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Two churches?

MWood

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Were there in fact two Churches?

The Little Flock (composed of kingdom believers) and the Church the Body of Christ (began with Paul preaching the Mystery)?


Yes!

Mat.4:23, Mat.9:35, Mat.24:14 and Mark,1:14-15

If you will search these scriptures you will see that Jesus was preaching "The Gosple of the Kingdom." So all those that believed that He was the Messiah, The Son of God, were a part of The Kingdom Church. Now this church is the same church that is refered to in Acts 2. The Church the Body of Christ was not known until it was revealed to the Apostle Paul in the Revelation of the Mystery. Then all those that believed the Gosple that Paul was preaching, were members of The Church, The Body of Christ.

So yes there are two Churches.
One for the Kingdom
One for The Body of Christ
 
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Danoh

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Were there in fact two Churches?

The Little Flock (composed of kingdom believers) and the Church the Body of Christ (began with Paul preaching the Mystery)?

Per your similar question on your "I'm New" thread:

QUOTE:
What I'm confused about is why, when Peter and Paul fellowshipped together (just using them as an example) did Peter not jump on board with the Mystery program eventually? How about John? I know James his brother died early on, so never mind him for this discussion). I find it interesting that God gave PETER the revelation about being able to fellowship with Gentiles and that he had the first recorded individual Gentile conversion with Cornelius (Acts 10).

Yet, Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. Seems as though the two men had a lot of common ground.

Why would the "Little Flock" including Peter, continue to follow what we call the Kingdom program given their access to Paul's teachings?

END QUOTE

When Peter is sent to a Gentile, at Acts 10, he at first takes issue with said instruction. Why? Because, all he has ever known is what the Lord informed that Gentile woman whom both the Lord and His disciples at first ignored - because Israel (the children of the Covenant, Acts 3) is to "be filled first" Matt. 15.

And by Acts 10, Peter has yet to see said filling having come to its fulness "first."

The poor guy. In Matthew 10 he was told they would not even finish the course of their commission before the Lord's return. Now he finds himself being informed that the Law of not eating certain creatures eaten by Gentiles, as a means of identifying Israel from the Gentiles, Lev. 11, was no longer! He could not but be beside himself.

Still, he goes as instructed "nothing doubting" - not held back by his doubts.

And what does he preach to this Gentile and his band of men. That "in every nation he that feareth God AND WORKETH righteousness is accepted with" God.

Get that - "in EVERY nation" those Gentiles who fear God. This is Israel's PROPHESIED Program's dealing with Gentiles - those Gentiles who fear the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Who, in keeping with said reverence bless Israel in some way, Luke 7. The very type of blessing this Gentile: Cornelius, is said to have blessed Israel with at the beginning of the chapter.

Then, to add to Peter's confusion as to what all is going on, BEFORE he preaches his Acts 2 gospel to this Gentile - submit to Israel's water rite - John's baptism - and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost - BEFORE Peter is able to get to that - these Gentiles begin to speak in tongues to the astonishment of those with Peter "they of (belonging to) the Circumcision."

Confused, Peter still goes ahead with the only order in things he has known "he that believeth and is (submits to the WORK of being water) baptized (a WORKS answer of a good conscience towards God) shall be saved."

Later, in chapter 11, Peter explains to the other Apostles his own remembering AFTER his having applied said water rite to these Gentiles that the Lord had told them (the Apostles) Acts 1, that John had baptized with water but they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit. And though, per ISRAEL'S PROPHESIED Program, Acts 2, that promise had been UNTO ISRAEL, for some reason, it had come on these Gentiles Peter had been sent to.

"The Jews require a sign" 1 Cor. 2, that had been a confirming sign to these Jews, and so, they "held their peace" despite their obvious confusion about this change in THEIR program.

They, like Peter, had understood that to have been a reference to their PROPHESIED Program, just as the Spirit had declared through Peter, in Acts 2. And that, per Mark 16, and Hebrews 2, being baptized WITH the Spirit was a sign of God's working within their midst.

They had had to believe, as Peter had had to, that this that had happened with these Gentiles was of God. That, doubting or not, they were not to resist this change. Recall that Israel falls for resisting the Holy Spirit working through these men, Acts 7 in light of Matthew chapters 10 and 12.

