Two Questions

TogetherInHim said:

So if "perish" does not mean,

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly​

What English translated word means, to destroy, destroy utterly, destruction/annihilation?

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G684 ἀπώλεια apōleia
G3639 ὄλεθρος olethros
G2506 καθαίρεσις kathairesis

TogetherInHim said:

Yes!...

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. (John11:25)​

He that believes in Jesus, even though he dies, shall live again, having been born again in the spirit. He that does not believe in Jesus, perishes, having only mortal life...

Watch the brief video summary of the study: www.WhoGoesToHell.com

There is more to this than most think or care to look into...

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The Christian hope is resurrection and life in the Age to Come.

That means that in Christian teaching death is understood to be overcome and defeated by Christ, and that in Him we likewise have hope in victory over death in the resurrection. The day is coming when this mortal body will be transformed and conformed to be like the glorious and immortal body which Christ has.

Scripture teaches that at the resurrection both the righteous and the wicked are raised up, the Christian hope of resurrection is that in the resurrection we are transformed, glorified, and have everlasting life in the Age to Come. The resurrection of the wicked is a resurrection to condemnation and judgment.

John 3:16 does not teach annihilationism or conditional immortality. It teaches that apart from the life we receive in Jesus Christ our end is perishing/destruction.

What, exactly, this destruction means big picture is part of a larger theological issue that involves other biblical forms of language, including the apocalyptic language of the lake of fire/second death, as well as the aionios fire of Gehenna Christ mentions in the Gospels. How we, ultimately, comprehend this notion of destruction is largely going to be shaped by our general eschatological perspectives on these other subjects.

Personally, I simply don't believe there is sufficient information available to us in Scripture to provide anything resembling a definitive answer to such questions; Scripture isn't particularly interested in giving us an answer about what the ultimate fate of the wicked is beyond that it's not good. The ambiguity and complexity of language is why there have been various views put forward throughout history, and the Church has never had a definitive statement on such things.

-CryptoLutheran

Der Alter said:

.....Here are a few verses which clearly define aionios as eternal, everlasting etc.

.​

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Der Alter said:

Here is a study I made.​

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Der Alter said:

[8]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “death” If “aionios” is only a finite period, “A finite period” is not opposite of “death.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”
[9]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Here “aionios” and “aion” are contrasted with not “snatch them out of my hand” In a finite period they could be snatched out, “Aionios” means “eternal.”
[10]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, “A finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”

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John 10:28 is a repeat of the same verse addressed below at verse #15 on your list of 19 verses (actually only 18, & just 17 that have aion/ios in them).

In John 6:58 death is not contrasted with aionios, but with live. Aionios is not the opposite of death.

And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon. (1 Jn.2:17, CLV) and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age. (YLT)

For the eon or age here can certainly refer to a finite eon such as the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ, or also the eon of the second death (lake of fire) until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes "all in all" (v.28), even all who were ever in Adam (v.22).

Der Alter said:

[11]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you
and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “little while.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”

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Actually aion (and therefore aionios) can be the opposite of a "little while". See previous comments above re 2 Cor.4:17-18 & "moment".

Der Alter said:

[12]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aion” is in apposition with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can
seek for “eternity” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus “aion” means “eternal.”

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Those who "in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality" will be given "aionios life". Aionios (eonian) life is the special reward for those who believe. They get life in the eonian period called the 1000 years in Revelation, i.e. the millennial age eon. Unbelievers will not get eonian life in the age to come. As we see in 1 Tim.4:9-11, God is the Saviour of all men, but specially of them that believe. For believers get the special gift of grace of eonian life. Others will lose out on that & be punished. But even they shall be eventually saved (Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).

Der Alter said:

[13]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “without end.” “aionios” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionios” means eternal.

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http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1-33.htm
http://studybible.info/ACVI/Luke
http://studybible.info/IGNT/Luke

Darby Bible Translation
and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end.

This is what it actually literally says:

Luk 1:33 and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation. (CLV)

It is about reigning over the house of Jacob and the time limit is "for the eons."

Here is the full verse with context:

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. (here is the second half of the verse you allude to And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

Christ eventually hands over the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15:24-28) and quits reigning (1 Cor.15:25). So His reign "for the eons" over the house of Jacob (Lk.1:33) is not forever, but finite. Therefore the phrase "for the eons" in Lk.1:33 is of finite duration & the translation "forever" is wrong, misleading & deceptive.

Der Alter said:

[14]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” means
“forever and forever.”

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If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration, not forever.

Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-11.htm

Many other similar examples could be given with a literal translation.

Scripture also speaks of night being "no more". So can "day and night" be forever?

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...hilationsim-vs-eternal-torment.8019864/page-7

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Der Alter said:

[15]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” means eternal.
[16]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” means eternal.
[17]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” means eternal.

