Two churches?

[Biblewriter]

any).And the concept of two churches seems to me to fly in the face of Jesus' words in Matthew 16:
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


I keep thinking I'm missing something here I know the Mystery wasn't revealed until later, so Jesus would probably not have said "upon this Rock I'll build one of my churches".



I guess what I'm saying is, I'm still struggling with the two church concept.

And well you should struggle with this concept for when the church actually began is immaterial. "The little flock" became "the church." The concept that there are two churches is directly contrary to the Holy Spirit's words in very many places:

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
John 10:14-16

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
Romans 1:16-17

5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
Romans 12:5

4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.
5 Now may the God of patience and comfort grant you to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus,
6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
7 Therefore receive one another, just as Christ also received us, to the glory of God.
Romans 15:4-7

15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say.
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.
1 Corinthians 10:15-17

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13

22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.
23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,
24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,
25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
1 Corinthians 12:22-27

25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:25-29

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 1:7-14 13

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Ephesians 2:13-22

1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,
2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love,
3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians 4:1-6

15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful.
Colossians 3:15

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hebrews 2:10-11

 

[Danoh]

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

 

[Danoh]

As for who said OTHER "children of God" are that are said to be scattered, consider Ezekiel, chapters 34 and 37 and passages like Daniel 9:7's "the men OF JUDAH, and to the inhabitants OF JERUSALEM, and unto ALL ISRAEL, that are near, AND THAT ARE FAR OFF, through ALL THE COUNTRIES whither thou hast driven THEM, because of THEIR trespass that THEY have trespassed against THEE."

Keep in mind, the Lord mentioned said "other sheep" within the context of Daniel's prophecy concerning Him. Its why, for example, He instructed His disciples they were to forgive one another "until seventy times seven" Matt. 18:22.

 

[Danoh]

Also, consider studying out what Christ meant by "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" when is it that what said gates are even now holding back what they are will attempt to prevail against whom it will?

T-H-E... A-P-O-C-A-L-Y-P-S-E...

Daniel 7, 8... Rev. 12, 13.

 

[Biblewriter]

If the "other church" you are talking about is Israel, my only argument with you is that this is a technically incorrect use of scriptural terms. For Israel is not "another church," but a distinctly different group.

Israel, as a nation, is currently under discipline, and all of Israel that at the present time become saved (through faith in the Lord Jesus) become part of the one body, the church. But after the church is gone, God will again take up Israel as a nation, increasing the discipline to the point that they will finally repent. And when that repentance is complete, He will deliver and bless the few that have survived. But at that time, the entire church will be with the Lord in heaven.

 

[Bro in Christ]

Heb 11:1-40 why do we have the best salvation ? vs 40... 2 peter 1:4

 

[Bro in Christ]

and since the best ... who is better and a good salvation?

 

[Danoh]

You Acts 2 Dispensationalists are our (Mid-Acts Dispensationalists) fellow laborers. We share an early "recovery" history. We Mid-Actsers greatly respect this common heritage (well, some of us do).

So I say the following from that - you really need to consider studying out afresh what the Lord meant by His words to Peter - both as to His "upon thus rock I will build my church" as well as to His "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Our understanding of that (Mid-Acts) differs from Acts 2 Dispensationalism's due to further recovery of these lost truths that passages like Romans 15:8 made necessary - "Now I [Paul, "the Apostle of the Gentiles," 11:13] say that Jesus Christ WAS a minister OF THE CIRCUMCISION for the truth OF GOD, to CONFIRM the promises made UNTO THE FATHERS..."

He is speaking of the Lord's EARTHLY ministry "to the lost sheep OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL," Mathew - John.

Which "truth OF GOD" He, midway through Acts had a new, completely unexpected Apostle - of the GENTILES: Paul - GOD had planned to have reveal He had put on hold midway through Acts "UNTIL the fulness of" this "GENTILE" salvation DIRECTLY rather than THROUGH Israel [Isaiah 2:1-5, and Acts 3:25, 26, for example] "be come in... And so all ISRAEL shall [then] be saved - AS IT IS WRITTEN..." Rom. 11:25-29.

The Lord was speaking of HIS sheep - of a people ALREADY His. Which, per Ephesians 2, was NOT Gentiles, as they were "at that time, WITHOUT hope, without God IN THE WORLD," and thus "WITHOUT Christ - STRANGERS FROM the Covenants OF PROMISE" Eph. 2.

Acts 2 Dispensationalism continues to read its OLD premise into passages it has continued to refuse to re-visit in light of these later recoveries made obvious by said passages when we once more apply the Berean test to what we have held, no matter where that leads.

