Two Questions

[pat34lee]

The quote is from another thread, but rather than straying from the OP, I'll start another one. This is not for debate. I will not challenge any answers. I would just like to see some, and know that those who agree with or are not sure about Lulav's statement here have to think about the questions.

Hi Daq, I don't see it as an exercise, merely a show of respect towards my maker. If that offends anyone then they need to re-examine why. I won't apologize for holding those terms in higher esteem than other names.
And since this is a MJ forum I see no need to have to.

I want to ask you, and the others on here who believe this two questions. I doubt it will change anything, but it's worth a try.

1. What makes you think that not saying his name is holding it in esteem? (Besides the Jews do it or it's tradition.)

2. Can you think of anything else that is good that you self-censor, or only bad things, such as curse words?

 

[daq]

Hi Pat,
Since my name is in your OP quote I suppose I will answer first. Seeing the Tetragrammaton written is not an offense to me and neither is it offensive when someone puts a dash between "L-rd" or "G-d". However, those who add to the Tetragrammaton imho have no precedent because Revelation 19:12 clearly tells us that there is One having a name written that no one knows. It cannot be Yeshua who has a name that no one knows because that would mean Yeshua has a name that the Father does not know. Therefore it is the Father who has a name that no one knows.

 

[MadMaxData]

Seeing the Tetragrammaton written is not an offense to me...

For the longest time it did not bother me either. It does now though.

 

[daq]

For the longest time it did not bother me either. It does now though.

Written is different than pronunciation. I simply do not believe anyone on earth knows how to properly pronounce the Tetragrammaton and neither should they try. Not sure how you feel about the book of the Revelation of Yeshua but perhaps you will appreciate this more than most:

Revelation 19:11-13 KJV
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man [GSN#3762 oudeis] knew, but he himself.
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Original Strong's Ref. #3762
Romanized oudeis
Pronounced oo-dice'
including feminine oudemia {oo-dem-ee'-ah}; and neuter ouden {oo-den'}; from GSN3761 and GSN1520; not even one (man, woman or thing), i.e. none, nobody, nothing:
KJV--any (man), aught, man, neither any (thing), never (man), no (man), none (+ of these things), not (any, at all, -thing), nought.

BDB - Strong's Greek Definition for #3762
3762 // oudeiv // oudeis // oo-dice' // including feminine // oudemia // oudemia // oo-dem-ee'-ah // and neuter // ouden // ouden // oo-den' //
from 3761 and 1520 ; pron
AV - no man 94, nothing 68, none 27, no 24, any man 3, any 3,
man 2, neither any man 2, misc 13; 236
1) no one, nothing

It does not actually say "no man" as the KJV renders it, (and there are other examples where "no man" is stated using the word anthropos) but more emphatically the text is rather suggesting that there is absolutely "no one else", (none other) who knows the Name having been written except He Himself, (the Father). If you understand the dating of this book as I do then there is good reason why Yeshua never mentions The Name in any of the Gospel record.

 

[pat34lee]

Thank you for the response Daq. I was hoping for more, but I guess following the rabbis is the only reason for those literally trashing his name.

 

[daq]

You're welcome Pat but I also do not find offense when someone uses HaShem. To me it is all about conscience. If your conscience will not allow you to do or say something do not do or say it while at the same time being mindful of your neighbor/brother/sister. You cannot please everyone all of the time but more importantly keep your conscience clean, (it is a garment) while avoiding judging your neighbor for doing something your conscience would not allow you to do. Your neighbor has passages that he or she believes support his stance and you have passages which you believe support your stance. Try to find common ground in Yeshua Christou, (see link).

 

[pat34lee]

You're welcome Pat but I also do not find offense when someone uses HaShem. To me it is all about conscience. If your conscience will not allow you to do or say something do not do or say it while at the same time being mindful of your neighbor/brother/sister. You cannot please everyone all of the time but more importantly keep your conscience clean, (it is a garment) while avoiding judging your neighbor for doing something your conscience would not allow you to do. Your neighbor has passages that he or she believes support his stance and you have passages which you believe support your stance. Try to find common ground in Yeshua Christou, (see link).

