Two types of Catholics

[concretecamper]

I know this question wasn't addressed to me but my answer would be no. Otherwise all the sacraments we have at the catholic church along with the sacred traditions would be meaningless. The fullness of faith is what someone called it earlier.

You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. I will not respond to you beyond this one.

 

[PJ76]

Understood. I will be leaving this thread now since I've already stated my position. Thank you all very much for sharing your insight. This thread has taught me so much. Much appreciated.

 

[chevyontheriver]

So Baptism is all it takes?

Of course not.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Only God condemns people to hell.

Oh, lots of folks think that is their job. I've been told I'm going to hell so many times by 'friendly' Protestants out to save me from Catholicism.

What I objected to in this thread was saying that Protestants , just because they didn't become Catholics, were condemned to hell. It's just not that simple. Everyone can become and should become Catholic.

 

[Lady Bug]

I totally agree with you. If anyone can be saved outside the catholic church as long as they believe in Jesus, then what is the point of being catholic?

Actually I think that's a legitimate question

 

[concretecamper]

What I objected to in this thread was saying that Protestants , just because they didn't become Catholics, were condemned to hell. It's just not that simple

To be honest, I see more Catholics say that Protestants dont need to be Catholic to go to heaven. It's just not that simple.

 

[chevyontheriver]

To be honest, I see more Catholics say that Protestants dont need to be Catholic to go to heaven. It's just not that simple.

Agreed. We should all be seeking the truth and that seeking should land us in the Catholic Church. It's where the full truth is.But almost all Protestant groups have a valid baptism, and that is a real thing. If someone lives out their baptism, even with an ignorance of the Catholic Church being the place where the fullness of the faith resides, does God who lives in them as a result of their valid baptism condemn them to hell? What DOES the Catholic Church say?

If a Protestant becomes convinced of the claims of the Catholic Church they must join. We should be helping to convince them of that, as you and I have often tried to do. We should also be working with the unbaptized as an even more critical group. The 'anonymous Christian' theology of Karl Rahner has done a lot of damage. But to go the other way to the end of the spectrum and declare Protestants are toast is not the cure.

I should also add that baptism is Catholic, and in being baptized a Protestant is baptized into the Catholic Church. So it isn't a Protestant baptism they receive but the one baptism of Christ and a sacrament of the Church.

 

[concretecamper]

What DOES the Catholic Church say

The Catholic Church says that for those who have reached the age of reason, reception of the Eucharist is required for salvation. The Catholic Church says that the sacrament of penance is required for those who fall into serious sin.

I should also add that baptism is Catholic, and in being baptized a Protestant is baptized into the Catholic Church. So it isn't a Protestant baptism they receive but the one baptism of Christ and a sacrament of the Church.

and if the Church taught OSAS, Baptism alone would be enough.

 

[Lady Bug]

I should also add that baptism is Catholic, and in being baptized a Protestant is baptized into the Catholic Church. So it isn't a Protestant baptism they receive but the one baptism of Christ and a sacrament of the Church.

I'm skeptical about my baptism because I was immersed in a tub (lol) by a "friend" but the person administering it does not believe that Catholics are true believers. This baptism was back in 2007.** If you get baptized by someone who doesn't believe Catholics are Christians, I'm not sure it's valid. I'm not the arbiter of this of course.

**(I don't believe I started getting interested in the Catholic faith until 2008. When I did get baptized, I was convinced in my heart that it was necessary for salvation, but the person baptizing me viewed it as a symbol only).

 

[chevyontheriver]

The Catholic Church says that for those who have reached the age of reason, reception of the Eucharist is required for salvation.

So those Japanese Catholics who carried on the faith for generations after the priests were expelled or killed by the Shoguns were just toast? For generations there was no Eucharist in Japan but these Catholics baptized and catechized their children with no Eucharist.

The Catholic Church says that the sacrament of penance is required for those who fall into serious sin.

So those who have no way to get to confession after falling into serious sin, no hope at all for them either?

and if the Church taught OSAS, Baptism alone would be enough.

Happily the Church never taught OSAS. Remarkably many Protestants think we teach that all Catholics go to heaven and no Protestants do. In this thread nobody has said yet that all Catholics go to heaven. Just that Protestants don't.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I'm skeptical about my baptism because I was immersed in a tub (lol) by a "friend" but the person administering it does not believe that Catholics are true believers. This baptism was back in 2007.** If you get baptized by someone who doesn't believe Catholics are Christians, I'm not sure it's valid. I'm not the arbiter of this of course.

**(I don't believe I started getting interested in the Catholic faith until 2008. When I did get baptized, I was convinced in my heart that it was necessary for salvation, but the person baptizing me viewed it as a symbol only).

Was the person serious about baptizing you? Was the water plain natural water? Did this person baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit? If so it sounds like a valid baptism.

Immersion is OK. A tub is odd but OK. What the person doing the baptism thinks about Catholics is immaterial. If the person intended to do what Christians do when they baptize it was probably OK. If it was Mormon or Jehovah's Witnesses those would not be valid, nor from the Oneness Pentecostals, nor for fruity baptisms in the name of the creator and sustainer and redeemer.

