavior in the past as homosexual transsexualism, and it typically how queer identities manifest in traditional non-western cultures.

I disagree....I don't know any expert who agrees with you. We can probably generally describe about 90%+ of North American tribes as patriarchal, familial monarchies, non-egalitarian (chieftains typically horded wealth), with distinct gender roles. Men were expected to hunt food, make war, and die in battle. Almost universally disgrace, torture, and shame were heaped upon those who were cowardly.

Most Native Americans were matrilineal, meaning that wealth and clan were passed down through the mother's line. They almost never had "nuclear family" type dynamics. Their governments were also based on consensus, and a "chief" was not analogous to a king. That makes it harder to draw direct analogies to our own culture.

Not all Native American cultures were warlike, it just depended on their circumstances. War wasn't normative for most of the cultures, and required rituals of atonement and purification.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,580
11,398
✟437,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I know for a fact there were two-spirit individuals in plains Indian tribes. The French used the term berdache to describe them, usually in harsh, condemning terms. Anthropologists have described that behavior in the past as homosexual transsexualism, and it typically how queer identities manifest in traditional non-western cultures.

Well...there's no doubt French settlers used the term "berdache" as a term occasionally describing certain members of certain plains Indian tribes.

The main problem with this is treating it as part of the lgbtq rainbow. Berdache means "slave boy" with roots in Arabic and Italian.

And without getting into any dirtier contexts...the question then becomes whether we would consider such a person even gay at all,...or merely forced into a pederastic relationship by force or tradition. I mean, do you consider "catamites" homosexuals? I don't.

Typically, we consider one homosexual based on their sexual preference or orientation...something freely chosen, not forced upon them from childhood.

Most Native Americans were matrilineal, meaning that wealth and clan were passed down through the mother's line.

When I said patriarchal, I was referring to authority, not inheritance.


They almost never had "nuclear family" type dynamics.

Feel free to provide any evidence.


Their governments were also based on consensus,

Not really....I'm sure that many had councils or group chieftains....but I can't recall any that took group consensus.

and a "chief" was not analogous to a king.

No he's not analogous...but it's close enough for comparison.


That makes it harder to draw direct analogies to our own culture.

As with the term "berdache".


Not all Native American cultures were warlike, it just depended on their circumstances.

I can only think of a few truly pacifist tribes known to exist. None from North America. Sure, they weren't constantly waging war...they were typically subject to the dictates and pressures of the most warlike tribe nearby like the Pequot or Comanche.



War wasn't normative for most of the cultures, and required rituals of atonement and purification.

Scalping, torture, enslavement.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,580
11,398
✟437,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
It's irrelevant to the conversation.

About 4 years ago a rather infamous clip of Ugandan news or the tabloid version of briefly went viral. You can find it by typing "why are you gay?" into YouTube or really any other similar video player service.

In the clip, the host speaks of a "raging debate" and has on a "LGBTQ" activist. The global lgbtq activist movement reached Uganda probably around this time....through internet or other means.

I'm sure such groups and activists had a presence before, and they were probably less active earlier than 6-8 years ago.

Judging by the tone and questions of the interviewer, he's unintentionally rude, genuinely curious, and generally oblivious to the existence of anything about gay, queer, or trans people. It's not a solid end of your argument....but to claim "this long tradition existed until Christianity came along" seems real unlikely. Instead, it seems like a place where homosexuals have so long been shunned that the phenomenon of their existence is almost entirely new to the nation. Something pushed by lgbtq activists.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,678
18,559
Orlando, Florida
✟1,262,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
Well...there's no doubt French settlers used the term "berdache" as a term occasionally describing certain members of certain plains Indian tribes.

The main problem with this is treating it as part of the lgbtq rainbow. Berdache means "slave boy" with roots in Arabic and Italian.

And without getting into any dirtier contexts...the question then becomes whether we would consider such a person even gay at all,...or merely forced into a pederastic relationship by force or tradition. I mean, do you consider "catamites" homosexuals? I don't.

Typically, we consider one homosexual based on their sexual preference or orientation...something freely chosen, not forced upon them from childhood.



When I said patriarchal, I was referring to authority, not inheritance.




Feel free to provide any evidence.

Matrilineal kin groupings based on clans are not a "Nuclear family" by definition. The biological father doesn't perform the same role as in the nuclear family, that role goes to the mother's brother to teach them what it means to be a member of the clan.
 
Upvote 0

DaisyDay

I Did Nothing Wrong!! ~~Team Deep State
Jan 7, 2003
38,086
17,558
Finger Lakes
✟212,659.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's an example. You want a general survey of all 3000?
It’s an example about transgenderism not homosexuality.