This is about far more than whether or not someone here gets offended or feels that I am judging them. Far from what some may think on here, I do neither lightly, but I do it knowingly. At some point, we must examine every doctrine we hold, because many of them offend Yahuah (Yahweh). I think people have avoided answering these two questions because they know there is no answer.

"Sorry bub, buddy, pal, whoever. I can't say or write your name even though it is the most written word in the Tanakh. A memorial forever that lasted a thousand years only to be purposely mangled and forgotten."

 

[daq]

This is about far more than whether or not someone here gets offended or feels that I am judging them. Far from what some may think on here, I do neither lightly, but I do it knowingly. At some point, we must examine every doctrine we hold, because many of them offend Yahuah (Yahweh). I think people have avoided answering these two questions because they know there is no answer.

"Sorry bub, buddy, pal, whoever. I can't say or write your name even though it is the most written word in the Tanakh. A memorial forever that lasted a thousand years only to be purposely mangled and forgotten."

This is a perfect example of what I meant in the previous posts above. When you write "Yahuah (Yahweh)" you have crossed a line, (imo) because you have no precedent or certain knowledge that you have added the correct inflections and what you have written is not what is written in TaNaK, (or its transliteration into English). However, I do not judge you for your attempts as you see I have never done so in any of the past threads concerning this matter. I think I might bow out now as I see a storm brewing and I have said my peace.

 

[pat34lee]

This is a perfect example of what I meant in the previous posts above. When you write "Yahuah (Yahweh)" you have crossed a line, (imo) because you have no precedent or certain knowledge that you have added the correct inflections and what you have written is not what is written in TaNaK, (or its transliteration into English). However, I do not judge you for your attempts as you see I have never done so in any of the past threads concerning this matter. I think I might bow out now as I see a storm brewing and I have said my peace.

No problem. This was not to debate anyway. I am comfortable with the pronunciation I use, though I don't fault any other that is within the realm of possibility, and I use others at times. If he were petty enough to only accept one correct pronunciation of his name, we are in big trouble regardless.

 

[MadMaxData]

Thank you for the response Daq. I was hoping for more, but I guess following the rabbis is the only reason for those literally trashing his name.

You were hoping for more people to share your view, but that is obviously not the case here. Not everyone despises Rabbinic authority, Pat. Some even know that Rabbinic authority was given to them by G-d Himself. And they certainly do not believe they are "trashing His name." In fact, it is quite the opposite.

This is about far more than whether or not someone here gets offended or feels that I am judging them. Far from what some may think on here, I do neither lightly, but I do it knowingly. At some point, we must examine every doctrine we hold, because many of them offend Yahuah (Yahweh). I think people have avoided answering these two questions because they know there is no answer.

Offending the Creator is the very reason why many people do not pronounce, or write His sacred name. That is certainly not offensive to G-d. People are not answering these questions because there is no answer, like you have suggested, it is more likely that they are not answering because you set your own limitations on their answers. You basically asked for people who agree with you to post their opinion, but those who do not share your opinion should remain silent. You got what you asked for....silence.

"Sorry bub, buddy, pal, whoever. I can't say or write your name even though it is the most written word in the Tanakh. A memorial forever that lasted a thousand years only to be purposely mangled and forgotten."

Purposely mangled, or forgotten? Gimme' a break. I'm sure the Torah sages all sat around thinking of ways to mangle/trash the Creators name. You come up with some real doozies sometimes.

 

[CherubRam]

The quote is from another thread, but rather than straying from the OP, I'll start another one. This is not for debate. I will not challenge any answers. I would just like to see some, and know that those who agree with or are not sure about Lulav's statement here have to think about the questions.



I want to ask you, and the others on here who believe this two questions. I doubt it will change anything, but it's worth a try.