Paul's gospel? In Acts 15, Peter's understanding as to OUR Kept Secret Gentile Grace of Atonement NOW is ISRAEL'S Prophesied Grace Yet To Come. See Acts 3, and 1 Peter 1. Then, see Gal. 2 in light of Romans in 11, thus, Peter's words in 2 Peter 3.

Thus, first, Peter's Acts 15 "we (Israelites) SHALL BE saved even as they" (the Gentiles of Paul's ministry were NOW being saved).

"To this" concurs James "agree the writings of the prophets" (Acts 15). Hunh?

What God is NOW doing among the Gentiles WITHOUT Israel FIRST in no way conflicts with what God has PROPHESIED He will one day do among then THROUGH a redeemed Israel FIRST because He has PROPHESIED to do said Israel FIRST work among the Gentiles AFTER His return to RESTORE the Tabernacle OF DAVID.

They concur no conflict between the order God had Prophesied, and the order He was now working instead, because, per Paul to them, by this time (Gal. 2, Romans 2, 9-11, and 15) THEIR/ISRAEL'S PROPHESIED ISRAEL FIRST Program is NOW on hold "til the fullness of (this Gentile Grace) be come in."

Still, its all confusing to Peter and James, thus, his conclusion on the matter "Known unto God are his works FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD" - they are still attempting to understand what all has transpired through THEIR PROPHESIED lens.

To cut this long winded post short, Peter and "they of the circumcision which believed" THEIR "gospel OF THE CIRCUMCISION" remained under said gospel and its PROPHESIED HOPE - its PROPHESIED Grace TO COME because that was THEIR Hope - Acts 3, 1 Peter 1.

Note how that, in Acts 3 Peter preaches this blotting out of ISRAEL'S sins UPON the Lord's RETURN. And how that, such is still THEIR "shall be saved" hope in Acts 15, in 1 Peter 1, and how that, in 2 Peter 3, said hope is said to be on hold per Paul's writings.

They are not members of the Body of Christ (KEPT SECRET TIL PAUL) rather of Israel's PROPHESIED royal priesthood.

The "Little flock" the Lord had promised "the Father's good pleasure to give..." ISRAEL'S PROPHESIED "kingdom" of Priests to, Luke 11, Exodus 19, Isaiah 66, Hosea, Malachi 3, 4, Matthew 3, Mark 1.

Anyway, hope that is food for thought.
 
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Danoh

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I swear, sometimes I'll read back through posts and wonder if, given my dyslexic style of wrting, anyone was able to make sense of what I've written, lol

So, thanks for the compliment. Though, I suspect its your knowledge of the mystery that's enabling you to put together what I have attempted to elaborate on about it - the Mystery is that crirical a key to understanding the Body of Christ.

To your continued growth in the Mystery of Christ, sis - Christ: All in all in His New Creature!!!
 
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Were there in fact two Churches?

The Little Flock (composed of kingdom believers) and the Church the Body of Christ (began with Paul preaching the Mystery)?

The Little Flock is the 144.000 which rule as Kings and Priests with Jesus in his Heavenly Kingdom

The Other Sheep is The Great Crowd that no man could number, is who they rule over on Earth, very soon to come about.

Lord's prayer must come to mind.

Luke 12:32

John 10:16

Rev 7:9-10

Rev 7:14

Check the Scriptures.
 
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Dispy

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I swear, sometimes I'll read back through posts and wonder if, given my dyslexic style of wrting, anyone was able to make sense of what I've written, lol

So, thanks for the compliment. Though, I suspect its your knowledge of the mystery that's enabling you to put together what I have attempted to elaborate on about it - the Mystery is that crirical a key to understanding the Body of Christ.

To your continued growth in the Mystery of Christ, sis - Christ: All in all in His New Creature!!!

I agree that some of you longer postings make me go back and re-read them a couple of times to get exactly what you are saying. However I do agree with most of what you write.

Those that believe that the church, the Body of Christ, began at Pentecost, use Act 10 as proof of Peter going to the Gentiles, and their receiving the Holy Spirit. Many believe that he went to the Gentiles under the "so called" great commission. I don't believe that.

The Church, the Body of Christ, consists of Jew and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. This church did not exist at Pentecost because there were only Jews and proselytes present. It was strictly a "kingdom church".

