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Two men are reading the same bible...

Which one is apt to see the services in the written scripture when any portion of one is mentioned?

  • Reading alone.

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salt-n-light

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That's not surprising. Think about who is working against you and how our society has geared us towards isolation. I encourage you to try and break that cycle.

Forgive me...

Society does it so well. They break up the unity by creating division (with fear) then plant a "solution" to the division they were responsible for in the first place (with policies). Anyone that is a threat to that now becomes the "other" (with social pressure) . I see it with race, with gender, and with economic class status.

The church is a game changer in which the fellowship disregards that whole false promise of unity by combating social pressure with individual acknowledgment of repentance and true identity, finding unification through the Word of God, and finding fellowship among varieties of people by being part of the body of Christ.
 
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Marvin Knox

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I was glad to read your final sentence, because it would seem that you have run us together. "Kissing a Priest's ring" for instance.

The Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom - Liturgical Texts of the Orthodox Church - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

Ok - I stand corrected. In the Orthodox communion service the right hand of the priest is kissed - not the ring.

But the fact remains that deacons and laity shouldn't need to kiss anyone's right hand but their Savior.

I did say that the "higher" the service the more likely a Bible believer would be to find things to disagree with.

It's at least commendable I suppose that the Orthodox liturgies don't seem to be quite as "high" as the RCC.
I wind up with St. Luke creating the first Christian icon called 'Theotokos', commonly called 'mother and child' during Mary's lifetime and with everyones approval.
Correction - not with everyone's approval.
I don't need to read them.

Exactly - it's not in the Bible.

Where in scripture can I find that?

No kidding - who said that Paul was taught by anyone but the Lord?

No kidding? He wasn't at the last supper? You learn something new every day.






It is the completed order of Melchizedek, an order of bread and wine from the OT.

The entire service is known as the Divine Liturgy.
OK - I can accept that.

To YOU the communion remembrance service is known as the "Divine Liturgy".
We are endangering our souls by speaking against Christ's commands. I'm just hoping you see that.
No kidding? I do see that.

Also changing His simple command to do this in remembrance of me to something it wasn't then and isn't suppose to me now is dangerous. Don't add things to the scriptures - especially when it comes to something as sacred as remembering what Christ did at Calvary.
I concentrate on the "DO THIS" part.
Me too and I leave the inventions of men to those who want to concentrate on them.
 
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faroukfarouk

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John's First Epistle speaks of fellowship with others who walk in the light, as a result of fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

We do need absolutely to beware of any idea of "the church" coming between the individual believer's Spirit led appreciation and understanding of the Word of God. In the final analysis, the true, spiritual body of Christ is utterly add odds with professing Christendom's character which follows the world's priorities.
 
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Mountainmike

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Did you know anything about Orthodox Churches during your decade of twists and turns that led to Rome?

Forgive me...

Clearly they were one and the Same for some centuries.

I studied a little of the schism...indeed the almost reintegration. At a doctrinal level, it seemed to me that orthodox preferred to leave as complete mystery things the Roman church defined.

At a spiritual level I love orthodox spirituality, and emphasis, such as advent

Whilst we agree on far more than we disagree, and the world has a habit of seeing a small mark of difference , not the far bigger white sheet of paper..
....on several issues I simply cannot agree with orthodox enough to mean the choice for me at least was clear in favour of Rome. Here is not the place!
 
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Marvin Knox

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Check out an Orthodox Christian Divine Liturgy. It is way better than a Solemn High Mass
I agree.

But it still includes the kissing of the right hand of an earthly priest and an unwarranted assumption that the bread and wine has become the body and blood of Christ.
There was no such implication made by me or anyone else here that I am aware of.

I am familiar with your desire to use the term "cooperating" rather than "getting saved".

I began "cooperating with the Lord in 1958. We've both been baptized with the Holy Spirit for quite some time.

What mistake is that? I specifically said that I was assuming that you are "cooperating". I had no reason to believe otherwise.
Assuming that you are truly born again and are sealed with the Holy Spirit - your mileage obviously varies from what I see as likely response.
I realize that you may be a bit thin skinned considering what many Protestants feel is necessary to be "born again" and sometimes say about "high church" people.

But - please - don't threaten me again for any reason. That's against the rules of the forum and I will report you - monk or not. Thank you in advance.
Marvin, you miss the point. The Lord does not require us to re-crucify Christ at every Divine Liturgy.
Anytime there is the literal body and blood of the risen and glorified Son of Man carried about and eaten by men - there must be a re-crucifying of that bodily resurrected man.
Fine - if you really mean "mystically" (assuming again that mystically means to you what it means to me) then I will agree with you and join you at such a table.

