Two types of Catholics

[Michie]

Yes. I'm getting ready to do the same.

LOLOL - See why I dropped out?

 

[PJ76]

Why are you converting then?

I am converting because the Catholic Church was the true church that was founded by Jesus Christ, and there is no salvation outside of the catholic church with the exception of invincible ignorance.

 

[PJ76]

Invincible ignorance meaning no fault of their own. Which means only Jesus would decide.

 

[Michie]

Well what do you think that means?? Wouldn't the true Church hold the fullness of faith and all that has to offer?

I am converting because the Catholic Church was the true church that was founded by Jesus Christ, and there is no salvation outside of the catholic church with the exception of invincible ignorance.

 

[PJ76]

Wouldn't the true Church hold the fullness of faith and all that has to offer?

Not necessarily. Since the term fullness of faith is defined as: Fullness of the Faith is meant that the Catholic Church contains within itself all that Christ has given and revealed for our salvation.

 

[PJ76]

By definition, one could argue that the Presbyterian Church also has the fullness of faith.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I think most protestants do know but will not acknowledge it since they were told otherwise by another protestant. I grew up in the protestant church. I along with all my protestant friends heard the claim that Catholic Church was the one true church, but we all refused to believe it since we were told otherwise by our youth pastors.

Many but not all Protestants have heard that Catholics believe the Catholic Church is the one true Church. But that is a different thing from knowing that the Catholic Church is the one true Church. So they may have heard it, but that doesn't mean it is proven to them or that they know it as a fact.

Those that know but refuse to become Catholic do indeed put their souls at great risk. The ones who may have heard such a claim but do not know it to be a fact are not the ones at risk. Hearing a claim differs quite a bit from having a claim rationally and convincingly proven to them as true. It's our job to convince them of the truth of the Catholic Church. Just telling them, and then concluding they go to hell if they don't accept what you say, that is not our job.

You may have believed the Catholic Church was the one true Church from the first moment you heard it. Most who hear such things will not accept it as true, at least not without a long process of discernment. Most will never do that because of what they were taught as Protestants about all the evils of the Catholic Church. For them it is simply impossible to believe the truth because it appears more like fake news. Such people are not damned because of their inability to believe what to them is impossible. These people had no hand in choosing to be Protestant, they didn't choose schism or heresy. They, particularly the baptized into Christ, aren't damned to hell for not being Catholic. If they chose apostasy that would be a different matter. But they were chosen by Christ in baptism.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thank you. I appreciate it. Looking forward to our dialogue.

I hope so. Your conversation with AvilaSurfer was not a pleasure to read. This one had better be better than that one.

 

[PJ76]

I hope so. Your conversation with AvilaSurfer was not a pleasure to read. This one had better be better than that one.

I read your entire previous post and I would agree. Nicely written. Thanks.

 

[Michie]

Please keep in mind that this is the Catholic forum and you have not even started RCIA yet. Sincere questions and discussion is welcomed but you cannot debate here. Especially when it comes to pitting the Church's teachings out of context against other Christian Churches. OBOB is a safehaven.

By definition, one could argue that the Presbyterian Church also has the fullness of faith.

 

[PJ76]

After thoroughly reading everyone's replies, it appears that most of us are on the same page in respect to the roll of catholic church and the church catechism.

 

[PJ76]

LOLOL - See why I dropped out?

Your always welcome here. I have no hard feelings. The greatest of these is love.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Perhaps you are right. Would you be so kind enough to explain to me the following statements in the Catechism?

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

This goes back to Cyprian. It's true. But it has to be understood with care. Augustine took up and modified the understanding in his dealings with the Donatists. They were holier than thou separatists who would have nothing to do with people who fell in the persecutions. They started their oun ecclesial body when the Catholic Church pardoned those who had apostasized in the persecutions. Augustine recognized the validity of the baptism of the Donatists even while pointing out how wrong, heretical, and schismatic they were. When we say 'outside the Church there is no salvation we MUST recognize the validity of Christian baptism among almost all Protestants. If you want to read more, find it in Augustine's 'On Baptism' subtitled 'Against the Donatists'.

"All salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is His Body."

This is absolutely true, meaning that salvation comes through no one but Jesus Christ and comes through the Church. See below about 'subsists in'.

"For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained"

True. Only in the Catholic Church is this true. The Orthodox do have all seven Sacraments. The Protestants one. Christ's Church subsists in the Catholic Church. That is where it is fully realized. But elements of Christ's Church exist in part elsewhere. This is the teaching of Lumen Gentium from Vatican II. The words are carefully chosen to say that the Catholic Church is the fullness of the Christian faith while allowing some real elements of the Christian faith in other places. Christ's Church does not subsist elsewhere, but there are elements of it, in particular valid baptism. That is why we refer to Protestant groups not as 'Churches' but as 'ecclesial communities', although we do refer to the Orthodox as Churches for they have all seven valid sacraments. If you want to read more, find Lumen Gentium, and Dominus Iesus. Also a good article: Christ's Church Subsists in the Catholic Church | EWTN

Do also look into the incident involving Fr. Feeney.

 

[chevyontheriver]

By definition, one could argue that the Presbyterian Church also has the fullness of faith.

Not without valid ordination. As a result they also have an invalid Eucharist, invalid confirmation, and they do not pretend to offer sacramental reconciliation, or a sacrament of healing. Their marriages are valid because the ministers of the sacrament are the man and woman marrying. Their baptisms are valid if they use natural water and baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They might have many other things going for them but they are not close to the fullness of faith with at best two sacraments.

 

[chevyontheriver]

After thoroughly reading everyone's replies, it appears that most of us are on the same page in respect to the roll of catholic church and the church catechism.

I'm not sure yet. The reason I jumped in was I was seeing a teaching I did not recognize that Protestants were not saved unless they became Catholic. I am full well used to some Protestants saying I'm not saved because I'm Catholic. But not all Protestants think or say that. Catholicism is distinctive, and true. But we do not condemn to hell those who through no fault of their own are Christian but not Catholic. So I'll wait and see how the discussion develops before I come to the conclusion we are on the same page.

 

[PJ76]

But we do not condemn to hell those who through no fault of their own are Christian but not Catholic.

I would agree. It is possible a non-catholic can be saved through no fault of their own. Also known as invincible ignorance.

 

[PJ76]

I think what is important to recognize is that whether catholic or non-catholic, there is no salvation without Jesus in your life.

 

[concretecamper]

But they were chosen by Christ in baptism.

So Baptism is all it takes?

 

[concretecamper]

But we do not condemn to hell those who through no fault of their own are Christian but not Catholic

Only God condemns people to hell.

 

[PJ76]

So Baptism is all it takes?

I know this question wasn't addressed to me but my answer would be no. Otherwise all the sacraments we have at the catholic church along with the sacred traditions would be meaningless. The fullness of faith is what someone called it earlier.