FACT OF THE MATTER IS that the "rock" the Lord was referring to is THE VERY SAME confession described in John 1 by those very same CIRCUMCISION Apostles - "we have found him of whom MOSES IN THE LAW, AND THE PROPHETS DID WRITE, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph... the Son of God: thou art THE KING OF ISRAEL," John 1:45, 49.

That is the "my church" He was then referring to - one comprised of TRULY Messianic Israelites. Truly in the sense of their ACTUALLY having believed that He was ISRAEL'S PROPHESIED Messiah and King, Acts 1-5, for further WORD to this FACT.

That is NOT the Body of Christ. Israel is NOT His Body - His BODY is His Body and the "church" [assembly of people] this - HIS - Body is comprised of is NOT Israel AFTER THE FLESH.

BUT, you have to re-study these things AFRESH not GAINSAY them just because they do not match the Acts 2 Paradigm.

Respectfully, Danoh

 

[Bro in Christ]

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

this is within the body of Christ which is a gracious position

2 peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us,

in heb 11:1-39 notice the times of all these saints

 

[Danoh]

When not rightly divided as to their respective timing, those things apear to be speaking of the same things. But the fact is that Peter and the writer of Hebrews CONSISTENTLY speak of promises which; though realized by Christ on their behalf, they await a future day, and of their need to endure unto His appearing for their reality in their lives, while Paul: both ALONE as well as CONSISTENTLY speaks of our [Body] promises as ours NOW.

One very simple example is the CONTRAST between the promise at Acts 3:19, 20 which Romans 11:25-29 later asserted God has put on hold "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" and our [Body] realization of it - "the atonement" "NOW," Rom. 5:11.

You are confusing 1st Century, MESSIANIC Believers - "they OF THE CIRCUMCISION which believed" Acts 10: 45, Peter's Acts 2 and 3 MESSIANIC message - that Jesus was THEIR promised Messiah - you are confusing them with those Jews who believed only AFTER the Spirit concluded that nation "uncircumcised in heart and ears," Acts 7:51, and thus, "concluded under sin" with the Gentiles, now had to believe Paul's "gospel of the UNcircumcision," Gal. 2:7-9, as "the gospel of the Circumcision" [Edification Aspect: Their Circumcision Instruction in Righteousnes - Hebrews - Revelation, Rom. 11:25-39; Gal. 2:7-9] was now confined to "the Circumcision" - those who had believed its promise BEFORE God cut it off til "the gospel of the UNcircumcision" has achieved its intended fulness.

Why do you think the Twelve speak of Christ's RETURN while Paul alone speaks of our catching up TO Christ?

Just try, if but for a moment, to look at things this way - see if, all of a sudden, all sorts of passages you have often wondered about all of a sudden begin to become clear, as Israel is allowed its promises and the Body its own. Just try that, see if the resulting paradigm shift doesn't begin to kick in.

If nothing else, you will at least have a basis of somewhat understanding the difference between Acts 3:21's "spoken" and Rom. 16:25's "kept secret."

Respectfully, Danoh

 

[Bro in Christ]

When not rightly divided as to their respective timing, those things apear to be speaking of the same things. But the fact is that Peter and the writer of Hebrews CONSISTENTLY speak of promises which; though realized by Christ on their behalf, they await a future day, and of their need to endure unto His appearing for their reality in their lives, while Paul: both ALONE as well as CONSISTENTLY speaks of our [Body] promises as ours NOW.

One very simple example is the CONTRAST between the promise at Acts 3:19, 20 which Romans 11:25-29 later asserted God has put on hold "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" and our [Body] realization of it - "the atonement" "NOW," Rom. 5:11.

You are confusing 1st Century, MESSIANIC Believers - "they OF THE CIRCUMCISION which believed" Acts 10: 45, Peter's Acts 2 and 3 MESSIANIC message - that Jesus was THEIR promised Messiah - you are confusing them with those Jews who believed only AFTER the Spirit concluded that nation "uncircumcised in heart and ears," Acts 7:51, and thus, "concluded under sin" with the Gentiles, now had to believe Paul's "gospel of the UNcircumcision," Gal. 2:7-9, as "the gospel of the Circumcision" [Edification Aspect: Their Circumcision Instruction in Righteousnes - Hebrews - Revelation, Rom. 11:25-39; Gal. 2:7-9] was now confined to "the Circumcision" - those who had believed its promise BEFORE God cut it off til "the gospel of the UNcircumcision" has achieved its intended fulness.

Why do you think the Twelve speak of Christ's RETURN while Paul alone speaks of our catching up TO Christ?

Just try, if but for a moment, to look at things this way - see if, all of a sudden, all sorts of passages you have often wondered about all of a sudden begin to become clear, as Israel is allowed its promises and the Body its own. Just try that, see if the resulting paradigm shift doesn't begin to kick in.