We find in Acts 7 the stoning of Stephen, i.e. the Jewish leaders rejecting God the Holy Ghost. They had previously rejected God the Father when the tried to establish their own righteousness (Rom. 10:1-3). Further, the rejected God the Son when they cried "crucify Him".

With the stoning of Stephen God gave Israel temporary slumbering eyes (set aside) as Paul states in Rom. 11:7-12.

In Acts 9 we find the conversion of Saul/Paul, and his commission which was similar to that of the disciples.

IMHO it is in Acts 10 that we find that the "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile is broken down, through the vision of the sheets with unclean things.

God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Now God is showing Peter, through the vision, that he should no longer consider those of another nation common or unclean (cf. Acts 10:28). That the Jews are now in the same "set aside condition" as the Gentiles.

Further, God sent Peter to Cornelius. Cornelius was a Roman centurion, a devout man that feared God, and gave much alms. This tells me that he was a blessing to Israel, and proselyte to the Jews religion.

Peter's going to Cornelius was a fulfillment of God's promise to Abram in Gen. 1:3, that He would bless those who would bless them.

There is no record of Cornelius being baptized prior to receiving the Holy Ghost, or that the had confessed his sins. This is contrary to Acts 2:38.

IMHO Cornelius became a member of the kingdom church, and not a member of the Church, the Body of Christ, and it is in Acts 10 we first learn that the "middle wall of partition" was broken down between the Jew and Gentile. Israel is now in the same "set aside boat" (figuratively speaking) as the Gentiles.
 
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MWood

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I agree that some of you longer postings make me go back and re-read them a couple of times to get exactly what you are saying. However I do agree with most of what you write.

Those that believe that the church, the Body of Christ, began at Pentecost, use Act 10 as proof of Peter going to the Gentiles, and their receiving the Holy Spirit. Many believe that he went to the Gentiles under the "so called" great commission. I don't believe that.

The Church, the Body of Christ, consists of Jew and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. This church did not exist at Pentecost because there were only Jews and proselytes present. It was strictly a "kingdom church".

We find in Acts 7 the stoning of Stephen, i.e. the Jewish leaders rejecting God the Holy Ghost. They had previously rejected God the Father when the tried to establish their own righteousness (Rom. 10:1-3). Further, the rejected God the Son when they cried "crucify Him".

With the stoning of Stephen God gave Israel temporary slumbering eyes (set aside) as Paul states in Rom. 11:7-12.

In Acts 9 we find the conversion of Saul/Paul, and his commission which was similar to that of the disciples.

IMHO it is in Acts 10 that we find that the "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile is broken down, through the vision of the sheets with unclean things.

God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Now God is showing Peter, through the vision, that he should no longer consider those of another nation common or unclean (cf. Acts 10:28). That the Jews are now in the same "set aside condition" as the Gentiles.

Further, God sent Peter to Cornelius. Cornelius was a Roman centurion, a devout man that feared God, and gave much alms. This tells me that he was a blessing to Israel, and proselyte to the Jews religion.

Peter's going to Cornelius was a fulfillment of God's promise to Abram in Gen. 1:3, that He would bless those who would bless them.

There is no record of Cornelius being baptized prior to receiving the Holy Ghost, or that the had confessed his sins. This is contrary to Acts 2:38.

IMHO Cornelius became a member of the kingdom church, and not a member of the Church, the Body of Christ, and it is in Acts 10 we first learn that the "middle wall of partition" was broken down between the Jew and Gentile. Israel is now in the same "set aside boat" (figuratively speaking) as the Gentiles.


Yes Indeed! Yes Indeed! :thumbsup::amen:
 
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Hmmm....good post, Dispy and most of it I can agree with.
But can we discuss this further?

God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Now God is showing Peter, through the vision, that he should no longer consider those of another nation common or unclean (cf. Acts 10:28). That the Jews are now in the same "set aside condition" as the Gentiles.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying about the Jews being shown by God to be in the same set aside condition as Gentiles. I don't see the tower of Babel story = the Gentiles "set aside". At that time there was no Gentile nor Jew as it was pre-Abrahamic times, right? I'm so confused..... :confused:

The only people being "set aside" at that time would be the Jews (nation of Israel) after they stoned Stephen.

