Two Cruise Lines Circumvent Dangerous DeSantis Edict

[Fr. Appletree]

Which is nothing. No law against anything they did. And while DeSantis can sue them for trying to protect their people from COVID-19, good luck on finding a jury that would side with him on that one.



Or commended for remaining rational in the face of Godwin's Law. Something like that.

A jury made out people who aren't rabbid bootlickers would be fine with it.

 

[The Barbarian]

A jury made out people who aren't rabbid bootlickers would be fine with it.

That's your problem. You don't get to hand-pick your jury. It's randomly taken from voters. So you'll just have to do with ordinary Americans, not your bootlickers.

And if you think ordinary Americas are "bootlickers", isn't that an important clue for you?

 

[The Barbarian]

Godwin's law says any online conversation heads towards hitler comparisons. It does not say such comparisons are invalid.

Describing a cruise line requiring evidence of vaccination against COVID-19 as "embracing the Hitleresque COVID fascism." Seems a rather egregious example of Godwin's Law at work. And advocating that they be "shut out of the economy" is to adopt a rather blatant authoritarian ideology one's self.

 

[probinson]

@probinson

I'm only going to address one point of your fairly lengthy response.

That's fine. Most people ignore most of what I say anyway. I suppose that's because it's difficult to logically refute the data.

Yes, people who contract covid respond differently. The data does show that younger people are generally less at risk of death and some don't even suffer any ill effects. But...they are still carriers!!!!

Perhaps. Perhaps not. There is no scientific consensus that asymptomatic transmission is all that common. In fact, looking at this study (Study evaluates household transmission of COVID-19) shows that 10.1% of people in households with an index case of COVID were then diagnosed. That means that 89.9% of people in the same house as someone with COVID did NOT get infected.

So, sure the 22 year old that contracts covid may not suffer, but his 80 year old grandmother that he hugs and kisses and passes it to likely won't be quite so fortunate.

That's not true either. Current estimates for case fatality in the elderly hovers somewhere around 5%. While that is quite a high number, it also means that 95% of the elderly that contract COVID will be just fine. You're spreading misinformation by saying that it's "likely" that an 80-year old that contracts COVID will die. The data shows that it's quite likely (95% chance) that they'll be fine.

Not only that, but a significant portion of the elderly are vaccinated now. So the risk levels aren't even the same for the elderly any more.

That's why everyone is treated the same. Carriers are carriers no matter how the disease may effect the carrier personally. If they don't take the same precautions, then the people that they then spread it to...completely unknowingly...may die. That's the point!!!!!

The multiple exclamation points really drive home the regurgitated propaganda. Nice touch.

However, I was just watching a news piece on NBC news where a journalist went into a hospital that had been visited at the height of the pandemic. She said that there were now 9 patients in ICU. Of those 9, 8 were unvaccinated. Of those 8, 3 were under 40. So, it may be that this new delta variant is not quite as age discriminatory as past strains have been. By the way, all of those 3 under 40's were on ventilators and 2 of them were suffering major organ failure.

That's tragic, and completely irrelevant. One journalist going into one hospital and seeing 9 patients where 3 were under 40 does not prove anything. Until we see data that shows this is occurring in large numbers, you have provided a single anecdotal data point that does not represent the whole. The media likes to show you these things to make you think that younger people are more vulnerable now. Apparently it's working on you, but the data simply does not support the idea that younger people are at any more risk from the delta variant than they were from any other variant. In fact, some studies have said that while delta is more transmissible, it's also less virulent.

I appreciate your position and quite agree that most young people can walk around flipping their finger at the rest of us

That's not my position at all.

However, when people consider that we hold some responsibility for our brother...well, then the algorithm changes a bit. We do it for the overall health of all who live among us. At least that's the way a civilized society should act.

If you say so. There's no doubt that virtue signaling has indeed been a driving force in this pandemic.

Do you know why we have such a large number of elderly that have died from COVID? I'll give you a hint; it's not because people walked around "flipping the finger" at anyone. It's because government officials panicked and sent sick patients out of hospitals and back to nursing homes where they could then infect even more of the most vulnerable people. They wouldn't even allow the nursing homes to test them. They simply had to accept all symptomatic patients. This travesty lays at the feet of the government. Here is a letter from the DoH in New York explaining this deadly policy;

 

[Fr. Appletree]

That's your problem. You don't get to hand-pick your jury. It's randomly taken from voters. So you'll just have to do with ordinary Americans, not your bootlickers.