I'm sorry, again, if you're completely oblivious to the sort of outlandish claims made in anthropology these days, you'd have no idea what I'm talking about.




It's literally stated as such by the people who passed it. This is largely in response to teachers in schools being accused of homosexual behavior with children and the Church of England allowing gay marriage.

They literally passed this because of what they see happening overseas and a few incidents in their own nation.


You'll notice, no article anywhere says "a group of white evangelicals convinced Uganda to pass this law".

Straw man.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,580
11,398
✟437,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Matrilineal kin groupings based on clans are not a "Nuclear family" by definition.

How so? Some are polyamorous but not the majority. You're talking about inheritance and family name, etc. Also I'm conceding this because frankly, I didn't make it a point....I really only know about the Navajo doing this.



The biological father doesn't perform the same role as in the nuclear family, that role goes to the mother's brother to teach them what it means to be a member of the clan.

You're killing me here....you're still arguing for fixed gender roles. I'm glad we're not arguing about berdache because frankly, it's a weird argument...and I don't think you want to have it any more than I do. I think you have probably noticed my point though, that there's this weird sort of "claiming" going on where the lgbtq community is adopting these historical examples of various cultural practices that really shouldn't be viewed as being anything outside the context of what they were in that specific culture as examples of "queer" or lgbtq people and they simply weren't. They've claimed catamites as an example and I know what the catamites of Tiberius did....I don't see why they would want to claim that. They've claimed eunuchs as an example for transgender people and that's simply not correct. These don't have any analogous examples to our culture. When I'm talking about actual homosexual behavior, the idea of Mr. Bear Chases Cub and Mr. Runs Like A Girl going into the wigwam and getting it on seems while the whole tribe is just "cool with it" doesn't seem to carry much weight. Yes, I think those are funny names, don't get offended, lighten up.

Typically, I tend to see the sort of pederastic relationship that existed between men of these tribes and others throughout history (Spartans are pretty well known) as holdover of a sort of universal problem within tribal cultures to begin with, and that's the young age of sexual maturity in men. In some aboriginal cultures for example, this was solved by literally exiling young men from the tribe for awhile. The problem occurs because you have an excess of young men, and they aren't needed for hunting or aren't ready to make war, and can't be watched around the women at all times....generally speaking. In order to keep Todd's son from getting it on with your wife while you're out hunting deer or something and needing to collect his head is a problem that requires solving somehow.

All in all I think male sexuality is easily the most overlooked, understudied, and oversimplified topic which has seen far less progress and research than female sexuality comparatively. My main point here though, is that statistically when we looked these relationships....we are looking at tribes and cultures that simply cannot have enough pedophiles to explain the relationship nor do they have some magical ability to spot homosexuals at an early age.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,678
18,559
Orlando, Florida
✟1,262,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
How so? Some are polyamorous but not the majority. You're talking about inheritance and family name, etc. Also I'm conceding this because frankly, I didn't make it a point....I really only know about the Navajo doing this.





You're killing me here....you're still arguing for fixed gender roles. I'm glad we're not arguing about berdache because frankly, it's a weird argument...and I don't think you want to have it any more than I do. I think you have probably noticed my point though, that there's this weird sort of "claiming" going on where the lgbtq community is adopting these historical examples of various cultural practices that really shouldn't be viewed as being anything outside the context of what they were in that specific culture as examples of "queer" or lgbtq people and they simply weren't. They've claimed catamites as an example and I know what the catamites of Tiberius did....I don't see why they would want to claim that. They've claimed eunuchs as an example for transgender people and that's simply not correct. These don't have any analogous examples to our culture. When I'm talking about actual homosexual behavior, the idea of Mr. Bear Chases Cub and Mr. Runs Like A Girl going into the wigwam and getting it on seems while the whole tribe is just "cool with it" doesn't seem to carry much weight. Yes, I think those are funny names, don't get offended, lighten up.

Typically, I tend to see the sort of pederastic relationship that existed between men of these tribes and others throughout history (Spartans are pretty well known) as holdover of a sort of universal problem within tribal cultures to begin with, and that's the young age of sexual maturity in men. In some aboriginal cultures for example, this was solved by literally exiling young men from the tribe for awhile. The problem occurs because you have an excess of young men, and they aren't needed for hunting or aren't ready to make war, and can't be watched around the women at all times....generally speaking. In order to keep Todd's son from getting it on with your wife while you're out hunting deer or something and needing to collect his head is a problem that requires solving somehow.

All in all I think male sexuality is easily the most overlooked, understudied, and oversimplified topic which has seen far less progress and research than female sexuality comparatively. My main point here though, is that statistically when we looked these relationships....we are looking at tribes and cultures that simply cannot have enough pedophiles to explain the relationship nor do they have some magical ability to spot homosexuals at an early age.

