U.S. Healthcare Ranks Last out of 11 Developed Countries.

Occams Barber

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A new study, by the US based philanthropic group, The Commonwealth Fund, has completed an evaluation of healthcare systems in 11 comparatively wealthy countries; Australia, Canada, France, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the United States.

The study used a range of seventy-two indicators selected in five domains: Care Process, Access, Administrative Efficiency, Equity, and Health Care Outcomes, to measure outcomes for each country.

Key findings:
  • The U.S. ranked last on performance overall and ranked last or near last on the Access, Administrative Efficiency, Equity, and Health Care Outcomes domains.
  • The top-ranked countries overall were the U.K., Australia, and the Netherlands.
  • Based on a broad range of indicators, the U.S. health system is an outlier, spending far more* but falling short of the performance achieved by other high-income countries.
*U.S. Healthcare spending as percentage of GDP is 16.6% compared to UK(9.9%), Netherlands (10.9%)and Australia (9%).
  • The U.S. health care system should look at other countries’ approaches if it wants to achieve an affordable high-performing health care system that serves all Americans.

The report notes that;
The three countries with the best overall health system performance scores have strikingly different health care systems. All three provide universal coverage and access, but do so in different ways, suggesting that high performance can be achieved through a variety of payment and organizational approaches.”

OB
 

High Fidelity

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I'm glad someone's worried about it I guess. For me, adjusting the healthcare system is pretty low on my list of priorities.

...But that's just me.

My guess is you're privileged enough to afford acceptable coverage.

Starvation is seldom a concern for the well-fed.
 
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Occams Barber

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Praise God for my evil socialist health service in the UK!

I have good news and bad news.

The good news - you will live longer than the average American
The bad news - give me time, I'll think of something.

OB
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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The US medical system is very defensive due to medico-legal issues and therefore very expensive.
For instance, a young healty adult coming for a minor surgical procedure requiring Anaesthesia, would likely just get a fingerprick haemoglobin where I am from, or in the UK. In the US, they would likely have a full blood count and renal functions drawn. Based on Evidence-Based Medicine (EBM), it is quite clear that the chances of adverse events are vanishingly small, but in the US, if this occurred, the punitive damages would be substantial. Medicine is forced to react, thus doing many extra and unnecessary procedures according to EBM, to cover themselves from litigation.

Another factor is the profit motive, where hospital administrations require excessive testing and intervention as standard, on an effort to recoup costs for very ill patients from the medical schemes of those who aren't too ill. It balances the system a bit, perhaps. This is much less a factor though, than popularly held.

The big problem with NHS-type systems, is that they need to cut costs constantly. This means staff work excessive hours and the minimum treatments are usually encouraged, even if better but more expensive ones are available. As their budget is susceptible to political posturing instead of need, often they do not expand facilities or staff, but force it to strain under numbers it was not designed for and a tendency not to develop or necessarily employ the latest treatments till their costs come down. This usually only happens once sufficient studies to their efficacy has been done, to make it worthwhile for enough medical systems to order them, which is at the moment usually predicated on those treatments having been rolled out in the US and Japan, and just used in Academia elsewhere.
When properly funded and supported, Government health works quite well, but once the sickness burden is lowered and less obvious, this is one of the first things cut.
 
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Occams Barber

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I'm glad someone's worried about it I guess. For me, adjusting the healthcare system is pretty low on my list of priorities.

...But that's just me.
Hello Landon
I'll be honest. I struggled with how to respond to your post. Words like silly, flippant, stupid, ignorant, selfish, uninformed and ignorant all came to mind but I fought off the urge to respond in kind.
OB
 
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Occams Barber

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The US medical system is very defensive due to medico-legal issues and therefore very expensive.
For instance, a young healty adult coming for a minor surgical procedure requiring Anaesthesia, would likely just get a fingerprick haemoglobin where I am from, or in the UK. In the US, they would likely have a full blood count and renal functions drawn. Based on Evidence-Based Medicine (EBM), it is quite clear that the chances of adverse events are vanishingly small, but in the US, if this occurred, the punitive damages would be substantial. Medicine is forced to react, thus doing many extra and unnecessary procedures according to EBM, to cover themselves from litigation.
Another factor is the profit motive, where hospital administrations require excessive testing and intervention as standard, on an effort to recoup costs for very ill patients from the medical schemes of those who aren't too ill. It balances the system a bit, perhaps. This is much less a factor though, than popularly held.