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And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand. (Jn.10:28, CLV)

Evidently this may refer to a future eon & not the disciples time in the first century A.D., since they did perish or die. The coming eon will include the millennium or 1000 years of Revelation 20. Even during that millennial age eon some will die (Isa.65:20), but Jesus says here in Jn.10:28 that believers will not perish "for the eon".

Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isa.65:20)

Unbelievers will not enter the millennial age kingdom of Christ, but perish, according to verses in John above. It is noteworthy that it doesn't say they perish "without end" or "endlessly". They are raised at the great White Throne judgement of Revelation 20 & ultimately saved. For Jesus is the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29) & their Saviour (Jn.4:42) Who will draw them to Himself (Jn.12:32).

Der Alter said:

[18]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death
unto life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period” it means “eternal.”

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For neither is the Father judging anyone, but has given all judging to the Son, 23 that all may be honoring the Son, according as they are honoring the Father. He who is not honoring the Son is not honoring the Father Who sends Him." 24 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life. (Jn.5:22-25, CLV)

Here we see that all judging has been given to the Son for a positive end, that all may be honoring the Son.

Believers have life eonian, as long as they don't lose their salvation. Then they would lose this gift of grace of eonian life and come into condemnation again.

Der Alter said:

[19]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is.

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Actually in that verse death is not contrasted with aionios. Death is contrasted with its opposite life. Aionios life is the gift of God (Rom.6:23) to those who believe. Eventually all
will recieve life (verses 18-19 of the same book of Romans & chapter 5).

Der Alter said:

= = = = =
The definition of “apposition” from a Greek grammar.
III. Nominative in Simple Apposition
The nominative case (as well as the other cases) can be an appositive to another substantive in the same case. The usage is quite common. There are four features of simple apposition to be noted (the first two are structural clues; the last two features are semantic): An appositional construction inz’olz’es (1) two adjacent substantives (2)in the same case (40) (3) which refer to the same person or thing, (4) and have the same syntactical relation to the rest of the clause.
The first substantive can belong to any category (e.g., subject, Predicate nom., etc.) and the second is merely a clarification, description, or identification of who or what is mentioned.(41) Thus, the appositive “piggy-backs” on the first nominative’s use, as it were. For this reason simple apposition is not an independent syntactical category.
The appositive functions very much like a PN in a convertible proposition that is, it refers to the same thing as the first noun.(42) The difference, however, is that a PN makes an assertion about the S (an equative verb is either stated or implied); with appositives there is assumption, not assertion (no verb is in mind). In the sentence “Paul is an apostle,” apostle is a PN; in the sentence, “Paul the apostle is in prison,” apostle is in apposition to Paul.
(40)The nom. occasionally is in apposition to an oblique case, but the semantics are the same. See discussion below.
(41) An appositive, strictly speaking, is substantival, not adjectival. Thus, adjectives or Participles in second attributive position are not generally appositives, but usually hate an adjectival force.
(42) The significance of this will be seen in our discussion of the gen. case, for the gen can also involve a syntactical category, vi.t., the gen of apposition. The semantics involved in such a category are quite different from those involved in simple apposition.
With proper names typically the first noun is anarthrous and the appositional noun is articular. Matt 3:1 παραγινεται ιωαννης ο βαπτιστης κηρυσσων
John the Baptist came Preaching
Mark 15:4 0 εν αις ην και μαρια η μαγδαληνη
among them also were Mary the Magdalene...
Luke 1:24 συνελαβεν ελισαβετ η γυνη αυτου
Elizabeth his wife conceived
Rev 1:5 ο μαρτυς ο πιστος ο πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων
the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, Grand Rapids MI, 1996, Daniel Wallace, pp.48-49
=======
• A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament 2 Co 4:17
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
Literally, “the for the moment (old adverb parautika, here only in N.T.) lightness (old word, in N.T. only here and Mat_11:30).”
More and more exceedingly (kath' huperbolēn eis huperbolēn). Like piling Pelion on Ossa, “according to excess unto excess.” See note on 1Co_12:31.
Eternal weight of glory (aiōnion baros doxēs). Careful balancing of words in contrast (affliction vs. glory, lightness vs. weight, for the moment vs. eternal).
• Vincent Word Studies in the New Testament
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly
unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20,
exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.

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None of these sources support your aionios theory. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent, whom you quote, opposes it, saying:

"The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

https://books.google.ca/books?id=oDVxDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT1952&lpg=PT1952&dq=.There+is+a+word+for+everlasting+if+that+idea+is+demanded&source=bl&ots=kbcwXyQq-_&sig=iFJYNZt2o2GZkw3pr9EGNOB8Oa8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikjoe3jqvVAhXow1QKHZXWA4wQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=.There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded&f=false

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf


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https://www.christianforums.com/thr...os-based-on-aion.8040292/page-2#post-72110302

Der Alter said:

Since the fire, and only the fire, is aionios and it is no longer in Sodom then it must have gone back to God like the spirit does when man dies.