And if you think ordinary Americas are "bootlickers", isn't that an important clue for you?

Most Americans aren't. It's that vocal minority foisting their derangement on everyone.

 

[The Barbarian]

That's your problem. You don't get to hand-pick your jury. It's randomly taken from voters. So you'll just have to do with ordinary Americans, not your bootlickers.

And if you think ordinary Americas are "bootlickers", isn't that an important clue for you?

Most Americans aren't.

Right. They aren't. Good luck getting a jury of them to buy your argument.

It's that vocal minority foisting their derangement on everyone.

Not anymore. Try to find a way to live with it.

 

[mark46]

Let's talk about risk.

1) Fewer than 1,000 of those vaccinated have died.

2) Fewer than 1,500 of those vaccinated have been sick enough to be hospitalized.

3) LA County has a huge crisis of COVID patients. The huge number of ZERO patients have been vaccinated.

4) Those who have the current variant have 1000 time the viral load of those with the 2020 strain, and spread the disease at least 10 times faster.

5) Death rates of those who get the 2021 variant are lower because we have much better treatments now. However, these patients show symptoms much earlier, and are often much younger.
=====================
BOTTOM LINE
A) We have an epidemic.
B) Those who are being very sick (or dying) are almost all unvaccinated.
C) High school and college students are very vulnerable.
D) As has always been the case, states have different rules about vaccinations. Many require their students to be vaccinated for many diseases. Other states have no requirements, and will force schools to accept unvaccinated students, no matter what the level of disease in their communities.

We're talking about risk.
..

 

[probinson]

=====================
BOTTOM LINE
A) We have an epidemic.

Agreed.

B) Those who are being very sick (or dying) are almost all unvaccinated.

Hmm. The UK announced Tuesday that 40% of those hospitalized are fully vaccinated. If you have to be hospitalized, most people would classify that as "being very sick".
COVID-19: Vallance corrects mistake to say 60% of people being admitted to hospital with coronavirus are unvaccinated

C) High school and college students are very vulnerable.

Nope. Current data simply does not support this statement. It borders on misinformation. Take a look at this statement from the UK's reasoning on why they are not mass vaccinating 12-17 year olds (emphasis added);

For children and young people without underlying health conditions that put them at high risk of severe outcomes from COVID-19, the direct individual health benefits of COVID-19 vaccination are limited. While vaccination of younger cohorts could reduce the risk of outbreaks of COVID-19 in school settings, the vast majority of those infected in any outbreak will either be asymptomatic or have mild disease. Currently, less data are available on the safety of COVID-19 vaccines in children and young people compared to adults, and JCVI carefully considered reports of myocarditis following the use of the Pfizer-BioNTech BNT612b2 and Moderna mRNA-1273 vaccines in younger adults. At this time JCVI does not consider that the benefits of vaccination outweigh the potential risks. Until more safety data have accrued and their significance for children and young people has been more thoroughly evaluated, a precautionary approach is preferred.​

JCVI statement on COVID-19 vaccination of children and young people aged 12 to 17 years: 15 July 2021​

 

[mark46]

.

Thank you for pointing out the UK data,
=================
It is different from the reported data from every county reporting in the US. Obviously, there is something wrong somewhere. What the UK data is that the vaccines are less effective against the variant that in being reported in the US.

CONCLUSION 1
It is even more important to have folks vaccinated. The variant is worse than is being reported. I would note that lots of vaccines are less than 100% effective. We do what we can.

CONCLUSION 2
The US should approve the testing and approval process for the boosters that would need to increase the effectiveness in order to be approved. I though that this was the case as soon as I saw the first test data from the variants.
=================
We differ on the definition of vulnerability. You believe that having high school students attend classes unmasked and unvaccinated doesn't make the children doesn't make them vulnerable because most of those infected will have only mild symptoms (which may or may not have lasting effects).