But, to some who mean if as some kind of a covering catch word, simply saying the word "mystically" doesn't cover the egregious re-sacrifice of the living Lord that would be required for the literal presence of His body and blood in the hands of a priesthood.
He also said that it was not meant literally but only as a figure of speech. And - still you make he same mistake those following Him made and take it literally.

"Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:60-63

Again - assuming you mean the same by "mystically" as I do - I experience life in His Spirit when I remember His death in the communion service just as you do.

But you seem to be taking these things literally as did His mistaken followers (and not simply mystically).

You may not walk to and fro and lift the "host" up to the sun and pronounce "Hoc est Corpus Meum" to turn the elements into the literal body and blood of our Lord as the do in the RCC.

But your Orthodox "high" services still show forth things which a Bible believer would not find in the scriptures.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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It sounds like you have a lot of faith in a pastor, I have a lot of faith in God, how long are the services you attend.
I have had many pastors in the last 13 years. There is not just one. So, no, it’s not a following of a person, unless you mean Christ.

Some services are many hours long. And we stand. A lot. Why do you ask?

Forgive me...
 
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disciple1

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I have had many pastors in the last 13 years. There is not just one. So, no, it’s not a following of a person, unless you mean Christ.

Some services are many hours long. And we stand. A lot. Why do you ask?

Forgive me...
I was just wondering how long your service went, I can study the bible 2 hours, in the time it takes to go to church for an hour, and I get more out of it, and some churches think their owed money.
 
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Mountainmike

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I was just wondering how long your service went, I can study the bible 2 hours, in the time it takes to go to church for an hour, and I get more out of it, and some churches think their owed money.

There is no substitute for the Eucharist - our Lord really present there - the doctrine taught by the apostles to the very first Christians and handed down by them, and as a result it is the basis of the standard liturgy of early church so orthodox and catholic.

No amount of reading can replace it.
It was a direct ordinance of our Lord.
And it is free!....

Perhaps you should read the early fathers , then reconsider which church!
Read such as Ignatius to Smyrneans, Justin Martyr or even the Didache. So Find out what scripture means, not just what it says.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Marvin,

Care to disassemble this with me? Would you like to be able to discern the differences of praxis between RCC and Orthodox? The whys and hows? And we do mean "mystically".

You'll have to accept my word that there is a very specific deposit of faith. And no, not everything we would want to know about Christianity is contained in the bible. That's easy to explain though... the bible itself is the 'service book' of The Church. It doesn't exactly explain itself that way. Nor is it presented that way. I wish everyone had one, and I wish that all of them were complete versions of the full canon.

Call me nostalgic, but I like understanding the services that are the very source of our scriptures. They are teaching tools, a play, an act with a twist of reality, repeated annually on a schedule with clergy moving in and out of the roles so that you don't concentrate on the person rather than the position.

In 14 years I have had 5 Presbyters, 3 Bishops, 2 Metropolitan and 2 Patriarchs, while I have stood still. Forgive me for saying so, but the names of these people are unimportant. They allowed me to see Christ through them and their services have raised my head into the heavens. That is their significance. When we kiss the hand of a Presbyter, we are kissing the hand of Christ. We see nothing else.

About the sacrifice. I'd like to share with you the actual words that we pray in asking for this, so you can see for yourself what it is we ask for, and what it is we believe.

I will highlight what I think will be important to you.


John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." ~ Jesus Christ

If it were my text to edit, I would change Priest to Presbyter. The word priest just goes to show how much Judaism influenced the Roman order. We should not borrow such a word.

Forgive me...
 
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Marvin Knox

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About the sacrifice. I'd like to share with you the actual words that we pray in asking for this, so you can see for yourself what it is we ask for, and what it is we believe.
I will highlight what I think will be important to you.
Thanks.
That looks like it was clipped from the link I myself provided.
I, of course, read it first.
If it were my text to edit, I would change Priest to Presbyter.
Me too.
The word priest just goes to show how much Judaism influenced the Roman order. We should not borrow such a word.
I agree.
Which, of course is the exact point of this discussion.
The traditions of men used in liturgies are often not found in the scriptures.
Whether or not that is true was the question posed in the OP - was it not?
It's a little hard to discern your exact question means - as others have noted.
But I think I understood correctly what you meant.
Which one is apt to see the services in the written scripture when any portion of one is mentioned?
My answer (if I understand the question correctly) is that the one who was reading only the scriptures would likely see things more correctly and the one watching a "high" service would be more likely to be witnessing and hearing things which are not scriptural.