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Not necessarily. It may have just burned out as fires tend to do. Nowhere does Scripture say it returned to the heavens after burning Sodom.

Der Alter said:

ETA:The destruction of Sodom and the other cities did not last for an extended period of time, several minutes at most.

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Does that opinion have anything to support it, e.g. Scripture? OTOH, consider the following historical evidence:

"But what if Jude believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah had not been extinguished? What if he believed that the fires still burned in his day? Indeed, what if it were common knowledge that the fires of destruction still burned... An examination of the historical record would seem to indicate that this is precisely the case:

" "And in one day these populous cities became the tomb of their inhabitants, and the vast edifices of stone and timber became thin dust and ashes. And when the flames had consumed everything that was visible and that existed on the face of the earth, they proceeded to burn even the earth itself, penetrating into its lowest recesses, and destroying all the vivifying powers which existed within it so as to produce a complete and everlasting barrenness, so that it should never again be able to bear fruit, or to put forth any verdure; and to this very day it is scorched up. For the fire of the lightning is what is most difficult to extinguish, and creeps on pervading everything, and smouldering. And a most evident proof of this is to be found in what is seen to this day: for the smoke which is still emitted, and the sulphur which men dig up there, are a proof of the calamity which befell that country" (Philo, On Abraham 27)."

" "The length of this lake is five hundred and eighty furlongs, where it is extended as far as Zoar in Arabia; and its breadth is a hundred and fifty. The country of Sodom borders
upon it. It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that Divine fire, and the traces [or shadows] of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits; which fruits have a color as if they were fit to be eaten, but if you pluck them with your hands, they dissolve into smoke and ashes. And thus what is related of this land of Sodom hath these marks of credibility which our very sight affords us." (Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, IV.8.4)."

" "The fire which burns beneath the ground and the stench render the inhabitants of the neighboring country sickly and very short lived" (Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica, II.48)."

" "Lake Sirbonis [most historians agree that Strabo has confused Lake Sirbonis with the Dead Sea] is large; in fact some state that it is one thousand stadia in circuit; however, it extends parallel to the coast to a length of slightly more than two hundred stadia, is deep to the very shore, and has water so very heavy that there is no use for divers, and any person who walks into it and proceeds no farther than up to his navel is immediately raised afloat. It is full of asphalt. The asphalt is blown to the surface at irregular intervals from the midst of the deep, and with it rise bubbles, as though the water were boiling; and the surface of the lake, being convex, presents the appearance of a hill. With the asphalt there arises also much soot, which, though smoky, is imperceptible to the eye; and it tarnishes copper and silver and anything that glistens, even gold" (Strabo, Geography, XVI.42)."

"There are historical reports as late as the 17th, 18th and even 19th Centuries that suggest that the region around the Dead Sea continued to reek of sulfur and contain pockets of "subterranean fire," from which clouds of smoke would occasionally rise."

"Conclusion"

"When Jude was writing his Epistle, he and his readers believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah were still burning."

For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Jude 7

John Gill's commentary of 2 Pet.2:6 says:

"and so the author of the book of Wisdom 10:7 speaking of the five cities, on which fire fell, says,"

" "of whose wickedness, even to this day, the waste land that smoketh is a testimony; and plants bearing fruit, that never come to ripeness.'' "

"Philo the Jew (b) says, that"

" "there are showed to this day in Syria monuments of this unspeakable destruction that happened; as ruins, ashes, sulphur, smoke, and a weak flame, breaking forth as of a fire burning:'' "

2 Peter 2:6 Commentaries: and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

TogetherInHim said:

...Hell was created to imprison eternal beings, ...

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Where is that said in the Bible?

ClementofA said:

That has been answered several times before:

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And these specious copy/paste arguments have been refuted many times before. I write my own posts I do not, like some folks, copy/paste big blocks of canned arguments from biased websites.

Young's Literal Translation
(1 Tim.1:17)

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What makes Young's literal? Just because a translator says something is literal does not make it so.

Additionally, if the ages have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26), then "King of the ages" cannot mean King for endless time.

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Note the second word "IF."

1."God exists today"

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2. Today "is finite"
3. Therefore God exists during finite days [years, centuries, eras, epochs, milleniums, ancient times/olam, eons & ages]
4. God is also immortal.
5. Therefore God exists both during finite days & immortally.
6. Both are true at the same time.

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Ignores the verses which do not fit the assumption, argument refuted.

Thus your argument is refuted.

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Wrong!

