Tyndale and defying the Pope

[LittleLambofJesus]

Should we ignore any claims from a Catholic website, and embrace any claims made by anyone pro-Tyndale? Is that the rule?

Not at all!
As your first Pope stated here

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all the letters speaking in them about these-things in which is difficult-to-understand, who-any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rests of Writings toward the own of them destruction

 

[heritage36]

Should we ignore any claims from a Catholic website, and embrace any claims made by anyone pro-Tyndale? Is that the rule? Or should be examine claims based on their own merit?

I wouldn't say so at all, but you would probably have to listen to someone pro-tyndale also if you are going to listen to pro-catholic opinions and still want to form an unbiased opinion. I don't consider myself pro either side, as I am not catholic and I only recently learned anything about tyndale.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I wouldn't say so at all, but you would probably have to listen to someone pro-tyndale also if you are going to listen to pro-catholic opinions and still want to form an unbiased opinion. I don't consider myself pro either side, as I am not catholic and I only recently learned anything about tyndale.

His bro Luther came up with a few doozies himself

http://www.christianforums.com/t7495089-4/#post55591246
Luther and the Puddle

 

[ebia]

I disagree. I think the word Church encompasses all those things. You ever read the vast Lumen Gentium on the dimensions of the Church (I know you've read other stuff like Spe Salvi)? Perhaps Catholics have a more dynamic understanding of the word "Church" that more closely resembles ekklesia.

At it's very best, since about Vatican II, to those who have read and taken in Lumen Gentium and prefereably some other good Catholic ecclessiology like Avery Dulles it might carry roughly the right set of connotations - but most of those people would know what the underlying greek word was and something of how it operates anyway.

For your average person on the street of whatever tradition, or for a lot of older thinking, much less likely.

But would you say there is a better English word to use for ekklesia?

There are words that carry a different subset of the right connotations. Not better overall, just different. Sometimes people need their thinking stirred up, sometimes they don't.

 

[ebia]

I think the obvious suggestion is that Tyndale believed that particular clergyman to be so uneducated that even an illiterate plow driver could understand more of the Scriptures.

It was, in a word, Hyperbole.

Like a lot of hyperbole it has a substantial point - a lot of English clergy at that time were very ill-educated.

 

[ebia]

ekklesia=outcalled, outpositioned. That is about the only english words that it translates to well I can think of off-hand.

That's the etymology of the word. They are barely real English words, let alone capable of bringing all the echos that ekklesia would have brought. Etymology is interesting, but it doesn't tell you what a word means.

 

[ebia]

Personally, I think the words lack because they do not have theological connotations the way the word "church" does. Our government, corporations, rock concert fans, unions, etc... congregate and assemble.

Ecclesia isn't just a theological word though. It's always a problem tendency for the theological jargon of our words to take over so that we loose the other nuances. The bible, on the whole, isn't written in theological jargon - or, at least, not in our theological jargon.

 

[MrPolo]

There are words that carry a different subset of the right connotations. Not better overall, just different. Sometimes people need their thinking stirred up, sometimes they don't.

Consider Matthew 16:18 where it says: "I will build my church."

Of the 20 translations (19 of which are Protestant translations) at Bible.cc's website, 17 of them use the word "church" there. Should they be criticized for doing so?

 

[heritage36]

Not really, I wasn't saying it is always a horrible translation, I was just saying it is thrown in a few times when it doesn't need to be, because they want the word church in there as often as possible. As we several people said, there isn't really a perfect word to translate it to, which it probably should be done on context usually, but instead of discerning what the context would dictate, they just put "church" every time.

 

[ebia]

Consider Matthew 16:18 where it says: "I will build my church."

Of the 20 translations (19 of which are Protestant translations) at Bible.cc's website, 17 of them use the word "church" there. Should they be criticized for doing so?

I wasn't suggesting they shoould be, nor that "church" was an inappropriate translation. Just drawing our attention to its limitations.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Here is a history of the term "religion" from etymonline.com.

Thanks for the link. However, my question was not related to the etymology of "religion" which this link nicely provides, but the usage of the adjective "religious" as a noun. I would appreciate any information you might be able to find on it.