The big problem with NHS-type systems, is that they need to cut costs constantly. This means staff work excessive hours and the minimum treatments are usually encouraged, even if better but more expensive ones are available. As their budget is susceptible to political posturing instead of need, often they do not expand facilities or staff, but force it to strain under numbers it was not designed for and a tendency not to develop or necessarily employ the latest treatments till their costs come down. This usually only happens once sufficient studies to their efficacy has been done, to make it worthwhile for enough medical systems to order them, which is at the moment usually predicated on those treatments having been rolled out in the US and Japan, and just used in Academia elsewhere.
When properly funded and supported, Government health works quite well, but once the sickness burden is lowered and less obvious, this is one of the first things cut.

If I can cut through the static it appears you're saying that the US system overservices and the NHS (I'm not British) is :
  • Overloaded, to its own detriment
and
  • Conservative about treatment and therefore dependent on the US/Japan for medical advances.
Perhaps you're right on both counts. I have no idea.

But .. how does it relate to this report?
OB
 
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My guess is you're privileged enough to afford acceptable coverage.

Starvation is seldom a concern for the well-fed.

Or maybe he has more pressing concerns in his life at this moment.
Or maybe he works hard, takes care of himself, lives responsibly and provides for his family.
 
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Nithavela

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Or maybe he has more pressing concerns in his life at this moment.
Or maybe he works hard, takes care of himself, lives responsibly and provides for his family.
Concerning health care, it's easy to live within your means when you follow two rules:

1: Don't get sick.
2: Die quickly.
 
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If I can cut through the static it appears you're saying that the US system overservices and the NHS (I'm not British) is :
  • Overloaded, to its own detriment
and
  • Conservative about treatment and therefore dependent on the US/Japan for medical advances.
Perhaps you're right on both counts. I have no idea.

But .. how does it relate to this report?
OB

The report measured Care Process, Access, Administrative Efficiency, Equity, and Health Care Outcomes.

A system with excessive procedures and safeguards will by nature have:
1.More bureaucratic hassles, thus decreased Administrative Efficiency.
2. Will extend hospital stays and various departmentments visited during an admission, limiting Access to others for those beds or services.
3. More procedures means more chance for adverse events, thus impacting health care outcomes.

The US system is profit driven, privatised by nature, so of course equity will be strained. Procedures will be determined by the market.

Care process is a weird variable. I do not know how they determine it. It seems a mix of clinical outcomes, screening and patient satisfaction, so has a lot of overlap with the others.

Regardless, my point is that the US system has serious flaws, but these are inherently those of their medical model. The state-run health care systems also have serious flaws, but more profit-driven systems prop them up to a lesser or greater extent. It is a mixed bag, there is no really acceptable medical system.

Poor countries stress preventative medicine - trying to stop illness before their expensive consequences arise. They thus stress breast-feeding initiatives, immunisations, lifestyle modification in chronic illnesses like Diabetes or Hypertension, etc. This is cost effective, but fairly ineffectual as it requires people to take responsibility for their own health. The US seems to also employ preventative medicine in a much more systematic manner than the others, based on that report, with better mammography screening and so forth. This is then offset by excessive interventions later, but negative outcomes that are prevented before admission, seldom end up in medical statistics. The US life expectancy is not that far off those of these other countries, especcially when we take the US deleterious diet and obesity epidemic into account.
The US system, as it is propped up by money, is also far more robust, than the fragile state-run services - dependant on the vagaries of state expenditure.
One must keep a nuanced understanding. Both systems of health care have strengths and weaknesses, that are often complementary to one another. Government systems try and cut waste, so invest in studies of the effect of minimal intervention. To take an example, in Orthopaedics, the US operates excessively, trying to correct angulation of fractures that would be deemed acceptable elsewhere. By doing so, they created better systems of locking screws and often outcomes than was deemed possible. On the other hand, this knowledge came from more invasive and quantifiably more operations than other countries' would have performed. This then acts as a feedback to both, based on medical literature, with the US exhuberence being reined in over time and the others' reticence being overcome somewhat.

