Tyndale and defying the Pope

[ebia]

What are some connotations the word "Church" is lacking?

More general 'secular' meanings of the word as an assembly. LXX connections to the word usually translated as the congregation in the Old Testament... The word doesn't have implications of a building not of something as institutional as "the church" tends to connote.

 

[tadoflamb]

That quote was made by those who opposed what Tyndale was doing. If you have a look at what they meant by "error" it's any way of expressing something that Thomas More and the Bishop of London didn't like because it didn't reinforce the Catholic perspective. So, for example, translating presbyter as elder instead of priest counted as an "error".

If you can get past the spelling Tyndale's translation is very readable still.


Of course not. Tyndale's bishop didn't want it translated at all, and if it were to be translated wanted it done in such a way as to support the Catholic position. He didn't think Tyndale would do that, and was probably right.

but and yf I tarie longe yt then thou mayst yet have knowledge how thou oughtest to behave thy silfe in the housse of God which is the congregacion of the livinge God the pillar and grounde of trueth.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/tyndale/1ti.txt

I can see why the bishop wouldn't want Tyndale translating the Sacred Scriptures. His translation betrays his theological agenda as. All this proves to me is that the Sacred Scriptures need a guardian and an authentic interpretter. I mean, given the number of translations available to us today, where does it end? Anyone can skew the Word to whatever end they please.

 

[sunlover1]

That quote was made by those who opposed what Tyndale was doing. If you have a look at what they meant by "error" it's any way of expressing something that Thomas More and the Bishop of London didn't like because it didn't reinforce the Catholic perspective. So, for example, translating presbyter as elder instead of priest counted as an "error".

If you can get past the spelling Tyndale's translation is very readable still.


Of course not. Tyndale's bishop didn't want it translated at all, and if it were to be translated wanted it done in such a way as to support the Catholic position. He didn't think Tyndale would do that, and was probably right.

The reality, or course, is that there is no word in English that captures the same range of connotations as Ekklesia in the original.

Thanks for the 'rest of the story' as it were.
Glad you post here..

.... All this proves to me is that the Sacred Scriptures need a guardian and an authentic interpretter. I mean, given the number of translations available to us today, where does it end? Anyone can skew the Word to whatever end they please.

I think this has been tried but didn't work out so well.
Here's one RC's view:
Chestertonrules:
Jesus promised that he would be with his Church always and that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all Truth.
The bible is protected by this promise because it is a product of the Church.

.

 

[ebia]

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/tyndale/1ti.txt

I can see why the bishop wouldn't want Tyndale translating the Sacred Scriptures. His translation betrays his theological agenda as.

There is no completely neutral ground in translation, but Tyndale is very close to what the Greek means on the whole, especially given that his actual translation came at the end of or a process of trying to work within the church when his patience had run out. The vast majority of Thomas More and the Bishop of London's objections to his translation would be laughed at by any modern translator, including those responsible for the Catholic translations and are meanings of the words openly acknowledged by Catholic scholars from Benedict downwards.

Sure, he had an agenda - the reform of an English Church in much of which substantial teaching and knowledge of scripture had all but disappeared. The agenda of those who opposed him is revealed clearly in their objections to his translation.

All this proves to me is that the Sacred Scriptures need a guardian and an authentic interpretter. I mean, given the number of translations available to us today, where does it end? Anyone can skew the Word to whatever end they please.

If the church has to manipulate scripture to support itself then .

 

[MrPolo]

More general 'secular' meanings of the word as an assembly. LXX connections to the word usually translated as the congregation in the Old Testament...

I disagree. I think the word Church encompasses all those things. You ever read the vast Lumen Gentium on the dimensions of the Church (I know you've read other stuff like Spe Salvi)? Perhaps Catholics have a more dynamic understanding of the word "Church" that more closely resembles ekklesia.

But would you say there is a better English word to use for ekklesia?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I disagree. I think the word Church encompasses all those things. You ever read the vast Lumen Gentium on the dimensions of the Church (I know you've read other stuff like Spe Salvi)? Perhaps Catholics have a more dynamic understanding of the word "Church" that more closely resembles ekklesia.

But would you say there is a better English word to use for ekklesia?

How about Congregation or Assembly. How do the Jews use that word?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Acts 7:30 And of being filled years, forty, was seen to him in the wilderness of the mount Sinai a messenger of Lord, in a Flame of fire of a bush 38 This is the one-becoming in the Assembly/Out-Called/ekklhsia <1577> in the wilderness with the Messenger the one speaking to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers who receives oracles/words, living, to give to us.
[Luke 16:24]

 

[heritage36]

ekklesia=outcalled, outpositioned. That is about the only english words that it translates to well I can think of off-hand.

