Two Wittnesses

[theseed]

I would not want to return to earth in its last stages of history...when the tribulations are the worse this world has even seen, and God has to shorten it or their would be no one saved, not even the elect. GOd would not sent two that have spent so much time with Him in heaven back until this place is cleaned up. Therefore I prayerfully submit that the spirit in which those two preached, will again be given unto two who will give the last call for salvation to this old world.

For the sake of argument, they might not have a choice, they would come because God would send them, however, we read no where that Enoch would return, do we?

You might not want the job, but if God sent you, would you not go?

 

[TasManOfGod]

It is interesting that from Rev ch 11 the "two witnesses" are considered as individuals (by a majority of commentaries) whereas for ch12 it has not been considered that the "woman" is an individual. Would not a degree of consistency be expected here?

 

[visionary]

woman... there are two in Revelation and one of them is in Rev 12...and by the disciption...you know that this is the faith that bears Jesus and is hunted down by Satan....The other is in Rev 17 and "the angel said unto me, wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns......verse 18 "and the woman which thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." which is of another faith.

By interpretation....the woman is symbolic and by the the angel who discribes the mystery explains who they are. By their actions are we to know who is symbolically representated here in Revelation.

By the same token the two olive trees and the two candlesticks which are the two witnesses which represent the character in the spirit of the Lord warn the world of the last day events. Those that have gone before have been Moses, Elijah, and others who in the face of overwhelming odds, stood before the Pharoah/King of Babylon/Baal worshippers, and with power from on High challenged the evil spirits of their day. We see that the son of perdition is what the two witnesses go up against in the last day and based upon the prophecies, we look forward to people of God to stand up in the breach. We expect that there will be two that stand out and are beheaded for it, and their dead bodies shall lie in the street and be ressurrected on the third day.

 

[TheScottsMen]

woman... there are two in Revelation and one of them is in Rev 12...and by the disciption...you know that this is the faith that bears Jesus and is hunted down by Satan....The other is in Rev 17 and "the angel said unto me, wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns......verse 18 "and the woman which thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." which is of another faith.

By interpretation....the woman is symbolic and by the the angel who discribes the mystery explains who they are. By their actions are we to know who is symbolically representated here in Revelation.

By the same token the two olive trees and the two candlesticks which are the two witnesses which represent the character in the spirit of the Lord warn the world of the last day events. Those that have gone before have been Moses, Elijah, and others who in the face of overwhelming odds, stood before the Pharoah/King of Babylon/Baal worshippers, and with power from on High challenged the evil spirits of their day. We see that the son of perdition is what the two witnesses go up against in the last day and based upon the prophecies, we look forward to people of God to stand up in the breach. We expect that there will be two that stand out and are beheaded for it, and their dead bodies shall lie in the street and be ressurrected on the third day.

Amen

 

[visionary]

Can you imagine what this will do to the Jewish people in Jerusalem, with two witnesses, who in the power of Elijah and Moses (both challenged the gods that were in control of the minds of the people) and have the power to smite the earth with ALL PLAGUES, AS OFTEN AS THEY WILL....cracking the barrier that has kept the two faith apart, that which is the Torah and Yeshua and re-uniting the nation of Israel with the believers in the last round-up.

Imagine for a moment, you are in Jerusalem, two witnesses are prophesing and are doing the mighty works of Elijah and Moses, preparing the way for the true King, Yeshua to come. Imagine their surprise that these two testify to the testimony of Yeshua and the Torah....Maybe at this time, the ark of the covenant is found by the two witnesses, to help with truth in the minds of all the world and the nation of Israel.

With God fighting the battle against this Imitation of Yeshua, that son of perdition, that is fooling the world, trying to convince the world that he belongs on the throne in Jerusalem, these two witnesses have been called forward to stand in the gap.

Two witnesses with the power from on High to meet the challenge of such a mighty evil angel, who has the power do kill ten thousand with the sweep of His hand, travels at the speed of lightening, has brightness instead of holiness, and can quote scripture for His own purposes.

How is that for a climax to world history, church traditions, and fulfillment to prophecy?

 

[TasManOfGod]

visionary
If I said to you "there is a witness on earth today taking God's word to the people" Who do you think that I would be talking about - Billy Graham, the Pope Benny Hinn who would that witness be?