Was the person who baptized you a recognized ordained minister? Did he record the baptism in an official record of some kind of church. Did they provide you with a baptismal certificate? I ask these things because the Catholic Church likes to have official records of these things. If it was all kind of 'informal' and there is no way to validate what actually happen, they might ask you for a 'conditional baptism' just in case. Talk to your priest about it. I'm not the arbiter either.

 

[charsan]

Oh, lots of folks think that is their job. I've been told I'm going to hell so many times by 'friendly' Protestants out to save me from Catholicism.

What I objected to in this thread was saying that Protestants , just because they didn't become Catholics, were condemned to hell. It's just not that simple. Everyone can become and should become Catholic.

I might have given some fuel to the fire when I opined that I feel many evangelicals are not saved. Interacting with them here and other places I still maintain that opinion when I see their rampant heresy though I know it is not for me to say who is and who is not saved, that job is up to God.

 

[concretecamper]

So those Japanese Catholics who carried on the faith for generations after the priests were expelled or killed by the Shoguns were just toast? For generations there was no Eucharist in Japan but these Catholics baptized and catechized their children with no Eucharist.

Take it up with the Church and John 6, not me.

So those who have no way to get to confession after falling into serious sin, no hope at all for them either?

sort of makes you careful not to fall into serious sin. Again, take it up with the Church, not me.

These are Her teachings, not mine. You asked the question, I gave you the answers. If you choose not to believe becasue they make you uncomfortable, sorry.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I might have given some fuel to the fire when I opined that I feel many evangelicals are not saved. Interacting with them here and other places I still maintain that opinion when I see their rampant heresy though I know it is not for me to say who is and who is not saved, that job is up to God.

The job is up to God, but I wonder if not that many will be saved, be they Protestants or Catholics. Catholics don't go to confession much any more, but I think we still sin. Some Protestants believe in OSAS, and they might be surprised at judgement. What I objected to was the conclusion that any Protestant who does not become Catholic is going to hell. That's just not Catholic teaching. That's just not Catechism nor Ut Unum Sint nor Dominus Iesus.

We need to up our game. But explaining how Protestants go to hell just because they aren't Catholic isn't the way. IMHO.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Take it up with the Church and John 6, not me.
sort of makes you careful not to fall into serious sin. Again, take it up with the Church, not me.

These are Her teachings, not mine. You asked the question, I gave you the answers. If you choose not to believe becasue they make you uncomfortable, sorry.

I will write off those generations of Japanese Catholics then, who had no access at all to the Eucharist on your say so. But ponder yourself just a bit their fate. They were baptized and catechized as Catholics yet there were no priests, so they go to hell.

 

[concretecamper]

I will write off those generations of Japanese Catholics then, who had no access at all to the Eucharist on your say so. But ponder yourself just a bit their fate. They were baptized and catechized as Catholics yet there were no priests, so they go to hell.

If you can offer me anything else besides pondering and feelings I would be happy to consider it

 

[Lady Bug]

Was the person serious about baptizing you?
Yes

Was the water plain natural water?
Yes

Did this person baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?
Yes

If so it sounds like a valid baptism.
So far, so good yes, lol.

Immersion is OK. A tub is odd but OK. What the person doing the baptism thinks about Catholics is immaterial. If the person intended to do what Christians do when they baptize it was probably OK.
I agree, that is how it happened.

If it was Mormon or Jehovah's Witnesses those would not be valid, nor from the Oneness Pentecostals, nor for fruity baptisms in the name of the creator and sustainer and redeemer.
I agree. She was from a nondenominational Church, and judging by the doctrine it seems like it is of Baptist theology for the most part.

Was the person who baptized you a recognized ordained minister?
No

Did he record the baptism in an official record of some kind of church. Did they provide you with a baptismal certificate?
Unfortunately, no to both.

I ask these things because the Catholic Church likes to have official records of these things. If it was all kind of 'informal' and there is no way to validate what actually happen, they might ask you for a 'conditional baptism' just in case. Talk to your priest about it. I'm not the arbiter either.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Sounds like you have been validly baptized. Anybody can baptize, male or female, ordained or not, even Christian or not. For example, a Jewish doctor is delivering a baby. And the baby is in tough tough shape. She can take the ten seconds to grab some water and baptize the baby and then get back to the medical issues at hand. It's valid as long as they intend to do what the Church does, even if they don't believe it. So no problem with it not being a recognized minister. Your baptism is good.

But the paperwork. Catholics can be so bureaucratic. But then with the proper documentation they know absolutely your baptism is OK. And for your sake they want to be sure. That's a good thing I guess. Maybe they can find the person who baptized you, and get a letter from them and that might do. I would hope so. Or they would do the conditional thing.

 

[Michie]

The conditional thing??

 

[chevyontheriver]

The conditional thing??

Sorry. A 'conditional baptism'. Going through the motions of a baptism with the understanding that it would only be effective if any previous attempts at baptism had been invalid. If a previous baptism were valid, this would be just getting wet and no re-baptism. They do this in cases where someone thinks maybe they were baptized but the evidence is sketchy.