Actually the opposite of a "moment" can be an "age" of a "finite period":

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Also a "moment" is usually a 'short' period of time.
An "eon" or "age" can be a 'long' period of time.
And 'long' is the opposite of 'short':

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Long specious argument which ignores the word "temporal," i.e. temporary, in the same passage.
As I said, which you ignored, aionios is contrasted with both "for a moment" and "temporal/temporary" which clearly defines aionios as eternal/everlasting.

First, in this verse it says "aionios in the heavens". Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary, so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.

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Is it your argument that God replaces our temporary tabernacle, i.e. bodies, which are destroyed, and replaces them with another tabernacle, body, that is also temporary only a little longer but is ultimately also destroyed?

"The most ancient manuscripts omit the words, "for ever" ", i.e. they omit the Greek word aion:

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Once again you deceptively ignore some parts of the post to further a false argument. You addressed only vs. 23 not vs. 25. Some mss. do not include "aion" in vs. 23 but all mss. do include "aion" in vs. 25

1 Peter 1:23(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …​

1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
Let me know when we can have a frank, reasoned discussion, let me know.

Der Alter said:

[2]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not
seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aionios” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal
/temporary.” “Eternal” is. See Robertson below.

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Wrong! Actually the opposite of a "moment" can be an "age" of a "finite period":

Thesaurus results for MOMENT
Gegenteil-von.com
104 Moment Antonyms - Opposite of Moment - Page 3
Gegenteil-von.com

Also a "moment" is usually a 'short' period of time.
An "eon" or "age" can be a 'long' period of time.
And 'long' is the opposite of 'short':

http://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/vocabulary-lesson-opposites2.php

Der Alter said:

Long specious argument which ignores the word "temporal," i.e. temporary, in the same passage.
2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[temporary][πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
As I said, which you ignored, aionios is contrasted with both "for a moment" and "temporal/temporary" which clearly defines aionios as eternal/everlasting.

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Still wrong (see above), as you post the same error that i already exposed above. Furthermore you are also wrong in claiming that the English word "temporary" cannot be the opposite of aionios as a finite age. In Webster's dictionary the first definition of "temporary" does not list "eternal" as an antonym of "tempoary", but instead "long-term, permanent": Thesaurus results for TEMPORARY

A permanent driver's licence is "long-term" & more lasting than a temporary driver's licence, but neither are eternal.

It may be significant to note that these verses do not speak of what is "invisible" (aoratos, Strongs 517), but of what is not "seen" (blepo, Strongs 991). Something that is merely not seen (or, not observed) may not be something which is "invisible" in the sense that it cannot be seen.

As Tom L remarks, in the context of 2 Cor.4:17-5:1 "the things not seen at this time is the glory of the afterlife and the resurrection body":

17 For the momentary lightness of our affliction is producing for us a transcendently transcendent eonian burden of glory, 18 at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary, yet what is not being observed is eonian. 1 For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens. (CLV)

Tom L adds "the word invisible does not appear in the text and Paul is not claiming the resurrection body is invisible...He compares...things which we now see with the things of the afterlife which are not seen at this time...It is not that they are invisible just that they are not seen now...In particular he speak of the glories of the afterlife and the resurrection body God has in store for believers...These things are unseen because we don't experience them at this time not because they are invisible...".
The folly of full Preterism - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

"4340 próskairos – (an adjective, derived from 4314 /prós, "motion towards, with" and 2540 /kairós, "a season") – properly, a limited time of opportunity; fleeting, temporary ("only lasts for a while")." Strong's Greek: 4340. πρόσκαιρος (proskairos) -- in season, i.e. temporary

"Something need not be endless if it is contrasted with "seasons." Today we have the four seasons. So if I were to suffer for two seasons with the promise that I would have glory in the eon to come, would that eon to come have to be eternal since it is contrasted with "two seasons"? No."

"2Co 4:18 at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary, yet what is not being observed is eonian."

"(YLT) we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during."

Read more: Daniel O. McClellan (Old Testament, spiritual, bless, eternal) - Christianity -  - Page 9 - City-Data Forum

"It is often claimed that in 2 Corinthians 4:18, “eonian” (aiõnion) must mean “eternal” because it is set in contrast to the word “temporal,” meaning pertaining to time as opposed to eternity. The Greek word, however, translated “temporal” in the AV (proskaira) has no connection with the word for “time” (chronos); in English form, the Greek is literally TOWARD-SEASON, and means “temporary” or “for [only] a part of a season.”