 

[visionary]

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

As far as Billy Graham can witness to truth, is as far as he can be a witness...., but what is required of these two witnesses, is not pleasing to man, will bring on division, and will infuriate churches worldwide, and will open the door to the true seeker of truth so that can become free from the cages of understandings that they and their families have been held in under over the milliniums. We are talking about a revelation so mind blowing, so soul searching awaking, that it comes across like Moses in the Pharoah's court, like Elijah before the baal priests, like Jesus in the temple.

The preaching of the dreadful day, is omen of what is to come, it is the harbengar of the soon to come to pass and it is not nice. To be able to "smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will" means that they are getting tough, they are playing rough, and the gloves have come off. This is very serious business the two witnesses are doing. They also are given 42 months, three and 1/2 years to accomplish the task before they are killed. So when they appear on the human radar, they are coming out swinging, and it will be a bloody fight. Scathing rebukes will coming out of their mouths. They will hold nothing back. They are to make the way straight. They know how narrow it is and they are going to proclaim it much to the dismay of the world.

 

[TasManOfGod]

what is required of these two witnesses, is not pleasing to man,

That's why I included Benny Hinn

 

[visionary]

That's why I included Benny Hinn

so that was what the sly smile is about..... ...for a second I thought you might be serious....but I believe you are too smart for that.
Visionary

 

[TasManOfGod]

My point is that God's witness today is the Church. You say that the devil will cause great problems in these days to come. True but wont this be the same devil that we have to deal with today. Does he not operate all over the world as he will in the days of the "two witnesses" as the scriptures say? What will make him so much more difficult to deal with in days to come than he does now. Is God going to give him more power? To me it is beyond compehension that two people, no matter what spiritual condition they may be in, have the ways and means of dealing with the works of darkness all over the world. Isn't this even beyond what Jesus could do in Jerusalem prior to the crucifixion
No - the witnesses have to be groups of people - two of His covenant peoples that He has restored since He had taken others out of the way at that time

 

[visionary]

The term son of perdition....is set aside for Satan himself. This has been what he has wanted from the beginning. The "I wills" in Isaiah. That is the pinacle of Satan's career. That is also the climax of earth's history. What we have experienced so far in the spiritual battle, is nothing compared to what it will be when "they had a king over them which is the angel of the bottomless pit,"Rev 9:11.

 

[theseed]

The term son of perdition....is set aside for Satan himself. This has been what he has wanted from the beginning. The "I wills" in Isaiah. That is the pinacle of Satan's career. That is also the climax of earth's history. What we have experienced so far in the spiritual battle, is nothing compared to what it will be when "they had a king over them which is the angel of the bottomless pit,"Rev 9:11.

Judas was called the son of perdition.

 

[visionary]

Good example.....such a traitor....just like Satan will be charged with treason.

 

[visionary]

I just found another verse that indicates that the people pick up on the spirit of Moses in taking them out of the land of Egypt (sin).


Revelation 15
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.These people are all of the last days to get over the beast, his image and his mark. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. These have experienced the seals and trumpets of God and have repented.5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: They see the Torah in Heaven in the Temple.

 

[theseed]

perdition

\Per*di"tion\, n. [F., fr. L. perditio, fr. perdere, perditum, to ruin, to lose; per (cf. Skr. par[=a] away) + -dere (only in comp.) to put; akin to Gr. ?, E. do. See Do.] 1. Entire loss; utter destruction; ruin; esp., the utter loss of the soul, or of final happiness in a future state; future misery or eternal death.

The mere perdition of the Turkish fleet. --Shak.

If we reject the truth, we seal our own perdition. --J. M. Mason.

2. Loss of diminution. [Obs.] --Shak.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc

 

[blessed2]

Why not... because I understand it differently....

I understand that. What I was saying "why not" too was this statement you made.

GOd would not send two...

you said ....because

.... that have spent so much time with Him in heaven back .

My point was not to contend your understanding of the prophecy but rather a question
as too why would he not send these two.....He sent His own son.
He did not wait until...

until this place is cleaned up

He sent Him to clean it up.

I really don't know enough about it to be able to inject any info on the topic itself.
I'm really just reading and learning. When I saw your post, I was curious as to "why not".