1. What makes you think that not saying his name is holding it in esteem? (Besides the Jews do it or it's tradition.)

2. Can you think of anything else that is good that you self-censor, or only bad things, such as curse words?

It is the custom of the peoples of the world not to mention a persons name whom they do not honor. On the other hand, mentioning a persons name is a honor. Yahuah is the God whom we worship.

 

[pat34lee]

You were hoping for more people to share your view, but that is obviously not the case here. Not everyone despises Rabbinic authority, Pat. Some even know that Rabbinic authority was given to them by G-d Himself. And they certainly do not believe they are "trashing His name." In fact, it is quite the opposite.

Offending the Creator is the very reason why many people do not pronounce, or write His sacred name. That is certainly not offensive to G-d. People are not answering these questions because there is no answer, like you have suggested, it is more likely that they are not answering because you set your own limitations on their answers. You basically asked for people who agree with you to post their opinion, but those who do not share your opinion should remain silent. You got what you asked for....silence.

Purposely mangled, or forgotten? Gimme' a break. I'm sure the Torah sages all sat around thinking of ways to mangle/trash the Creators name. You come up with some real doozies sometimes.

I was genuinely curious to see if anyone could answer the questions here. I forget that to some here, tradition and feeling trump scripture.

If I am wrong, then:

Why is YHWH the most common word in the Tanakh? Remember that the Torah especially was to be SPOKEN constantly, including the name.

Who made up the custom of the ineffable name and why?

Do you think the name issue is tied to the curse in Jeremiah 44:26?

Do you think he is powerless to defend his own name without help?

Did you know it was never the heathens that were the problem in blaspheming his name, but his own people? And that was not from speaking or writing, but their actions.

Try a short search of my name, just through Jeremiah and Isaiah, and see what the general theme tells you.

 

[visionary]

I know that it is a jarring sound to my soul to have someone use His name irreverently.

 

[mishkan]

1. What makes you think that not saying his name is holding it in esteem?

The fact that I say it is my intention. If anyone in particular is not satisfied with that... tough.

2. Can you think of anything else that is good that you self-censor, or only bad things, such as curse words?

I self-censor constantly. People who don't self-censor properly are diagnosed with Tourette's Syndrome. I self-censored at least half-a-dozen times as I wrote this short post. And not one word I excluded was "bad".

 

[Rachel Rachel]

The fact that I say it is my intention. If anyone in particular is not satisfied with that... tough.



I self-censor constantly. People who don't self-censor properly are diagnosed with Tourette's Syndrome. I self-censored at least half-a-dozen times as I wrote this short post. And not one word I excluded was "bad".

Actually, that would be Aspergers.
And those who have Aspergers wouldn't know if it was a "bad" word or not, now would they?

 

[pat34lee]

The fact that I say it is my intention. If anyone in particular is not satisfied with that... tough.

I self-censor constantly. People who don't self-censor properly are diagnosed with Tourette's Syndrome. I self-censored at least half-a-dozen times as I wrote this short post. And not one word I excluded was "bad".

Thank you. At least one person is able to answer for his belief.

Not to debate, but clarify: When you say censor, do you mean edit or discrimination in wording? When I say censor, I mean words or concepts you will not say or write under most normal circumstances, or never.

Daq answered also, but he is more moderate than those I'm trying to get to answer.

 

[aniello]

Last time I was around a censer was last week up in Denver at Mass, where Pot is legal, and after we all were censered we all went flying.

A good time was had by all and then we had brownies and we all came to an understanding of being stoned.

Back to the rez.

 

[Yahudim]

I just wanted to weigh in on this topic. This has always had a little hysteria associated with it, but I wanted to look at it from a scriptural and historical perspective. Just a few verses from the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) about calling on the Name: יהוה. Please note that in the Hebrew text, every place David Stern substituted 'Adonai', יהוה is found.

Genesis 4:26
26 To Shet too was born a son, whom he called Enosh. That is when people began to call on the name of Adonai.