Isn't it true that Jesus was seen by Stephen STANDING (as if in judgment) and that the Tribulation was set, by prophecy, to begin as God poured out His wrath finally? (yes, I know it was interrupted by the Mystery of the Grace preached by Paul).

If anything, it seems clear that this is the time that God began to unveil His new plan for the Gentiles. Not in the full revelation to Peter that He would give to Paul shortly thereafter, of course, but hints. Things were definitely changing.

I say this because:

Acts 10:34Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— ...

vs. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins

vs 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.


This is yet another section of scripture that to me seems to show that the Church, the Body of Christ was formed early in Acts, when the Holy Spirit was poured out. Yes, on the Jews in Jerusalem first, at Pentecost, but shortly thereafter on the group that was with Cornelius (the many).


And the concept of two churches seems to me to fly in the face of Jesus' words in Matthew 16:
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


I keep thinking I'm missing something here :D I know the Mystery wasn't revealed until later, so Jesus would probably not have said "upon this Rock I'll build one of my churches".



I guess what I'm saying is, I'm still struggling with the two church concept.


Those that believe that the church, the Body of Christ, began at Pentecost, use Act 10 as proof of Peter going to the Gentiles, and their receiving the Holy Spirit. Many believe that he went to the Gentiles under the "so called" great commission. I don't believe that.
But those were his marching orders from the Lord. What other motivation or reason might Peter have had to do anything during that time frame?


At any rate, Peter was directly instructed by the Lord to go speak to the 3 men from Cornelius household, and he obeyed, and ended up at Cornelius' house in Caesaria. So can you please explain more of what you mean in the above quote? Thanks!
 
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1cor10:32 or 33 states three groups... Gentles,Jews and the church

What are Jews promised... To rule thee earth

What is the church promised to rule over the universe.. 1 cor 6:2-3 with Christ

Gentiles... Are much harder ..... But Hebrews 12:22 I believe talks about righteous men as well in some minor profits in both places
 
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Dispy

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EL1055:
Hmmm....good post, Dispy and most of it I can agree with.
But can we discuss this further?

BigD:
THANK YOU
for you kind remarks. I am more then willing to discuss this with you. I enjoy discussion much more the arguement.
------------
BigD:
God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Now God is showing Peter, through the vision, that he should no longer consider those of another nation common or unclean (cf. Acts 10:28). That the Jews are now in the same "set aside condition" as the Gentiles.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying about the Jews being shown by God to be in the same set aside condition as Gentiles.

SL1055:
I don't see the tower of Babel story = the Gentiles "set aside". At that time there was no Gentile nor Jew as it was pre-Abrahamic times, right? I'm so confused.....

The only people being "set aside" at that time would be the Jews (nation of Israel) after they stoned Stephen.

BigD:
The word "gentile" simply means non=Jew. We find that word first used in Gen. 10:5. speaking of all mankind. Hope this is helpful
------------.
SL1055:
Isn't it true that Jesus was seen by Stephen STANDING (as if in judgment) and that the Tribulation was set, by prophecy, to begin as God poured out His wrath finally? (yes, I know it was interrupted by the Mystery of the Grace preached by Paul).

BigD:
Yes, Jesus was STANDING at the stoning of Stephen. He was ready to fulfill Psalms 110:1
to make His enemies His footstool (judgment). But where sin abound, GRACE did much more abound.

We see that the Tribulation signs began to appear in Acts 2:16-20. But God in His mercy interrupted the Tribulation, and the prophesies pertaining to Israel, and raised up Saul/Paul to establish this present dispensation of GRACE.
------------
ST1055:
If anything, it seems clear that this is the time that God began to unveil His new plan for the Gentiles. Not in the full revelation to Peter that He would give to Paul shortly thereafter, of course, but hints. Things were definitely changing.

I say this because:

Acts 10:34Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— ...

vs. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
--------------
BigD:
You bring up some excellent points, and I can see where your confusion comes from.

Keep in mind that all the OT prophets perceived all aspects of what Jesus would accomplish, but saw them all as one event. The dispensation of GRACE was still "...hid in God (Eph 3:9)
-------------
EL1055:
vs 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

BigD:
It is understandable that those with Cornelius were astonished. Nothing like this has ever happened before. Peter was just doing what God instructed him to do, and his explanation to James in Acts 11:17 "...what was I, that I could withstand God."