The LGBT community isn't claiming anything. Native Americans themselves acknowledge that they have always recognized two-spirit people.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
22,560
6,070
64
✟337,508.00
Faith
Pentecostal
If you don't understand what's going on in the colleges, you don't understand what's been going on in anthropology.

Largely, there's been the same anti-western, anti-colonialist, anti-white, anti-capitalist, anti-hetero, anti-christian sentiment running rampant in the field, making wild unproven claims about pre-colonial societies everywhere. Take the two-spirits example....you might be inclined to think that the few examples of such things were commonplace through north America and not limited to literally less than a dozen or so tribes. That's not the case.

Do you understand that? Did you know we're only talking about a handful out of hundreds and hundreds of tribes that accepted the existence of some sort of 3rd gender category in native American cultures? Or did you think it was maybe closer to 50% or 90%?
There's even debate over what the two spirits actually meant? We don't have any real history behind this. We have no idea if they are really talking about transgender people or it they are what that really meant for the people involved.

I am sure the homosexuality, transgenderism has been around for about as long as humanity has existed. The fact that it existed has no bearing on what societies actually thought about it.

You get some cave drawing and claim it means the society loved and accepted homosexuality?

Maybe it was a depiction of a rape. Maybe it was a derogatory drawing.

Anthropology has little knowledge or understanding what the ancients actually thought about these LGBTQ things. We know what Islam thinks.

Sorry, I do not buy any of the malarkey that Africa was filled with homosexuals and transgenders and everyone loved and fully accepted them and their behaviors and perfectly normal and regularly practiced.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
22,560
6,070
64
✟337,508.00
Faith
Pentecostal
The other thing I want to point out is that let just say that some ancient societies did think LGBTQ was perfectly normal and accepted. No one rejected them and they were revererd.

Lets just for arguments sake that Egyptians found homosexuality to be perfectly normal. This is the same group that tortured and enslaved and murdered. They also held other wild beliefs like omens, curses and magic. They had sex slaves. They worshipped animals.

So just because you think a piece of a culture was good doesn't mean they were correct. And I'm not sure that there really is anything in the Egyptian anthropology that says they honored LGBTQ individuals because they were LGBTQ.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,580
11,398
✟437,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps it's time to acknowledge that Western colonialism has it's benefits and the premise of "respecting foreign cultures" is an overrated talking point?

Heresy. I wish I could think of the historian who wrote a book on the upside of colonialism and basically got near universal scorn. This was awhile ago. Ending slavery, raising people out of poverty, raising literacy and education rates....these are all assumed to have been something that would have happened anyway regardless of colonialism.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ralliann
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,580
11,398
✟437,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
There's even debate over what the two spirits actually meant? We don't have any real history behind this. We have no idea if they are really talking about transgender people or it they are what that really meant for the people involved.

It's part of this weird attempt to rewrite history, validate certain groups, and appeal to certain political narratives of the day. Think about the 1619 attempt to "ingrain racism into the fabric of the nation's founding" ....it's pretty wild when you think about it.

Because you're doing it from the most privileged position possible. Other nations simply wouldn't tolerate such a thing. You'd be hanged from your thumbs and have your feet caned or straight up chucked off a roof like a bag of garbage for even trying to write such things in other nations....you'd think that would be a point that's acknowledged but these aren't exactly intellectual giants.


Anthropology has little knowledge or understanding what the ancients actually thought about these LGBTQ things. We know what Islam thinks.

And that really is the thing....because there are multiple nations in Africa with vicious laws against homosexuality, primarily in the northern and eastern regions. They are nearly all majority Islamic nations.

Where was this criticism for the past 20 years? Remember when jihadis were shooting up gay nightclubs in Orlando?

"Well uhhh...you can't criticize Islam, all Muslims aren't like that and blah blah blah".

But suddenly when one African country that's majority Christian says, "we're done with the gay activists and people" suddenly it's all Christianity's fault.

People need to adopt some actual principles instead of just pretending to have them.
 
Upvote 0

Blade

Veteran
Site Supporter
Dec 29, 2002
8,167
3,992
USA
✟630,797.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
:) some that do not believe in Jesus Christ as lord will not understand this. Other countries do much worse against gay people, women, Christians. Some Countries were mostly Christian before? Well leaving that part out makes the rest of the argument mute ;)

Its nice to see Indians being talked about.. raised in all that my Dad was Nez Perce and I can truly say allot said is not true.