 

[visionary]

John the Baprist was the Elijah of the first coming, the question you asked is the same one they asked Yeshua regarding Elijah is John and Yeshua cleared the matter up then with them. I see, and understand the spirit of Elijah in another person for the dreadful part of prophecy as John the Baptist was the spirit of Elijah for the first coming.

 

[IsraelSarah]

from Revelation 11 and Zechariah 4 -John3 and Matthew11,17 Mark 10
and Proverbs 30

the two olive trees are not any of the old testament prophets or witnesses Scriptural proof: John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but "He" that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven" this scripture uses "He" meaning exclusively that He is the only one that will come down from heaven...(Enoch and Elijah ascended but remember Paul talks about a third heaven) they were ascended but not to the same place Jesus ascended Proverbs 30:3,4 "I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the Holy One .Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is His name, and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell?..." This verse speaks of things the HOLY ONE has or only ever will/could do.

the two witnesses are not the Word and Spirit or two angels (none of which can be martyred) Scriptural proof: Revelation 11:7-8 observation God has given the privilege of spreading the gospel to men -because of our unique relationship to God which the (remember)- angels long to look into- and to give prophesy) when angels give prophesy it is to "man" and then that man is honored for his "place" or "job" which comes after the prophesy or message given by the angel.

Mark 10:40 "But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not Mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared." i do not believe that this would have been an issue to the disciples or displeased them as shown after verse 40 if it were two angels or "word and Spirit- there would have been no purpose in recording the question (shown in the verses before) by the two disciples if it were- the specific identity of the two is not named for their safety before the 1260 days when the two are given power to kill on their own behalf...- if they were angels God would have no problem telling more about them as He does of the other angels who bring good and disaster to the earth in revelation. and they are not groups or the two lampstands and two olive trees symbols would not have been used...God would have used symbolism of things that implied groups not singleness...and in the end times there will be a "oneness" of those who believe(follow) not jews and Christians. Simply "those who love and obey" i only see one group he would anoint two vessels from: to use in such a manner "those who are going to heaven...these two are not self appointed or volunteers yet overly willing as Mark 10:40- they were created to stand before the God of the earth. the identity of the two olive trees will be clear when the 3 and a half years begin...
Hebrews 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment; So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation... -This verse is spiritually speaking "He appear the second time without sin..." He experienced spiritual death, so those who believe on Him would live just as He did when the Power of the Spirit raised Him. -yes as well as physical. men are appointed to die "once" - remember believers are to die to sin / alive to Christ. when our body gives out for whatever reason: technically we don't die we go to heaven continue to live- "(physical)Death is just another thing we live through" this verse is speaking of the spiritual death believers must die to become alive to Christ
if the verse were speaking physical then you would have to explain the contradiction with Lazeraus coming to life and dieing twice.

note: matthew 17:11-12 Elijah has already come...disciples had the same question many do today, isn't Elijah coming...His answer: he has already come matthew 11:14
And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.

 

[visionary]

from Revelation 11 and Zechariah 4 -John3 and Matthew11,17 Mark 10
and Proverbs 30

the two olive trees are not any of the old testament prophets or witnesses Scriptural proof: John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but "He" that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven" this scripture uses "He" meaning exclusively that He is the only one that will come down from heaven...(Enoch and Elijah ascended but remember Paul talks about a third heaven) they were ascended but not to the same place Jesus ascended Proverbs 30:3,4 "I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the Holy One .Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is His name, and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell?..." This verse speaks of things the HOLY ONE has or only ever will/could do.

the two witnesses are not the Word and Spirit or two angels (none of which can be martyred) Scriptural proof: Revelation 11:7-8 observation God has given the privilege of spreading the gospel to men -because of our unique relationship to God which the (remember)- angels long to look into- and to give prophesy) when angels give prophesy it is to "man" and then that man is honored for his "place" or "job" which comes after the prophesy or message given by the angel.