Also keep in mind that this happened after the conversion of Saul/Paul, and the vision to Peter. Yes, times were a changing.
-------------
EL 1055:
This is yet another section of scripture that to me seems to show that the Church, the Body of Christ was formed early in Acts, when the Holy Spirit was poured out. Yes, on the Jews in Jerusalem first, at Pentecost, but shortly thereafter on the group that was with Cornelius (the many).

BigD:
The Holy Spirit being poured out at Pentecost was a fulfillment of what John the Baptist said in Matt. 3:11. It had nothing to do with the Church, the Body of Christ. Further, the disciples were given the Holy Ghost in John 20:22, and in Luke 24:49 they were told to wait in Jerusalem until they received its power.

This had nothing to do with the starting of the Church, the Body of Christ.
------------
SL1055:
And the concept of two churches seems to me to fly in the face of Jesus' words in Matthew 16:
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I keep thinking I'm missing something here I know the Mystery wasn't revealed until later, so Jesus would probably not have said "upon this Rock I'll build one of my churches".

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm still struggling with the two church concept.

BigD:
The gospels would be more understand able if one would not read future revelations to Paul into them. IMHO, Confusion is born when one does that.
-------------
BigD:
Those that believe that the church, the Body of Christ, began at Pentecost, use Act 10 as proof of Peter going to the Gentiles, and their receiving the Holy Spirit. Many believe that he went to the Gentiles under the "so called" great commission. I don't believe that.

SL1055:
But those were his marching orders from the Lord. What other motivation or reason might Peter have had to do anything during that time frame?

At any rate, Peter was directly instructed by the Lord to go speak to the 3 men from Cornelius household, and he obeyed, and ended up at Cornelius' house in Caesaria. So can you please explain more of what you mean in the above quote? Thanks!

BigD:
Prior to Acts 10 Peter, and the 11 were instructed to not go to the Gentiles (Matt. 10:5).

In the "so called" great commission they were to go to the nations. Acts 1:8 gives the order in which they were to accomplish that. (The children [Israel] must first be feed.)

Peter was not sent to Cornelius in carrying our the "so called" great commission, but was doing what God instructed him to do.

Hope this is helpful and look forward to your response.
 
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Dispy

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SL1055:
I do believe that one must learn the distinction between "prophecy", as it pertains to the nation of Israel, and "the mystery" as it pertains to the Church, the Body of Christ.

Prophecy/Mystery
In his book THINGS THAT DIFFER pastor C.R Stam makes the following distinctions (14) between Prophesy, as it pertains to the nation of Israel, and "the Mystery" as it pertains to the Church, the Body of Christ.

BASIC DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN PROPHECY (P) AND THE MYSTERY (M)

(P)Concerns a kingdom; a political organization (Dan.2:44, Matt. 6:10).
(M)Concerns a body; a living organism(I Cor. 12:12,27, Eph. 4:12-16).

(P)The kingdom to be established on earth (Jer. 23:5, Matt. 6:10).
(M)The body given a position in heaven (Eph. 1:3, 2:5-6, Col. 3:1-3).

(P)Christ to be its King (Jer.23:5, Isa. 9:6,7).
(M)Christ its living Head (Eph. 1:19-23, Col. 1:18).

(P)The kingdom prophesied "since the world began" (Luke 1:68-70, Acts 3:21).
(M)The body chosen in Christ before the world began, but "kept secret since the world began" (Rom. 16:25, Eph. 1:4-11, 3:5-9).

(P)Israel to be given supremacy over the nations (Isa. 60:10-12, 61:6).
(M)Jew and Gentile placed on the same level before God (Rom. 10:12, 11:32, Eph. 2: 16,17).

(P)The Gentiles to be blessed through Israel's instrumentality (Gen. 22:17,18, Zech. 8:13).
(M)The Gentiles blessed through Israel's obstinacy (Acts 13:44-46, Rom. 11:28-32).

(P)The Gentiles to be blessed through Israel's rise (Isa. 60:1-3, Zech. 8:22,23).
(M)The Gentiles blessed through Israel's fall (Acts 28:27,28, Rom. 11:11,12,15).