What Uganda is doing not sure how thats different then what the USA does. We have I watched it yesterday Children cartoons teaching them just the thought that you want to be a girl or it they he him binary is ok. And you don't have to tell your parents.. and them so much more. Again not knowing Jesus Christ as lord this will seem look ok and true.

What matters is Christ came not to condemn the world but to save it. This is what Christians believe. He loves you no other died for you...He drew you here.. He loves you and no other loves you.. He GOD takes you as you are.. man wont allot of believers wont.. but HE DOES! Loves you
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,580
11,398
✟437,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
The LGBT community isn't claiming anything. Native Americans themselves acknowledge that they have always recognized two-spirit people.

Uh huh...sure.



The term Two-Spirit originated in 1990 by Myra Laramee (Cree) at the Third Annual Inter-tribal Native American, First Nations, Gay and Lesbian American Conference in Winnipeg. It is a translation of “niizh manidoowag” or “two spirits” in the Anishinaabe language.

So introduced by LGBTQ activists at a native American LGBTQ conference.

Edit- in the 1990s.

**Edit- in reference to literally 1 tribe's term.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
16,638
10,465
Earth
✟143,208.00
Country
United States
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Uh huh...sure.



The term Two-Spirit originated in 1990 by Myra Laramee (Cree) at the Third Annual Inter-tribal Native American, First Nations, Gay and Lesbian American Conference in Winnipeg. It is a translation of “niizh manidoowag” or “two spirits” in the Anishinaabe language.

So introduced by LGBTQ activists at a native American LGBTQ conference.

Edit- in the 1990s.

**Edit- in reference to literally 1 tribe's term.
You know nothing John Snow
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Desk trauma
Upvote 0

IceJad

Regular Member
May 23, 2005
1,772
1,044
41
✟100,795.00
Country
Malaysia
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Rubbish. Far more likely the influence of right wing American Christians.
Unfortunately what he said is frighteningly correct. It is not the influence of right wing Americans or Christians. Many countries in Latin America, Asia and Africa do not have a good view on the West period whether right or left what more leftist LGBT agendas. Among themselves they talk how absurd LGBT rights have become in the West. That view is not influenced by right wing Americans since guess what they are hated equally as well for being western. Most in the rest of the non-Western world merely put up with your whims because the west is still dominant. Many hated your western world views and values. You will be surprised that this view is not in the minority but the majority.

So don't say this is a right wing thing. It is not. Not by a long long shot.
 
Upvote 0

IceJad

Regular Member
May 23, 2005
1,772
1,044
41
✟100,795.00
Country
Malaysia
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Let me ask you something...and be honest...


Here's an ethnic map of Africa.


View attachment 329364


Do you have any idea how many of these various groups practice or allowed homosexuality and do you think that the fact your first article has to reach back to ancient Egypt is a good indicator of how few really did?

Actually digging up old history to justify the present day actions is just a comfortable convenient excuse for some people. They are uneased by the notion that a group of people they historically see as the oppressed and subjugated ended up being the same as their former masters. They can't entertain the notion that victimized people can be evil as well. They scramble to excuse said bad actions as influenced by a higher evil namely the evangelists in this case. Most of the time they fall back to colonialism. They think that if left to themselves the Africans (who by the way are majority Christians and Muslims even well before colonialism) will come to the same progressive conclusion as themselves.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,580
11,398
✟437,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Actually digging up old history to justify the present day actions is just a comfortable convenient excuse for some people. They are uneased by the notion that a group of people they historically see as the oppressed and subjugated ended up being the same as their former masters. They can't entertain the notion that victimized people can be evil as well. They scramble to excuse said bad actions as influenced by a higher evil namely the evangelists in this case. Most of the time they fall back to colonialism. They think that if left to themselves the Africans (who by the way are majority Christians and Muslims even well before colonialism) will come to the same progressive conclusion as themselves.

My favorite argument with obvious holes in it was always the "homosexual behavior also occurs in various other species in nature" argument....

Because so does rape.

By far the worst colonialism argument I've ever encountered was when I explained that colonialism had reasons for occurring that had primarily been caused by both internal European conflicts and external pressures posed by Ottomans and various other empires....the response was something like...

"Well they could have just shared knowledge and power with the people they encountered."

Which is paraphrasing of course, but imagine having to point out how stupid that is. "Hey, you know those sailors we funded to find us something profitable? Well good news and bad news.....

Bad news is they returned without anything to show for it. Good news? The people they encountered they taught how to make gunpowder, cannons, taught sailing, shipbuilding, and a bunch of other stuff and now they're sailing around conquering everything. Your ancestors are gonna feel real good about that in about 400 years."
 
  • Haha
Reactions: IceJad
Upvote 0