Thanks again.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Bushido216 I think the obvious suggestion is that Tyndale believed that particular clergyman to be so uneducated that even an illiterate plow driver could understand more of the Scriptures.
It was, in a word, Hyperbole.

Like a lot of hyperbole it has a substantial point - a lot of English clergy at that time were very ill-educated.

Thank you ebia.
What about Acts 4:13 where those looking at the Apostles Peter and John and saying they were "un-lettered"

Acts 4:13 Observing yet the of the Peter boldness and John and grasping that men illiterate/unlettered/agrammatoi <62> they are and ordinary, they marvelled.
They knew part/both of them, that to the Jesus they were.

Also, could you please also vote in my poll? Thank you

[I noticed there are now 4 votes from members who say Tyndale was a heretic.]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7356783-2/#post51276720
The One Reading.....

 

[MrPolo]

Thanks for the link. However, my question was not related to the etymology of "religion" which this link nicely provides, but the usage of the adjective "religious" as a noun. I would appreciate any information you might be able to find on it.

Thanks again.

It seems somewhat interchangeable with the idea of "people in religious life." See Catechism #925-927. There's also the Vatican II doc Perfectae Caritatis on Religious Life. It's all I can think of in a very brief search off the top of my head.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It seems somewhat interchangeable with the idea of "people in religious life." See Catechism #925-927. There's also the Vatican II doc Perfectae Caritatis on Religious Life. It's all I can think of in a very brief search off the top of my head.

Hi MrPolo.
This topic isn't on the RC's Catechism, but on Tyndale
You and other RCs are welcome to make a thread on it if you wish.
Also, could you please vote? Thanks

 

[bbbbbbb]

It seems somewhat interchangeable with the idea of "people in religious life." See Catechism #925-927. There's also the Vatican II doc Perfectae Caritatis on Religious Life. It's all I can think of in a very brief search off the top of my head.

Yes, thank you. In those two documents religious is used primarily as an adjective and does not appear as a noun until well into the documents at which time it seems to be a type of shorthand for religious (members or people). Do you think this is a result of translation difficulties from Latin to English or just a colloquialism common to Catholicism in general? It does seem to be of relatively recent origin, at least as far as I have observed it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hi MrPolo.
This topic isn't on the RC's Catechism, but on Tyndale
You and other RCs are welcome to make a thread on it if you wish.
Also, could you please vote? Thanks

So sorry to have derailed the discussion. I should start another thread on it. Mr. Polo was just responding to my inquiry. I agree, however, that Mr. Polo should vote on the issue at hand - William Tyndale.

On the topic, if Tyndale's translation of the Bible was so utterly flawed and inferior, why did the Catholic Church take so much of its sweet time before producing one of their own?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus *snip*
Hi MrPolo.
This topic isn't on the RC's Catechism, but on Tyndale

So sorry to have derailed the discussion. I should start another thread on it. Mr. Polo was just responding to my inquiry. I agree, however, that Mr. Polo should vote on the issue at hand - William Tyndale.

On the topic, if Tyndale's translation of the Bible was so utterly flawed and inferior, why did the Catholic Church take so much of its sweet time before producing one of their own?

There is a thread I started some time back on the RCs Catechism if you would like to bump it up

http://www.christianforums.com/t7411882/
Non-Catholic's view of RC Catechism

 

[bbbbbbb]

There is a thread I started some time back on the RCs Catechism if you would like to bump it up

http://www.christianforums.com/t7411882/
Non-Catholic's view of RC Catechism

Done! Thanks. I hope the discussion revives.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Done! Thanks. I hope the discussion revives.

Thks!
I want to keep my bro and patron Saint W. Tyndale alive on this thread

 

[ebia]

Thank you ebia.
What about Acts 4:13 where those looking at the Apostles Peter and John and saying they were "un-lettered"

Acts 4:13 Observing yet the of the Peter boldness and John and grasping that men illiterate/unlettered/agrammatoi <62> they are and ordinary, they marvelled.
They knew part/both of them, that to the Jesus they were.

Acts doesn't hold up poor education as a good thing, but comments that peopel were amazed at what was coming from these country bumpkins.

Also, could you please also vote in my poll? Thank you

None of the options was satisfactory.