Mark 10:40 "But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not Mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared." i do not believe that this would have been an issue to the disciples or displeased them as shown after verse 40 if it were two angels or "word and Spirit- there would have been no purpose in recording the question (shown in the verses before) by the two disciples if it were- the specific identity of the two is not named for their safety before the 1260 days when the two are given power to kill on their own behalf...- if they were angels God would have no problem telling more about them as He does of the other angels who bring good and disaster to the earth in revelation. and they are not groups or the two lampstands and two olive trees symbols would not have been used...God would have used symbolism of things that implied groups not singleness...and in the end times there will be a "oneness" of those who believe(follow) not jews and Christians. Simply "those who love and obey" i only see one group he would anoint two vessels from: to use in such a manner "those who are going to heaven...these two are not self appointed or volunteers yet overly willing as Mark 10:40- they were created to stand before the God of the earth. the identity of the two olive trees will be clear when the 3 and a half years begin...
Hebrews 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment; So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation... -This verse is spiritually speaking "He appear the second time without sin..." He experienced spiritual death, so those who believe on Him would live just as He did when the Power of the Spirit raised Him. -yes as well as physical. men are appointed to die "once" - remember believers are to die to sin / alive to Christ. when our body gives out for whatever reason: technically we don't die we go to heaven continue to live- "(physical)Death is just another thing we live through" this verse is speaking of the spiritual death believers must die to become alive to Christ
if the verse were speaking physical then you would have to explain the contradiction with Lazeraus coming to life and dieing twice.

note: matthew 17:11-12 Elijah has already come...disciples had the same question many do today, isn't Elijah coming...His answer: he has already come matthew 11:14
And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.

but that leaves....the two witnesses as.....arriving at the start of the three and one half years....but who are they is the question

 

[visionary]

My point is that God's witness today is the Church. You say that the devil will cause great problems in these days to come.

God's witnesses today are not the church as it has fallen away, and the church is locked up in doctrines, in history, and tradtions of men, that it cna not change, because it is afraid to loose the identity that it has, and if anything is an indication, the robes of the priest being exposed to the world that they (the people) can see the unrighteousness via news media, tells me that maybe it is true that the judgments of God begin at the house of God.
The churches have been judged and are found wanting, they have been weighed on the scale and found inadequate to represent the whole truth.

True but wont this be the same devil that we have to deal with today. Does he not operate all over the world as he will in the days of the "two witnesses" as the scriptures say? What will make him so much more difficult to deal with in days to come than he does now. Is God going to give him more power?

As it was in the days of Noah, we have not reached that point.....if you read Book of Enoch, you will find that angels were mating with women and all kinds of uncontrolled evil was abounding. We also read that there will come a day when there will be a letting loose will occur, and then as they say "all hell breaks loose". True the devil operates in the world today, but under restraints. God will grant the wishes of the world and allow them to have their ruler for "one hour".

To me it is beyond compehension that two people, no matter what spiritual condition they may be in, have the ways and means of dealing with the works of darkness all over the world.

As far as two people having the ways and means, to me means that they can be like Philip and be giving testimony to the truth and then be gone to another location.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

They can be like Moses and call down plagues as often as they see necessary to get people to see that they are coming with the all the authority of God to call everyone everywhere with the last chance to leave sin forever.

They can challenge earthly religious authorities like the Pope, Billy Graham, and any other big name religious leaders, who come to accuse them of lies, just as Elijah did to the Baal priests.

Isn't this even beyond what Jesus could do in Jerusalem prior to the crucifixion

Yeshua's purpose was not to judge at this time, as much as it was His purpose to come and show us what a true believer of God is to walk, talk, and believe, and live like. We are to learn from His example what God demands of us and by faith accept the "penalty paid" offered through His sacrifice. We are to see the hope and promise of a new life through the ressurection, which He holds the keys to.

No - the witnesses have to be groups of people - two of His covenant peoples that He has restored since He had taken others out of the way at that time

Groups of people as two witnesses.....two covenant peoples....like God has two covenants....one for you and one for me. You and I both know that God has only one covenant, it has always been the same covenant, true it has taken on a new format, from stone to your heart, but it is still the same deal offered to mankind throughout all the centuries. Sorry, the way that the two witnesses are brought forth in Revelation, to me, clearly indicates two...not a multitude, not a remnant, not a church, not an assembly, not a synagogue, not a nation, not a group. I believe God is being specific for a reason. The reason is that we can look forward to two people that will stand out, who will face the world, face the greatest challenge in the history of this spiritual warfare between Satan and Yeshua for the rulership of this world.