two covenants

[Gup20]

After Abraham was made righteous by his faith, he circumcised every male in his house. Faith without work is dead.

So we agree that Abraham was made righteous before he ever followed the law and while uncircumcised ... and that the cause of that righteousness was faith.

It fills me with joy that we can walk together in agreement on this.

I also agree with you also that, once saved by faith, our works should demonstrate what we believe. Works are proof of genuine faith and demonstrate our faith is sincere... yet we are made righteous before any works are done by our faith alone.

 

[Mercy74]

So we agree that Abraham was made righteous before he ever followed the law and while uncircumcised ... and that the cause of that righteousness was faith.

It fills me with joy that we can walk together in agreement on this.

I also agree with you also that, once saved by faith, our works should demonstrate what we believe. Works are proof of genuine faith and demonstrate our faith is sincere... yet we are made righteous before any works are done by our faith alone.

G-d made a promise to Abram. Abram built an altar (Genesis 13:4); Abram believed G-d credit with righteousness (Genesis 15:6) So you see the progression or process, a promise made, Abram built an altar, G-d took Abram outside, Abram believed and it was credit to him as righteousness.

 

[JLB777]

yet we are made righteous before any works are done by our faith alone.

Could explain what you mean by made righteous by faith alone?


I don’t find this “faith alone” to be a biblical principle.



JLB

 

[Gup20]

Genesis 12:3 (KJV) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 12:7 (KJV) And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:16 (NASB) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

The building of that altar is the story of the gospel being preached to Abram.

 

[JLB777]

The building of that altar is the story of the gospel being preached to Abram.

I disagree.


The Gospel being preached to Abraham in which Abraham responds with the obedience of faith, and is first justified, occurs here in Genesis 12:1-4.



Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him...
Genesis 12:1-4


This is the act of faith by which Abraham was justified,

• So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him...

This is called faith; the obedience of faith.





JLB

 

[Mercy74]

I disagree.


The Gospel being preached to Abraham in which Abraham responds with the obedience of faith, and is first justified, occurs here in Genesis 12:1-4.



Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him...
Genesis 12:1-4


This is the act of faith by which Abraham was justified,

• So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him...

This is called faith; the obedience of faith.





JLB

A promise was made to Abram. Abram was obedient to the voice, G-d took Abram outside, Abram believed and it was credited to him as righteousness.

 

[Gup20]

I disagree.


The Gospel being preached to Abraham in which Abraham responds with the obedience of faith, and is first justified, occurs here in Genesis 12:1-4.



Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him...
Genesis 12:1-4


This is the act of faith by which Abraham was justified,

• So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him...

This is called faith; the obedience of faith.





JLB

Eh... i quoted Genesis 12:3 and said this story is the story Paul uses in Galatians 3 to describe the gospel being preached, and you disagreed saying it was Genesis 12:1-4 (though you bolded in red 12:3)?

I’m missing the distinction you are trying to make.

 

[JLB777]

A promise was made to Abram. Abram was obedient to the voice, G-d took Abram outside, Abram believed and it was credited to him as righteousness.

The “credited righteousness” was fulfilled by the righteousness of faith when Abraham obeyed the Lord and offered his son Issac on the altar.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Eh... i quoted Genesis 12:3 and said this story is the story Paul uses in Galatians 3 to describe the gospel being preached,

You quoted Genesis 12:7 and claimed the altar was the Gospel...

Here is your quote -

The building of that altar is the story of the gospel being preached to Abram.

That’s what I disagreed with.




JLB

 

[Mercy74]

The “credited righteousness” was fulfilled by the righteousness of faith when Abraham obeyed the Lord and offered his son Issac on the altar.



JLB

Do you understand that Abram built an altar prior to YHWH taking Abram outside, then Abram was told to count the stars in heaven, after that Abram believed YHWH and he was credited with righteousness.

 

[Gup20]

Could explain what you mean by made righteous by faith alone?


I don’t find this “faith alone” to be a biblical principle.



JLB

Before the law was given (before he performed any works of the law), and before Abraham was circumcised - in other words, before any works were performed - Abraham was credited with righteousness for his faith.

The righteousness received by Abraham was truly apart from any works.

So the only qualifier for receiving righteousness was faith in the gospel. Therefore, he was made righteous for his faith alone. After he was made righteous he was circumcised (a placeholder “seal” or foreshadow for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) sealing the righteousness he had already received.

 

[Gup20]

Do you understand that Abram built an altar prior to YHWH taking Abram outside, then Abram was told to count the stars in heaven, after that Abram believed YHWH and he was credited with righteousness.

Does it say he did some human sacrifices on it of some of his servants... we know he was totally willing to do that with Isaac. Can we assume he did this?

 

[Mercy74]

Does it say he did some human sacrifices on it of some of his servants... we know he was totally willing to do that with Isaac. Can we assume he did this?

He did not do any human sacrifice. Abram probably offered a ram or lamb.

 

[Gup20]

He did not do any human sacrifice. Abram probably offered a ram or lamb.

It’s just as likely he offered a human. Maybe we better not make any assumptions and should just go by what was written. Since it doesn’t say he made any sacrifices on the altar, we should probably just assume he didn’t make any sacrifices, or that sacrifices weren’t relevant to what was written.

 

[Mercy74]

It’s just as likely he offered a human. Maybe we better not make any assumptions and should just go by what was written. Since it doesn’t say he made any sacrifices on the altar, we should probably just assume he didn’t make any sacrifices, or that sacrifices weren’t relevant to what was written.

An altar is built to make sacrifices. Abram was told to offer his son; his son was replaced by the ram. Abram voluntary built an altar in Canaan; we know human sacrifice is an abomination!

 

[JLB777]

Do you understand that Abram built an altar prior to YHWH taking Abram outside, then Abram was told to count the stars in heaven, after that Abram believed YHWH and he was credited with righteousness.

What does Abraham building an altar have to do with anything?


Abraham was justified when he obeyed the word of faith and left his country to follow the Lord.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Abraham was credited with righteousness for his faith.

Before Abraham was “credited” with righteousness he was justified, (declared righteous) because he obeyed the word of faith, and left his household and country to follow the Lord.




JLB

 

[Mercy74]

What does Abraham building an altar have to do with anything?


Abraham was justified when he obeyed the word of faith and left his country to follow the Lord.



JLB

The point is he did this work before and after he believed.

 

[Mercy74]

Before Abraham was “credited” with righteousness he was justified, (declared righteous) because he obeyed the word of faith, and left his household and country to follow the Lord.




JLB

"word of faith"? Abram obeyed the word of faith? Please find this catch phrase in Scripture.

 

[Gup20]

An altar is built to make sacrifices. Abram was told to offer his son; his son was replaced by the ram. Abram voluntary built an altar in Canaan; we know human sacrifice is an abomination!

I think it best if you don’t add to the text or make assumptions.