If nothing else, you will at least have a basis of somewhat understanding the difference between Acts 3:21's "spoken" and Rom. 16:25's "kept secret."

Respectfully, Danoh

Eph 2:8-9 states that our salvation is a gift.... did we chose God or did he chose us... eph 1:4 ....
in grace we are saved
in grace we grow ... 2 peter 3:18
in grace we are glorified romans 8:1

 

[Danoh]

Eph 2:8-9 states that our salvation is a gift.... did we chose God or did he chose us... eph 1:4 ....
in grace we are saved
in grace we grow ... 2 peter 3:18
in grace we are glorified romans 8:1

Our assertions point back to how we arrived at them. In this, your assertion as to the sense of Ephesians 1:4 is an indication of how you yourself generally study things out.

I'd say you might want to FIRST apply a bit more inductive study [information gathering from within the passages] BEFORE so quickly allowing yourself the premise you are deducing what you are about Eph. 1:4.

Paul is not asserting that God "hath chosen us" rather, WHAT God has chosen to do "IN Him" - IN His Son.

Paul is referring to something God pre-determined to do IN HIS SON upon a certain condition being met.

How that He had chosen that those people "who FIRST trusted in Christ" He would then make them "holy" [separate them unto Himself from those who reject believing on His Son] and - get this wonder of wonders - that He would not only also conclude them as "without blame before Him" but "in love."

Paul is talking about a Mystery Grace that has to do with "a new creature" IN CHRIST Himself.

Not Israel's PROPHESIED Grace, Matthew 1; Mark 1; Luke 2; Luke 24; John 1; 1 Ptr. 1, rather, he is talking about a MYSTERY Grace - "which FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD hath been HID IN GOD..." Eph. 3:9.

This is about "a NEW creature" - that "church" or an assembling of LOST people that He would one day call out to trust in His Son AFTER Paul; a people out of whom He would form His Son's spiritual Body - a new creature which would be, unlike Israel's DESTINED role as Christ's SERVANTS, would, instead, be CO-HEIRS WITH Christ IN THE HEAVENLIES - SEATED THERE WITH HIM the moment we FIRST trust in Christ.

Confuse that all you want with Israel's OWN promises. But they are not the same.

 

[Bro in Christ]

john 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

john 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1 cor 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1 peter 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious

 

[Bro in Christ]

Chosen is equal to salvation ... because with out God... Father eph 1:4 Son on the cross Holy Spirit Jn 16:7-11 ... no one gets saved .. thus john 6:29 echo's true

 

[Danoh]

Chosen is equal to salvation ... because with out God... Father eph 1:4 Son on the cross Holy Spirit Jn 16:7-11 ... no one gets saved .. thus john 6:29 echo's true

"Chosen" equals "salvation," huh?

John 5:
70: Jesus answered them, Have I not chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71. He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Again, the choosing speaks of a determined will on His part to call men to Him "by the gospel." Paul later writes that God "WILL HAVE ALL men to be saved," 1 Tim. 2:4.

This speaks of "His good pleasure." In other words, of what would please Him - that we "CHOOSE life," Deut. 30:19.

Those who choose Him - He THEN chooses them back; He then acts on what He has predetermined to do - to "conform them to the image of his Son," Rom. 8:29.

How does He bring about this conforming, or living expression of His Son's image in us?

As we walk in an understanding of "the Mystery of His will," Eph. 1:9; 5:17, even during the various infirmities and tribulations of this world, Rom. 5:2-5, as we "with patience" hope, for that we do not yet see the reality of - the redemption of our physical body, of its one day being shaped like unto His glorious body - all these things, these sufferings - of this world - of "such as is common to man," 1 Cor. 10:13, "work together [with that understanding] for good" - that is, together, they conform us by them to the image of Christ - by such as is common to man when viewed by the Believer as able to work for good in us, if we will but rest in our hope, in this hope that is now ours because we are in Christ, Gal. 5:5, because we chose life, instead of death, when we heard the gospel, 1 Thess. 1:2-6.

The issue is that there is NOTHING we can DO, in terms of our WORKS. And thus, that ALL we can do is CHOOSE against our inclination not to, to BELIEVE that HE ALONE ACCOMPLISHED the required WORK, Rom. 5.

Faith ALONE the only evidence; the only substance. As with Abraham; who "AGAINST hope, BELIEVED IN hope," Heb. 11:1; Rom. 4:18.

This is why it is referred to as "faith" and "the faith" - because it is about CHOOSING TO believe - AGAINST our own inclination not to, 1 Thess. 2:12, 13.

 

[Bro in Christ]

within context ... of verses used