"Contrastive terms need not be antithetical in meaning. Our Lord deemed it sufficient contrast to compare temporary (i.e., a part of a season) with a single season–less than a year (Matt.13:21). Yet here, in 2 Corinthians 4:18, while the contrast is far greater, it does not follow that it is therefore infinite. The contrast is between our afflictions, which last, so to say, but for a brief “partial season,” and our promised, long-enduring “eonian” glory...The eonian life and glory which is our special portion (cp 1 Tim.4:10b; 2 Tim.2:10,11), no more debars the endless life and glory in which we shall participate as well (cp Luke 1:33b; 1 Thess.4:17b; 1Cor.15:28), than youthful happiness precludes the happiness of maturity.” Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Two
A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Four

"Now, in this passage, Paul is using proskairos and aiónios in contrast with each other. But notice that he is not contrasting time (which would be the word "chronos" in Greek) with timelessness. Instead, he is contrasting two different measures of temporal duration (i.e., two different measures of time). In Matthew 13:21, Christ employs proskairos to denote a relatively short measure of time. It is used in reference to those who hear the gospel and endure in their faith for only "a short while" in contrast to those who, after hearing the word, keep it and go on to produce fruit. Christ is not contrasting a temporary period of time with an endless measure of time; rather, Christ is contrasting a relatively short measure of time which does not result in the production of "fruit" with a relatively longer period of time that does (similarly, in Hebrews 11:25, proskairos is translated "a short season" or "fleeting," and denotes the relatively short-lived enjoyment that sin brings). But the opposite of proskairos isn't endless duration, for proskairos doesn't mean finite duration. Its meaning is clearly relative to whatever is in view. Again, when Christ uses the word in Matt 13:21, he isn't contrasting a person who endures in his faith for a finite period of time with a person who endures in his faith for an infinite period of time; he's contrasting a relatively short period of time with a relatively longer period of time (i.e., relative to a person's mortal lifespan)."

"In the context of 2 Corinthians 4-5, proskairos conveys a relatively short measure of time (i.e., duration confined to a mortal lifetime, during which time one can see and experience one's mortal self "wasting away"). Aiónios, on the other hand, while not meaning endless duration, denotes a much longer duration of time..."

http://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.ca/2015/01/eternal-or-eonian-part-seven.html

In 2 Cor.4:17-18 these things which are but temporary (for a "season") are compared with what is eonian, agian, lasting, for an age or ages, pertaining to an eon or eons, much longer periods of time than a mere season.

"Paul is not making a contrast between time and eternity, as the Authorized Version’s terms “temporal” (pertaining to time, from the Latin tempus) and “eternal” would suggest."

http://concordant.org/expositions/his-achievement-are-we/part-15-living-god-eons/

Der Alter said:

[3]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” An “aionios” house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” means “eternal.”

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A more literal & accurate version says:

2 Cor.5:1 For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens. (CLV)

First, in this verse it says "aionios in the heavens". Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary, so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.

Secondly, that the house is not dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time does not necessarily mean that eonian means eternal in this verse. For example if something is not dissolved for the eon of the millennial age eon, that doesn't mean the millennial eon is eternal.

Der Alter said:

Is it your argument that God replaces our temporary tabernacle, i.e. bodies, which are destroyed, and replaces them with another tabernacle, body,
that is also temporary only a little longer but is ultimately also destroyed?

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No. The mortal bodies are not "destroyed" or annihilated, but "dissolved" (2 Cor.5:1) & to be resurrected, so they are not a "temporary tabernacle". Neither does 2 Cor.5:1 say they are "temporary".

Der Alter said:

1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God.

1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
​

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

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Aion is not defined by one verse. Usage & context determine meaning in any particular context. No single usage in a single context defines the meaning of a word for all other contexts.

Furthermore, your argument has holes in it & has not been proven to be anything more than a theory, a possibility, a supposition. As the following shows:

Two different Greek words are rendered "word" in v.23 & v.25 of your version. In v.25 it means utterance related to the gospel. The gospel message Peter spoke of "repent" etc is not going to be proclaimed forever:

"Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Will Peter be preaching "repent" while in heaven? Is the "good news" (i.e. gospel) of "repent and believe" going to be preached through all eternity? To who?

Nothing in v.25 proves the literal translation "to the age" is wrong:

1 Peter 1:25 Interlinear: and the saying of the Lord doth remain -- to the age; and this is the saying that was proclaimed good news to you.
1 Peter 1:25 Interlinear: and the saying of the Lord doth remain -- to the age; and this is the saying that was proclaimed good news to you.

OTOH, contrary to your opinion of defining aion as "eternal", aion is defined (as scholars of the past 2000 years agree, in opposition to you), as various durations, age, eon, epoch, etc. And Scripture proves it is used to refer to various period of time that are of finite duration:

"Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word “eternity.”

¨ What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?

¨ I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).

¨ The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).

¨ The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).

¨ Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).

¨ Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).

¨ Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).

¨ Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).

¨ Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?

¨ Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity…(1Co. 2:6-8)

¨ Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).