The lack of full medical coverage in the US is a bit of a worrying matter, though, but often State run systems get overutilised and have constant money woes - such as the UK's NHS. More patients strengthen the US system by pumping money into it, but it merely weakens the state-run ones in the long run. Unfortunately, the world population seems to be climbing and populations are ageing rapidly, which is already making state-run systems struggle - as even Medicaid and Medicare is in the US. Either we need massive public investment in health care, which I don't expect nor think affordable quite frankly, or some mixed public/private system is required.
 
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Occams Barber

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The report measured Care Process, Access, Administrative Efficiency, Equity, and Health Care Outcomes.

A system with excessive procedures and safeguards will by nature have:
1.More bureaucratic hassles, thus decreased Administrative Efficiency.
2. Will extend hospital stays and various departmentments visited during an admission, limiting Access to others for those beds or services.
3. More procedures means more chance for adverse events, thus impacting health care outcomes.

The US system is profit driven, privatised by nature, so of course equity will be strained. Procedures will be determined by the market.

Care process is a weird variable. I do not know how they determine it. It seems a mix of clinical outcomes, screening and patient satisfaction, so has a lot of overlap with the others.

Regardless, my point is that the US system has serious flaws, but these are inherently those of their medical model. The state-run health care systems also have serious flaws, but more profit-driven systems prop them up to a lesser or greater extent. It is a mixed bag, there is no really acceptable medical system.

Poor countries stress preventative medicine - trying to stop illness before their expensive consequences arise. They thus stress breast-feeding initiatives, immunisations, lifestyle modification in chronic illnesses like Diabetes or Hypertension, etc. This is cost effective, but fairly ineffectual as it requires people to take responsibility for their own health. The US seems to also employ preventative medicine in a much more systematic manner than the others, based on that report, with better mammography screening and so forth. This is then offset by excessive interventions later, but negative outcomes that are prevented before admission, seldom end up in medical statistics. The US life expectancy is not that far off those of these other countries, especcially when we take the US deleterious diet and obesity epidemic into account.
The US system, as it is propped up by money, is also far more robust, than the fragile state-run services - dependant on the vagaries of state expenditure.
One must keep a nuanced understanding. Both systems of health care have strengths and weaknesses, that are often complementary to one another. Government systems try and cut waste, so invest in studies of the effect of minimal intervention. To take an example, in Orthopaedics, the US operates excessively, trying to correct angulation of fractures that would be deemed acceptable elsewhere. By doing so, they created better systems of locking screws and often outcomes than was deemed possible. On the other hand, this knowledge came from more invasive and quantifiably more operations than other countries' would have performed. This then acts as a feedback to both, based on medical literature, with the US exuberance being reined in over time and the others' reticence being overcome somewhat.

The lack of full medical coverage in the US is a bit of a worrying matter, though, but often State run systems get overutilised and have constant money woes - such as the UK's NHS. More patients strengthen the US system by pumping money into it, but it merely weakens the state-run ones in the long run. Unfortunately, the world population seems to be climbing and populations are ageing rapidly, which is already making state-run systems struggle - as even Medicaid and Medicare is in the US. Either we need massive public investment in health care, which I don't expect nor think affordable quite frankly, or some mixed public/private system is required.

While I appreciate your rundown of the NHS vs America I think you are missing the point and moving off onto an ideological tangent. The report does not claim that any system is perfect. What it does say is that 10 countries have a healthcare system with an overall better healthcare outcome when compared to the U.S.
If we look at financial 'fragility' then look no further than the current legislative moves in the US. Patients may well maintain the system by 'pumping money into it' but those without the money to pump are going to be in a deal of trouble. It is far more than a 'bit of a worrying matter'. It solves the demand problem by restricting supply to those who can afford it.

I'm amazed that you consider preventative medicine the exclusive province of 'poor' countries. My own country is apparently a world leader in this and - yes- it does work.

The main issue raised in the report is the lack of universal coverage in the U.S. If I read you correctly your solution is to simply accept the status quo because we're all ageing. The report is quite open in pointing out that the three best countries have taken different approaches to funding and that there is more than one way of skinning the healthcare cat.
OB
 
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While I appreciate your rundown of the NHS vs America I think you are missing the point and moving off onto an ideological tangent. The report does not claim that any system is perfect. What it does say is that 10 countries have a healthcare system with an overall better healthcare outcome when compared to the U.S.
If we look at financial 'fragility' then look no further than the current legislative moves in the US. Patients may well maintain the system by 'pumping money into it' but those without the money to pump are going to be in a deal of trouble. It is far more than a 'bit of a worrying matter'. It solves the demand problem by restricting supply to those who can afford it.