1 Chronicles 16:8
8 Give thanks to Adonai! Call on his name!
Make his deeds known among the peoples.

Psalm 99:6
6 Moshe and Aharon among his cohanim
and Sh’mu’el among those who call on his name
called on Adonai, and he answered them.

Psalm 105:1
105 Give thanks to Adonai! Call on his name!
Make his deeds known among the peoples.

Psalm 116:13
13 I will raise the cup of salvation
and call on the name of Adonai.

Psalm 116:17
17 I will offer a sacrifice of thanks to you
and will call on the name of Adonai.

Isaiah 12:4
4 On that day you will say,
“Give thanks to Adonai! Call on his name!
Make his deeds known among the peoples,
declare how exalted is his name.

Joel 3:5
5 (2:32) At that time, whoever calls
on the name of Adonai will be saved.
For in Mount Tziyon and Yerushalayim
there will be those who escape,
as Adonai has promised;
among the survivors will be those
whom Adonai has called.

Zephaniah 3:9
9 For then I will change the peoples,
so that they will have pure lips,
to call on the name of Adonai, all of them,
and serve him with one accord.

Continuing in the rabbinic tradition of censoring the name, יהוה. I should mention that the prohibition was originally against speaking the name out loud. The 'fence' of saying and writing 'HaShem' was added later.

It is thought that this prohibition is a fulfillment of prophecy given Yirmeyahu in chapter 44. This is recorded during the time that Yirmeyahu is taken to Egypt by a rebellious remnant that objected to the rule instituted by Babylon in Judea. It is also thought that by the time that the captives were coming back into the land, this tradition was already firmly entrenched had continued until the advent of Messiah Y'shua. You will find many places in the Brith Chadashah were sudden inexplicable controversy occurs, when you look a little closer, there is often found someone using the name.

Please note:

Jeremiah 44:24-30
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
24 In addition, Yirmeyahu said to all the people, but especially the women: “Hear the word of Adonai, all Y’hudah who are in the land of Egypt; 25 this is what Adonai-Tzva’ot, the God of Isra’el, says: ‘You and your wives stated your intentions with your mouths and performed them with your hands — you said, “We will certainly fulfill our vows that we made to offer incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her.”’ Without doubt, you will indeed fulfill every point of your vows. 26 Therefore hear the word of Adonai, all Y’hudah living in the land of Egypt: ‘I swear by my own great name,’ says Adonai, ‘that no man of Y’hudah will speak my name again in the land of Egypt, swearing, “As Adonai, God, lives.” 27 I am watching over them for harm, not for good. All the men of Y’hudah in the land of Egypt will be destroyed by sword and famine, until none of them is left. 28 Those who escape the sword will return from the land of Egypt to the land of Y’hudah few in number; and all the remnant of Y’hudah who went into the land of Egypt to live will know whose word will stand — mine or theirs! 29 Moreover, here is a sign for you,’ says Adonai, ‘that I will punish you in this place, so that you can know that my threats of disaster against you will come true.’ 30 Adonai says, ‘I will hand over Pharaoh Hofra king of Egypt to his enemies, to those seeking his life — just as I handed Tzidkiyahu king of Y’hudah over to N’vukhadretzar king of Bavel, his enemy, who sought his life.’”

It is recorded in Y'shua's famous prayer before He went to Gath-Smane to pray, that He had restored the Name to His talmidim and followers:
John 17
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
17 After Yeshua had said these things, he looked up toward heaven and said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that the Son may glorify you — 2 just as you gave him authority over all mankind, so that he might give eternal life to all those whom you have given him. 3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the one true God, and him whom you sent, Yeshua the Messiah.

4 “I glorified you on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify me alongside yourself. Give me the same glory I had with you before the world existed.

6 “I made your name known to the people you gave me out of the world. They were yours, you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me is from you, 8 because the words you gave me I have given to them, and they have received them. They have really come to know that I came from you, and they have come to trust that you sent me.