The reality is that there are larger and larger numbers of children in hospitals. IMO, requiring children to attend school among those very possibly diseased (those in hot spots) is to be guilty of malicious neglect.
=========
THE VERY SAD CONCLUSION IS THAT ALL WE NEED TO DO IS WAIT
We will see what the situation in high schools and grade schools by Thanksgiving. Of course, many parents will keep their children home in areas that are hot spots for COVID.

 

[probinson]

Thank you for pointing out the UK data,
=================
It is different from the reported data from every county reporting in the US. Obviously, there is something wrong somewhere.

Yep. Something is definitely off. And the UK is not alone. Germany is also choosing to forego mass vaccination of children and teens. It's likely more European countries will follow suit.

CONCLUSION 1
It is even more important to have folks vaccinated. The variant is worse than is being reported.

Nope. The UK data does not indicate this. In fact, it shows that the delta variant is likely less virulent than other variants;

CONCLUSION 2
The US should approve the testing and approval process for the boosters that would need to increase the effectiveness in order to be approved. I though that this was the case as soon as I saw the first test data from the variants.

Before you jump on the booster bandwagon, you might want to read this article from MedPage Today;

Boosters Without Data

If we accept boosters in the U.S. while the rest of the world remains unvaccinated, and if we authorize them based on inevitable improved laboratory titers without clinical outcomes, we run the risk of creating a medical industrial perpetual motion machine.

We will continue to breed new variants outside of our nation, which will lead to calls for yet more boosters, and we will continue to get new boosters without any evidence they are necessary (i.e., lower severe COVID-19 outcomes). Our arms will ache, our hearts will hurt, our wallets will be empty, and so too will our brains, as we will have abandoned all principles of evidence-based medicine.

What Evidence Do We Need to Move Forward with COVID Boosters? | MedPage Today​

=================
We differ on the definition of vulnerability. You believe that having high school students attend classes unmasked and unvaccinated doesn't make the children doesn't make them vulnerable because most of those infected will have only mild symptoms (which may or may not have lasting effects).

This statement ignores the fact that there were a great many schools that were open for in-person schooling all of last year with almost no issues from COVID. Here is just one;

There were no cases of COVID-19, he said, during the first 10 weeks of school. Cases did start to occur during the fall among students, and staff. State data shows at least three reported by staff members. Johnson estimated total cases could have approached 10, but acknowledged some cases could have gone unreported.

There were campus shutdown policies in place for consecutive days of high absenteeism, but it was not used. There were just a dozen more teacher absences in the fall, than during the same period in 2019.

'Our Kids Have Thrived': Rural Peaster ISD Never Required Masks Or Distancing And Most Students Are On Track Academically​

It also ignores that Dr. Walensky said this back in February;

"There is increasing data to suggest that schools can safely reopen and that safe reopening does not suggest that teachers need to be vaccinated,” CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky told reporters during a White House news briefing on Covid-19.

“Vaccinations of teachers is not a prerequisite for safely reopening schools,” she added.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/03/cdc...1Dp-UWolJrCvubjT9iVqln01f9sXjCvUZjXBefmRf_5gM​

Of course, that was immediately walked back with no explanation as to why or what happened to the "increasing data" she referenced, but memory holing inconvenient statements has become par for the course throughout this pandemic.

The reality is that there are larger and larger numbers of children in hospitals.

Can you show data to support this reality?

=========
THE VERY SAD CONCLUSION IS THAT ALL WE NEED TO DO IS WAIT
We will see what the situation in high schools and grade schools by Thanksgiving. Of course, many parents will keep their children home in areas that are hot spots for COVID.

It's probably true that may parents will continue to keep their kids home, doing untold damage to their education and their future because the CDC has done an absolutely abysmal job in accurately communicating the risk to children and teens in their zeal to push vaccines;

The CDC has projected a binary assuredness about the risk-reward calculus for young people, and in particular young males, yet evidence suggests much of the data is ambiguous at best, and contradictory at worst, to the CDC’s public messaging. By not acknowledging nuance and uncertainties, the CDC makes it harder, not easier, for Americans to make informed choices. And it makes it harder, not easier, for Americans to trust the authorities.

The CDC Owes Parents Better Messaging on the Vaccine for Kids​