 

[MrPolo]

ekklesia=outcalled, outpositioned. That is about the only english words that it translates to well I can think of off-hand.

The only definition of "outcall" at Dictionary.com is to make a higher poker bid. Outposition isn't there, but I can't help but think of players fighting for a rebound.

 

[MrPolo]

How about Congregation or Assembly.

Personally, I think the words lack because they do not have theological connotations the way the word "church" does. Our government, corporations, rock concert fans, unions, etc... congregate and assemble.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Personally, I think the words lack because they do not have theological connotations the way the word "church" does. Our government, corporations, rock concert fans, unions, etc... congregate and assemble.

If that is so, why does CF elect to use "Christian Communities" instead of "Churches"

http://www.christianforums.com/f942/
Christian Communities

http://www.christianforums.com/t7230052-22/#post46816576
Apparently --Catholics are now a "Denomination"

 

[MrPolo]

If that is so, why does CF elect to use "Christian Communities" instead of "Churches"

If I was the designer of this site, I'd answer you. But like I said, I think "church" is more complete than "assembly".

 

[Etsi]

I didn't vote as I don't have a dog in the fight. But I did find "the other side" of the story here: Tyndale's Heresy (This Rock: December 2002) It rounds out the picture

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I didn't vote as I don't have a dog in the fight. But I did find "the other side" of the story here: Tyndale's Heresy (This Rock: December 2002) It rounds out the picture

Ahhh.....
I have never read that NIV version.

snip from site:

The new edition of the New International Version (NIV) Bible came out this year.
Why is it newsworthy? Because this is the "Inclusive Language Edition," and conservative Protestants everywhere are up in arms. I read of the NIV Inclusive Language Edition while visiting family in Greenville, South Carolina...............

I myself prefer the NIV Chronological version if one likes the original NIV [which I do btw ehehe]

Amazon.com: The One Year Chronological Bible [NIV] (9780842350907): Tyndale: Books

 

[heritage36]

I didn't vote as I don't have a dog in the fight. But I did find "the other side" of the story here: Tyndale's Heresy (This Rock: December 2002) It rounds out the picture

Wasn't that posted earlier in this thread? Maybe I read it on my own, but I thought I got that link here. That is as I noted previously, written on a catholic based website, so its hard not to believe they would have bias against Tyndale.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Never mind....I just noticed that was a RC site.....

Catholic Answers

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0212fea3.asp

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Wasn't that posted earlier in this thread? Maybe I read it on my own, but I thought I got that link here. That is as I noted previously, written on a catholic based website, so its hard not to believe they would have bias against Tyndale.

Yeah, I noticed that also

 

[Etsi]

Wasn't that posted earlier in this thread? Maybe I read it on my own, but I thought I got that link here. That is as I noted previously, written on a catholic based website, so its hard not to believe they would have bias against Tyndale.

There is just as much bias on Protestant sites. Like I said, get BOTH sides of the story It offers enough information that one could look up the edicts if they so chose to for verification.

I also did not read every page of this thread. Sorry, but I did not come in at the beginning and don't have that kind of time.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There is just as much bias on Protestant sites. Like I said, get BOTH sides of the story It offers enough information that one could look up the edicts if they so chose to for verification.

I also did not read every page of this thread. Sorry, but I did not come in at the beginning and don't have that kind of time.

Can we please keep this on the topic of Tyndale for now? Thanks

Another intersting thing Tynale exclaimed was "the boy behind the plow". What do others here think he meant by that

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/william-tyndale.html

*snip*

A clergyman hopelessly entrenched in Roman Catholic dogma once taunted Tyndale with the statement, &#8220;We are better to be without God&#8217;s laws than the Pope&#8217;s&#8221;.
Tyndale was infuriated by such Roman Catholic heresies, and he replied, &#8220;I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause the boy that drives the plow to know more of the scriptures than you!&#8221;

 

[Bushido216]

I think the obvious suggestion is that Tyndale believed that particular clergyman to be so uneducated that even an illiterate plow driver could understand more of the Scriptures.

It was, in a word, Hyperbole.

 

[MrPolo]

That is as I noted previously, written on a catholic based website, so its hard not to believe they would have bias against Tyndale.

Should we ignore any claims from a Catholic website, and embrace any claims made by anyone pro-Tyndale? Is that the rule? Or should be examine claims based on their own merit?