9 “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given to me, because they are yours. 10 Indeed, all I have is yours, and all you have is mine, and in them I have been glorified. 11 Now I am no longer in the world. They are in the world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, guard them by the power of your name, which you have given to me, so that they may be one, just as we are. 12 When I was with them, I guarded them by the power of your name, which you have given to me; yes, I kept watch over them; and not one of them was destroyed (except the one meant for destruction, so that the Tanakh might be fulfilled). 13 But now, I am coming to you; and I say these things while I am still in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves.

We know this to be true because of the incident that occurred with the Cohen gadol and P'rushim as He entered Yerushalayim on the 10th of Aviv:

Luke 19:32-40
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
32 Those who were sent went off and found it just as he had told them. 33 As they were untying the colt, its owners said to them, “Why are you untying the colt?” 34 and they said, “Because the Lord needs it.” 35 They brought it to Yeshua; and, throwing their robes on the colt, they put Yeshua on it. 36 As he went along, people carpeted the road with their clothing; 37 and as he came near Yerushalayim, where the road descends from the Mount of Olives, the entire band of talmidim began to sing and praise God at the top of their voices for all the powerful works they had seen:

38 “Blessed is the King who is coming in the name of Adonai!”[a]
“Shalom in heaven!”
and
“Glory in the highest places!”
39 Some of the P’rushim in the crowd said to him, “Rabbi! Reprimand your talmidim!” 40 But he answered them, “I tell you that if they keep quiet, the stones will shout!”


See:
Habakkuk 2:10-12
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
10 By scheming to destroy many peoples,
you have brought shame to your house
and forfeited your life.
11 For the very stones will cry out from the wall,
and a beam in the framework will answer them.
12 “‘Woe to him who builds a city with blood
and founds a town on injustice,

and

Psalm 118:25-26
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
25 Please, Adonai! Save us!
Please, Adonai! Rescue us!
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of Adonai.
We bless you from the house of Adonai.

Since Y'shua revealed He had given them the name, יהוה, it seem quite plausible that they were shouting it out loud and this is this action to which the P'rushim objected. It also stands to reason that by quoting Habakkuk, Y'shua was issuing a stern accusation and rebuke to the P'rushim.

Then there is the martyrdom of Stephan, who quoted Psalm 110:1 as he rebuked his Jewish brethren:

Psalm 110:1
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
110 (0) A psalm of David:
(1) Adonai says to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies
your footstool.”
...again calling out the name prohibited by the Tz’dukim and P'rushim.

There are some aspects of the 'Sacred Namers' to which I do not subscribe. But this seems like a no-brainer. Y'shua gave us יהוה to use, to call upon. I have every confidence that if I pronounce יהוה in any way different than it was first intended, then He Who confused the languages in the first place, is able to understand. That's my take on all of this.

Blessings,
Phillip

 

[Yahudim]

You didn't call me before you went to Denver? I'm only 24 hours away by car...

Last time I was around a censer was last week up in Denver at Mass, where Pot is legal, and after we all were censered we all went flying.

A good time was had by all and then we had brownies and we all came to an understanding of being stoned.

Back to the rez.

 

[aniello]

You didn't call me before you went to Denver? I'm only 24 hours away by car...

Come to New Mexico and our humble li'l rez for a ceremony and you won't have to use the car. Pretty soon N.M. will have the "mota" legalized and then all these kids with their e-cigarettes and their 'frajos encantados' will be dissolving their oxycontin in vegetable glycerin and then that will be legal too. This will occur, of course, after the politicians decide who gets what and when and how much the state Att'y Gen'l. gets on first cut. He may end up with less than he's getting now(ahem, ahem). RHIP, as it is said. From El Paso up the Rio Grande is known as the 'Pipeline', right to Alamosa, then to K.C.Mo. via 'Volamos por la Noche' airlines to the 'roundhouse' where the aroma of garlic, olive oil and polmidora sauce wafts through the air.

Ah, I'm all beklempt just thinking about my old home town, where the Lazios, Berbiglias, Binaggios, Civellas, Capras and B'nai B'rith proved they could send Truman to Washington.

Times were better then. Affare sono affare.