¨ Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come.
(1Co. 10:11)

¨ God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).

¨ Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).

¨ Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).

¨ Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).

¨ In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).

¨ From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).

¨ Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).

¨ Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).

¨ Receive him for eternity (Ph.1:15). Does this mean forever or only until Onesimus dies?

¨ Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).

¨ At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).

¨ We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3).

How can we say…

¨ “Before eternity” or “eternity began”? Eternity has no beginning (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21; 1Co. 2:7; Ep. 3:9).

¨ “Present eternity,” “eternity to come,” and “end of eternity?” Eternity transcends time. Only God is eternal (Mt. 24:3; 28:20; 1Co. 10:11; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 6:5; 9:26).

¨ “This eternity,” “that eternity,” or “eternities”? There is only one eternity (Lu. 16:8; 20:34-35; Ro. 12:2; 1Co. 1:20; 2:6-8; 3:18; 10:11; 2Co. 4:4; Ga. 1:4; Ep. 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9; Col. 1:26; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 11:3).

¨ “Eternal secret” if the secret is revealed? (Ro. 16:25-26; Col. 1:26). It is no longer a “secret” at that point."

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin

ClementofA said:

...
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,

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Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. (here is the second half of the verse you allude to And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

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...

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You continue to copy/paste all of your arguments. As I have said many times just because some translator says something in "literal" that does not make it so. Here is the complete definition of the Greek word "telos", from BDAG, which your cherry picked reference claims means "consummation." I invite your attention to the first paragraph. Also note the main definitions indicated by a circled number, e.g.①. Please show me where "consummation" is a definition?

ClementofA said:

Aion is not defined by one verse. Usage & context determine meaning in any particular context. No single usage in a single context defines the meaning of a word for all other contexts....

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Thank you for this unsupported opinion.

Furthermore, your argument has holes in it & has not been proven to be anything more than a theory, a possibility, a supposition. As the following shows:
Two different Greek words are rendered "word" in v.23 & v.25 of your version. In v.25 it means utterance related to the gospel. The gospel message Peter spoke of "repent" etc is not going to be proclaimed forever:
"Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Will Peter be preaching "repent" while in heaven? Is the "good news" (i.e. gospel) of "repent and believe" going to be preached through all eternity? To who?
Nothing in v.25 proves the literal translation "to the age" is wrong:
1 Peter 1:25 Interlinear: and the saying of the Lord doth remain -- to the age; and this is the saying that was proclaimed good news to you.
OTOH, contrary to your opinion of defining aion as "eternal", aion is defined (as scholars of the past 2000 years agree, in opposition to you), as various durations, age, eon, epoch, etc. And Scripture proves it is used to refer to various period of time that are of finite duration:
"Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word “eternity.”
¨ What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?
¨ I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).
¨ The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).
¨ The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).
¨ Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).
¨ Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).
¨ Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).
¨ Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).
¨ Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?
¨ Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity…(1Co. 2:6-8)
¨ Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).
¨ Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come.
(1Co. 10:11)
¨ God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).
¨ Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).
¨ Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).
¨ Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).
¨ In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).
¨ From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).
¨ Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col.1:26).
¨ Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).
¨ Receive him for eternity (Ph.1:15). Does this mean forever or only until Onesimus dies?
¨ Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).
¨ At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).
¨ We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3).
How can we say…
¨ “Before eternity” or “eternity began”? Eternity has no beginning (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21; 1Co. 2:7; Ep. 3:9).
¨ “Present eternity,” “eternity to come,” and “end of eternity?” Eternity transcends time. Only God is eternal (Mt. 24:3; 28:20; 1Co. 10:11; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 6:5; 9:26).
¨ “This eternity,” “that eternity,” or “eternities”? There is only one eternity (Lu. 16:8; 20:34-35; Ro. 12:2; 1Co. 1:20; 2:6-8; 3:18; 10:11; 2Co. 4:4; Ga. 1:4; Ep. 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9; Col. 1:26; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 11:3).
¨ “Eternal secret” if the secret is revealed? (Ro. 16:25-26; Col. 1:26). It is no longer a “secret” at that point."

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Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"
Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?
Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?
Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?
Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?
Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"
Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?
Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"
Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"
Did "all the world" worship the goddess Diana?
Was the faith of the Romans literally spoken of throughout "the whole world?"
.....Let us use your reasoning on these verses. The word "world" cannot mean the entire earth because "the whole world" and "all the world" are used to describe things that are not literally "the whole world" and "all the world."
.....There is a grammatical term for how "world" is used in these passages. Do you know what that term is and how it relates to this discussion?

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin.

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This source is written by a person who has no stated or demonstrated expertise in Koine Greek.

Der Alter said:

Here are a few verses which clearly define aionios as eternal, everlasting etc.