(P)Prophecy mainly concerns nations as such (Isa. 2:4, Ezek. 37:21,22).
(M)The mystery concerns individuals (Rom. 10:12,13, II Cor. 5:14-17).

(P)Prophecy concerns blessings, both material and spiritual, on earth (Isa. 2:3,4, 11:1-9, etc.).
(M)The mystery concerns "all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies" (Eph. 1:3, Col. 3:1-3).

(P)Prophecy concerns Christ's coming to the earth (Isa. 59:20, Zech. 14:4).
(M)The mystery explains Christ's present absence from the earth (Eph. 1:20-23, Col. 3:1-3).

(P)In prophecy salvation by grace through faith alone is not contemplated.
(M)Salvation by grace through faith alone lies at the very heart of the mystery (Rom. 3:21-26, 4:5, Eph. 2:8,9).

(P)The proclamation of the prophetic program committed particularly to the twelve (Matt. 10:5-7, Acts 1:6-8, 3:19-26).
(M)The proclamation of the mystery committed particularly to Paul (Eph. 3:1-3,8,9, Col. 1:24-27).

(P)The prophetic program revealed through many of God's servants (Luke 1:70, II Pet. 1:21).
(M)The mystery revealed through one man: Paul (Gal. 1:1,11,12, 2:2,7,9, Eph. 3:2,3).10

(P)Old testament writers frequently did not understand the prophecies made known through them (Dan. 12:8-10, I Pet. 1:10-12).
(M)Paul both understood and longed that others might understand the mystery revealed through him. (Eph. 1:15-23, 3:14-21, Col 1:9-10, 2:1-3).
 
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Danoh

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Most of these kinds of questions have long since been deal with to one extant or another. Thus, what's needed is sort of a clearing house where those both new to, as well as those more familiar with the Mid-Acts Perspective, might point/turn to for the various likeminded perspectives on any of the questions.

Another resource needed would deal with principles needing to be observed as one goes about attempting to sort one thing out or another.

But anyway, here are some posts, as a beginning answer to
your question, Everlearning1055. And Dispy, thanks for your feedback, bro -:)

http://www.christianforums.com/t3815466/

http://www.christianforums.com/t7343231/
 
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Danoh

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Whatever became of Terrel? Though I found some things I did not agree with on, while reading some of his posts (he was before my time on here) his posts indicated one Scripturally studied in light of The Mystery, brother!

Perhaps he moved on. It can be quite tiresome dealing with the same issues over, and over, and over, only to have to once more, as the next breed of commentary and or own notions fed individuals crop up.

Just yesterday, a friend asked me "where is this mystery in Church History?" I was just about to go into all that when I remembered 'wait a minute, that indicates a focus on the WRONG source - Christ had to deal with that mentality, Paul had to, and Replacement/Reformed Theology has made it its chief idol - nope, not going there - "Nevertheless, what saith the Scripture?" I asked him.'

Turned out his own/coupled with commentaries fed way of sorting these things out was all he cared to know, and so, Acts 3:19 - which GREATLY differs from Romans 5:11- was/remained his "gospel."

Point is HOW we look at these various issues affects the logic through which we look at them. As logic, our God-given ability in Adam to make sense of things was meant by Him to function, NOT within the context of "Yea hath God said" but of "Yea - God HATH!"

We continue to fail to learn from how Adan and Eve failed to apply the gift of making sense of two and two - no wonder we end up at our own - two and equals three!
 
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Most of these kinds of questions have long since been deal with to one extant or another. Thus, what's needed is sort of a clearing house where those both new to, as well as those more familiar with the Mid-Acts Perspective, might point/turn to for the various likeminded perspectives on any of the questions.

Another resource needed would deal with principles needing to be observed as one goes about attempting to sort one thing out or another.

But anyway, here are some posts, as a beginning answer to
your question, Everlearning1055. And Dispy, thanks for your feedback, bro -:)

links removed because I'm not allowed

:confused: No disrespect meant, but those threads gave me a headache. I can't follow much of what Terral says at all, sorry. Guess I'll have to try again later.

It's kind of easier, I see now, to be Covenant in theology. There are not nearly so many fine points and hairs to be split nor rabbit trails to follow.