The "priests" found in the high service being but one example. It is an example which you yourself have just agreed in not biblical.

My opinion based on what I know of RCC and Orthodox doctrine is that the "higher" the service (i.e. RCC/Vatican etc.) - the more likely there will events and words not supported by the scriptures. In some cases, like many practices of the RCC) they are darn right blasphemous IMO.

By the way - we have just been discussing one of the least egregious of the many high services we could cite - have we not? I'm not sure if this example was chosen by design or just happened to be one of the favorites of the poster who cited it.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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By the way - we have just been discussing one of the least egregious of the many high services we could cite - have we not? I'm not sure if this example was chosen by design or just happened to be one of the favorites of the poster who cited it.

The Divine Liturgy is THE high service. No substitutes allowed!

Forgive me...
 
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Marvin Knox

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The Divine Liturgy is THE high service. No substitutes allowed!
If the cited service is indeed the only high service found in Orthodoxy - then I would say that there is little egregious found in the Orthodox high service - even though much of it would not be found in the scriptures.

However, I can't say that there is little egregious found in many or even most RCC services.

Still - my answer for the OP is that the person only reading his bible would be more likely to be understanding things more clearly than the one attending the high service - if indeed that was the question posed in the OP.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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If the cited service is indeed the only high service found in Orthodoxy - then I would say that there is little egregious found in the Orthodox high service - even though much of it would not be found in the scriptures.

That's because it is the scriptures...

(That was only the central portion.)

Forgive me...
 
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Marvin Knox

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That's because it is the scriptures...
I'm not sure what that means but certainly it sounds heavy.

By the way - when I said that there was little egregious found in the service - that did not include any understanding that the bread and the wine literally became the body and blood of the resurrected Savior.

However, since that it isn't spelled out in the service itself as I read things-only in the understanding of all present, the "service" itself is not egregious as I see it.

I'm glad to see there isn't any of the "Mary" stuff in the service or I would indeed find it egregious.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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We do not attempt to explain the un-explainable. It's a mystery, and that's where it ends.

Forgive me...
 
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Marvin Knox

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We do not attempt to explain the un-explainable. It's a mystery, and that's where it ends. Forgive me...
By the way - are you saying that the Liturgy we have been discussing is the only "high" service and is thus the only one applicable to the question posed in the OP or are there other service which Protestants such as I would deem "high"?
 
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disciple1

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Read such as Ignatius to Smyrneans, Justin Martyr or even the Didache. So Find out what scripture means, not just what it says.
Most pastors don't know what the bible says or what it means.

And the bible has nothing good to say about pastors.

As far as reading something other than the bible.

Ecclesiastes chapter 12 verse 12
Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
 
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Monk Brendan

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But - please - don't threaten me again for any reason. That's against the rules of the forum and I will report you - monk or not. Thank you in advance.

I was not threatening. Far from it. I simply said:
Please do not make that mistake again.

Anytime there is the literal body and blood of the risen and glorified Son of Man carried about and eaten by men - there must be a re-crucifying of that bodily resurrected man.

Why? First of all, I did not say that Christ is being crucified again. I realize that this was the attitude of some Roman Catholics before Vatican II, but it has never been the truth. Rather, as I mentioned in a different post, we are mystically taken back to the Last Supper, where we hear Jesus saying, "This is my BODY, this is my BLOOD." Then we share in that meal.


Again, we do not re-sacrifice the Living Lord. Even as we are mystically at the Last Supper, we are also standing at the foot of the Cross hearing Jesus cry out, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" We also hear the, "It is finished."

You may not walk to and fro and lift the "host" up to the sun and pronounce "Hoc est Corpus Meum" to turn the elements into the literal body and blood of our Lord as the do in the RCC.

WHO, besides Jack Chick, actually says that when we offer up the bread and wine, that we are offering it up to the sun? That is a loathsome comment, and it is offensive to me, and to any other Catholic, and probably to some Orthodox as well.

BTW, "Hoc est enim Corpus Meum" means "This is my body." and "Hic est enim calix sanguinus mei" means "this is the chalice of my blood."

That is what come from believing Jack Chick!
 
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