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Actually some of the verses in your list use the noun, aion, not the adjective aionios. And, of course, you believe both aion and aionios always mean "eternal", except when used in hyperbole. You've never shown one scholar, church father, lexicon, or commentary during the past thousands of years in support of such a viewpoint. OTOH many such agree in opposing your theory.

It is a fact that nowhere in all the books of the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament is aion or aionios ever said to be "defined", "equal to" or "understood" as - "eternal, everlasting, etc.". Biblical Hebrew & Greek were very capable of expressing such a definition if the Divine Author of the Sacred Scriptures believed such was - THE definition - of the word. But He didn't. Nowhere do we read anything like:

"understand this: the word aionios means no end"
"aionios is equal to endless"
"aionios is the same as eternal"

The verse list of Der Alter merely presents arguments that in his opinion prove that certain verses he has selected mean "eternal" in their particular context. As i've shown his is just one interpretation which does not take into account other interpretations he hadn't considered. As such, in each and every instance, they fail as "proof texts" for a meaning of "eternal" in their particular contexts.

The fact is, both aion and aionios were often used of finite duration in the ancient Koine Greek of the times of the NT and early church fathers. Consider the following evidence:

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

In Philo is another example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

Here is another ancient Koine Greek example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "Chapter Nine

Which is verified by the following:

https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf

The original Greek he copied from the tablet is given at the url above, along with an English translation which was, in this case, “eternal and more than eternal and almighty…”

“…The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D. ; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century, that is to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible about the time of Origen.” [page 275ff]

Several more examples of the ancient Koine Greek word aionios not being "eternal" but of finite duration are as follows:

"In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."

"St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastêma, "an eonian interval." It would be absurd to call an interval "endless."

"Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.Chapter Nine

Early church father & universalist Origen's "insistence on punishment as a corrective is in direct response to accusations raised by Marcionite and Gnostic heretics of his time who accused God of cruelty and injustice (Sachs 625-626). By lifting voices from the scriptures that suggest that punishment is neither eternal nor without hope of providing correction, Origen hopes to show that the God of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are not so divergent in character, but rather are one and the same and that God’s nature is good and loving." Apokatastasis in the Thought of Origen and Gregory of Nyssa -*BryceRich.net

Origen, born into a Koine Greek speaking culture & a Greek scholar, makes it clear that aionios punishment is not to be understood as everlasting or eternal punishment:

"There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting. For when the body is punished the soul is gradually purified, and so is restored to its ancient rank** For all wicked men, and for demons, too, punishment has an end, and both wicked men and demons shall be restored to their former rank 80"
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0t8FDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=Origen+There+is+a+resurrection+of+the+dead,+and+there+is+punishment,+but+not+everlasting&source=bl&ots=4r3NGBhT0C&sig=c1KIf9XHCnTg_AGnq2Y7GBwLSoI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmyaeirbHbAhXjylQKHfJfCxkQ6AEIXTAG#v=onepage&q=Origen There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting&f=false

Origen sees the punishment of "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) as remedial, corrective & temporary:

"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)


Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

Commentary on the Gospel According to John

Greek text here:

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne/Origenes_PG 11-17/Commentarii in evangelium Joannis.pdf

continued next post

And again he indicates so called "everlasting(aionios/eonian) punishment" (Mt.25:46) is temporary:

"That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9 in "The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena" by Ilaria Ramelli, Brill, 2013, 890 p.)

Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", is supported also by:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=t47JCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=when+the+‘aeons+of+the+aeons’+are+mentioned,+a+certain+limit+is+again+posited&source=bl&ots=z4pNrnRpzI&sig=CQBIrlKAd1Tb4bbKOawzmUnBllU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHm-X6h5jOAhUUHGMKHQYFDQ4Q6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited&f=false

Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from the Syriac (Writings from the Greco-Roman World), By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (see pages 10- 11 at the url above).

Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.

https://www.amazon.com/Evagriuss-Kephalaia-Gnostika-Translation-Greco-Roman/dp/1628370394

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

Consider also whether aionios is finite in these Greek Old Testament passages:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)

They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)

Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:

"The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"The same is true of aionios in the Septuagint. Out of 150 instances in the Septuagint, four-fifths imply limited duration".

"..."The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf

https://books.google.ca/books?id=oDVxDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT1952&lpg=PT1952&dq=.There+is+a+word+for+everlasting+if+that+idea+is+demanded&source=bl&ots=kbcwXyQq-_&sig=iFJYNZt2o2GZkw3pr9EGNOB8Oa8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikjoe3jqvVAhXow1QKHZXWA4wQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=.There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded&f=false

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

Der Alter said:

Thank you for this unsupported opinion.

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Thank you for providing no evidence against it. Does that mean you have none?