At times like this, I have to wonder why rightly dividing the Word of truth has to be so dad-burned complicated and convoluted. :help:

Sorry, Danoh. I'll go try to read the rest of Things That Differ.
 
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Danoh

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You're right; the guy is all over the place. I tend to be that way myself and he still gave me a headache. As one Felix related to Paul in Acts "much study hath made thee mad," lol

Now watch me split a hair - did Felix mean "insane" or Mid Acts Dispensational - just kidding, lol

Still, I think I'll leave Terral's link up as he has wat too much to say that is not only sound, but superior to the soundness of other M.A.D.s, including what soundness I might have. Just wish he'd have better broken his points apart. Like Dispy does, for example. Still, he leaves us both in the dust.

Well, but for his misread of Romans 1's "gospel of God" and one or two other points.

Its how those who either never end up at, or stray from, Mid-Acts, end up where they do - their consistent misunderstanding of Paul's quoting of Israel's prophets.

Stam covers the correct principle in his "Things That Differ" - that distinction between Veetical and Horizontal truth (but which he said way to little of).

Basically, some truths are vertical: they only apply in one place. For example, Noah's gospel - "Build an ark, Noah, I'm going to flood the world."

Vertical: "I'll never do that again, Noah."

Horizontal: "The righteousness of God is revealed against ALL (Gen. - Rev.) Unrighteousness."

"But NOW the righteousness of God" (horizontal truth) WITHOUT the Law (vertical truth) is manifested; even the righteousness of God (horizontal truth) witnessed by the law and the prophets" (vertical truth).

Paul's use of Israel's writings makes heavy use of this Two-Fold Principle, the ignorance of which results in fusing together those "things that differ."
 
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Danoh

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How to distinguish between Vertical (applies on one place, not in another) and Horizontal Truth (applies in all places) - its "dividing" line itself depends on various factors.

When, for example, the demons Legion asked the Lord "are you come to judge us BEFORE the TIME?" obviously, they were speaking of a Vertical Truth. He did not judge them then.

While, in 2 Tim. 2:15 - 18, the error Paul relates Hymanaeus and Phylitus have fallen prey to is one of Vertical Truth misplaced as to TIME. In their "saying that the ressurection (obviously yet future) is PAST already."

While Christ's "I WILL BUILD my church" (assembling of people to a specific intent) is obviously a Vertical reference to a truth which was then horizontal, in that said "building" referred, not to some future point in time as to when, for He had already been building it. Thus His "I will build" referred to the foundation He was already building it on - the confession on the part of Israel that "Thou art the Christ that was prophesied to our fathers: Thou art the Son of God, the King of Israel" - just read all of John chapters one and fifteen.
 
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glen55

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Were there in fact two Churches?

The Little Flock (composed of kingdom believers) and the Church the Body of Christ (began with Paul preaching the Mystery)?

It an Allegorical teaching on the temple the human body, the first born under the physical, the second born the spirit under the spiritual. The twins through scripture follow the same pattern, which is found in other cultures like the two wolves in us etc.................
 
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glen55

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Whatever became of Terrel? Though I found some things I did not agree with on, while reading some of his posts (he was before my time on here) his posts indicated one Scripturally studied in light of The Mystery, brother!

Perhaps he moved on. It can be quite tiresome dealing with the same issues over, and over, and over, only to have to once more, as the next breed of commentary and or own notions fed individuals crop up.

Just yesterday, a friend asked me "where is this mystery in Church History?" I was just about to go into all that when I remembered 'wait a minute, that indicates a focus on the WRONG source - Christ had to deal with that mentality, Paul had to, and Replacement/Reformed Theology has made it its chief idol - nope, not going there - "Nevertheless, what saith the Scripture?" I asked him.'

Turned out his own/coupled with commentaries fed way of sorting these things out was all he cared to know, and so, Acts 3:19 - which GREATLY differs from Romans 5:11- was/remained his "gospel."

Point is HOW we look at these various issues affects the logic through which we look at them. As logic, our God-given ability in Adam to make sense of things was meant by Him to function, NOT within the context of "Yea hath God said" but of "Yea - God HATH!"

We continue to fail to learn from how Adan and Eve failed to apply the gift of making sense of two and two - no wonder we end up at our own - two and equals three!

Terral Black star! Youtube channel.
 
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