I'm amazed that you consider preventative medicine the exclusive province of 'poor' countries. My own country is apparently a world leader in this and - yes- it does work.

The main issue raised in the report is the lack of universal coverage in the U.S. If I read you correctly your solution is to simply accept the status quo because we're all ageing. The report is quite open in pointing out that the three best countries have taken different approaches to funding and that there is more than one way of skinning the healthcare cat.
OB
I said poor countries stress preventative medicine more than interventionist, not that it is their exclusive province. Please read what I wrote. The report itself mentions how the US does this somewhat better with respect to certain fields like mammography.

My point is that the factors and manner they are judged in the report, by nature favours state-run systems and a lot of their criteria are very ambigious. I think the writers of this report framed it in such a manner that it places private systems at a disadvantage. I don't think its "three best countries" are anything of the sort, and their health care systems are actually dependant on more interventionist systems like the US or Japan, that allows them to balance their own. I don't think the US system is very good. I would never work in it myself, but there are inherent flaws to public health as well - especcially its susceptibility to budgetary constraints and short-sighted political aims. In the US, the latter impacts the health insurance and indirectly the medical system, not the system itself, as UK austerity has. As stated before, life expectancy is not markedly off between any of these countries, so to label one 'better' than another, by necessity requires more ambivalent criteria, as has been employed. The facts are not so clear cut at all, therefore.

The report's 'healthcare outcomes' is not done by EBM criteria of morbidity and mortality. It is clear this was done by sociologists and not by doctors. I just think a little understanding and nuance should be had. All human systems are flawed and especcially Health Care, of which I am intimately aware. I have no idealogical axe to grind, I am merely a cog in this machine, so I can see the foolishness of both sides.
 
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Or maybe he has more pressing concerns in his life at this moment.
Or maybe he works hard, takes care of himself, lives responsibly and provides for his family.

Which would be great if there were both an abundance of not just jobs, but adequately paid jobs/jobs with benefits that don't exploit the worker.

Alas, that is not America as it has stood recently, currently or any time in the future.

Oh and yeah, sucks to be someone that can't provide or has no one to provide for them.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Unrestricted free market healthcare lobbyist says:

0302_rich_guy_inside_small.jpg


"You wouldn't want the government telling the hospital that $3000 for a CT scan is unacceptable, that would be socialism!...and death panels...and making you pay for someone else...and 9/11...and freedom"
 
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I'm glad someone's worried about it I guess. For me, adjusting the healthcare system is pretty low on my list of priorities.

...But that's just me.

Then presumably you and your children have been gifted with health and you're not one of the millions of Americans in catastrophic debt because of exorbitant medical bills. That's one of the leading causes of bankruptcy in our country. If you'd ever had to fear not being able to pay the mortgage because of your child's hospital expenses, or contemplated going the medical tourism route and getting cancer treatment in Tijuana for a fraction of the cost, or deliberated not obtaining necessary medical care for yourself because you were afraid to burden your family financially, then it would probably rank higher on your list of priorities.
 
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Landon Caeli

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I willing to bet that 90% people here railing against socialism doesn't know what socialism means anyway.

Socialism can't really work properly with any kind of competition -which is why Europe keeps railing against the U.S. on this.

...Don't believe me? Then run a socialist based currency alongside a free market one in any nation. Free market eats socialism instantly. They literally CANNOT exist alongside one another.

I dare anyone to try it.
 
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Free market eats socialism instantly.

In some sectors/markets...primarily, where the consumer has the choice to simply not use/buy the good/service at all until all competitors drop their prices.

The healthcare markets are an example of where it doesn't work.

It's not like going to buy a new TV and saying "wow, Samsung and Sony are both charging way too much...I'll just wait for 3-6 months and the prices will come down".

When you need healthcare services, the following options are not available to the consumer: (the options that make free markets thrive)
- Lots of competitors within a small region
- Luxury of waiting for months for competitors to drop their prices
- Easy access to all of the competitors


Usually a very simple question that can help identify sectors where unrestricted free-markets can work (or can't work):

If every single competitor in a sector decided to price gouge simultaneously, would the industry survive?
If the answer is 'yes', then it's not a market that's well suited to be an unrestricted free market.
 
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