Der Alter said:

Matthew 16:26
(26) What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? [Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]​

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Lose it for how long? It doesn't say forever. Can one who loses their soul find it again later? Did king Nebuchadnezzar lose his soul for 7 years when he ate grass like an animal...UNTIL...God restored him & he worshipped Love Omnipotent:

Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'
36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

Here again a punishment is...UNTIL...a certain point:

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail.
I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Which is spoken of in the context of references to Gehenna, both before & after this passage. Likewise here is yet another passage re punishment...UNTIL...a certain time:

Mt.18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? (Mt.16:26, KJV)

A parallel passage states:

What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? Lk.9:25

The word for "lose" is apollumi. The same Greek word used of the lost sheep, coin, & prodigal son who were "lost" & later found (Luke 15).

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

TogetherInHim said:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25)

Every reference to "everlasting" means "eternal". This means that the "place" described (hell) is eternal.

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Ok, thanks for your answer. I agree that the fire is everlasting. My problem was more with the idea of prison. It doesn’t seem to be very Biblical.

TogetherInHim said:

We know that the devil and all angels are "eternal" beings which means that they are "immortal" and cannot perish as those who are "mortal" will perish unless given "eternal" life from Christ.

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Jesus tells soul and body are destroyed in hell, that is why I don’t think it is prison.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

TogetherInHim said:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25)

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That the fire is eternal, doesn’t mean that some will live there forever.

TogetherInHim said:

"Doeth"? Works to enter the kingdom? Works demonstrate that those to whom he gave eternal life and the Holy Spirit, must have the love of Christ bearing fruit accordingly.

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I think you have right understanding about the works.

Der Alter said:

<ClementA said>While here in Colossians 1 we see the parallel between God creating all and reconciling all:

16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross...

Any heterodox group can make the scripture say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective scripture out-of-context. Vs. 20 "to reconcile all to Himself by Him" does this say that Jesus will reconcile all mankind to Himself, no matter what? Let us read a little bit more to understand the full context.

Colossians 1:20-23
(20) and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
(21) Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
(22) But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
(23) if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Jesus came "to reconcile all, for the purpose of reconciling all, to Himself"" but there is a condition "if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel."If someone does not continue in the faith and moves from the hope held out in the gospel" there is no reconciliation.

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The context shows that verses 21-23 are a different topic from verses 16-20 in which the parallel of verses 16 & 20 occur. In v.21-23 the subject is not all creation as in v.16,20, but instead the Colossians, the saints. Paul says they will be presented "holy in His sight" (v.22) if they continue in the faith, clearly a reference to a specific time, the time when they meet the Lord, which for these saints would have been when they died, & for others when He returns. So v.22-23 refer to a time no later than the second coming & tell us nothing about reconciliation possibilities for "all" beyond that time. So verses 22-23 in no way limit the parallel of verses 16 & 20 from being a future universal reconciliation of created beings in the ages to come after the Lord's return, such as in the millennial age or in the ages of the new heavens & new earth. Nowhere does Paul say of those who don't continue in the faith that they are excluded from the "all" of verse 20. Therefore your specious argument fails.

Is it inconsistent that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Der Alter said:

Jesus came "to reconcile all, for the purpose of reconciling all, to Himself

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In that case all the dead of OT times & all fallen angels are included. So there is still hope for them.

Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross" (Col.1:20), how can God let anyone end up being tortured forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins
against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

"ἀποκαταλλάσσω is found in the NT only in Col. and Eph., where καταλλάσσω does not occur. Since it is never found prior to Paul, it is perhaps coined by him....In men [it] is
preceded by alienation and enmity (Col.1:22)...Col.1:20 speaks of the gracious purpose which God had demonstrated...to reconcile the whole world to Himself; it does not speak of a reconciliation of the world already concluded. ἀποκαταλλάξαι cannot refer merely to the removal of a relationship of guilt by God, since it is plainly expounded as a conclusion of peace in Col.1:20 and Eph.2:15. Hence it is not something one-sided. It embraces the total life situation of man. It does not refer merely to his guilt before God. In Eph.2:16 reconciliation to God also brings reconciliation to Jews and Gentiles, and in Col.1:20 the reconciliation of men to God also carries with it that of supraterrestrial beings" (The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.1, p.258-259, Friedrich Buschel, ed. Gerhard Kittel, 1st printing 1964, 2006).

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).


"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
Reconciliation: The Heart of God's Grand Plan for Creation | Ambassador of Reconciliation

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus." ("Glorious Grace: 100 Daily Readings...", by Joseph Prince, p.165).

Der Alter said:

.....One out-of-context verse from Paul cannot negate the words of Jesus.

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Nothing Jesus ever said negates Paul's Universalism. It was Jesus who Authored Paul's epistles.

Out of context (& erroneously translated) quotes from other Bible writers not named Paul, which have been already addressed, deleted.