Two Aspects of Salvation (Believers Need to Be Concerned With):

[Buzzard3]

Have you ever heard someone refer to the Mosaic law as different than the "law of Christ" or "law of love"? Have you ever heard that explanation? The law of Christ is still morally rooted; (of course God is a moral) but the purpose of the Mosaic law as opposed to those born of the Spirit of God is a different paradigm.

My understanding is that the moral laws of Moses (eg, the Ten Commandments) are eternal and therefore apply to Christians ... and that that's what Jesus meant when he said he did not come to abolish the Law (Matt 5:17).

Christians are commanded to love their neighbour, for example, which comes from Leviticus 19. From that commandment, other Mosaic commandments are implied:

"Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10)

As for "the law of Christ", I assume it is this:

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:34-35)

which seems to be a extension of the commandment to love one's neighbor (Lev 19).

 

[The Righterzpen]

So you have to keep His commandments to show that you truly love God.

Well I guess you're the only one Scripture applies to than because you're the only one I know who has no sin..... Now aren't you?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Since you claim to be instructed by the Bible. Matthew 5:37

Did Jesus say “yes” or ”no” to Pilate’s questions below here?

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king.” (John 18:37).

“Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee? And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.” (Matthew 27:13-14).

Surely Jesus did not violate Matthew 5:37.
In other words, you don’t know the Scriptures. Why? See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well I guess you're the only one Scripture applies to than because you're the only one I know who has no sin..... Now aren't you?

I am just trying to wrap my head around why you even reject the words of Jesus in John 14:15, and John 15:10. Do you not know that Jesus said if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day? (See: John 12:48). This is why speaking to you is like speaking to a brick wall. You do not heed the Scriptures when it refutes your false beliefs.

Your goal is to make it about me, when the faith is actually derived from God’s Word. The Bible is the standard.
But you cannot defend your own beliefs when confronted with the Bible. Therein lies the problem.

 

[The Righterzpen]

My understanding is that the moral laws of Moses (eg, the Ten Commandments) are eternal and therefore apply to Christians ... and that that's what Jesus meant when he said he did not come to abolish the Law (Matt 5:17).

Well, that's an interesting take on that. I think you are correct in that obviously the moral standard of God is eternal. Although I see the Mosaic law as a reflection of God's eternal moral standard. The Mosaic law is the "cart" and not the "horse". If that makes sense.

Now Matthew 5:17; Jesus didn't abolish the law; but he did fulfill it. And one could argue there's an application of fulfilling it which doesn't come to final conclusion until the recreation of the new heavens and new earth. Although it is also true that the law is the measure by which sinners are condemned; thus it does make sense that for the unregenerate it would remain in effect until the end of time.

So I think in general we agree here; we've just come to our conclusions from different angles.

Christians are commanded to love their neighbour, for example, which comes from Leviticus 19. From that commandment, other Mosaic commandments are implied:

Yes, the Mosaic law is like the "cliff notes" of God's eternal moral standard.

As for "the law of Christ", I assume it is this:

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:34-35)

I was thinking more Romans 7:25, Romans 8:2 and Romans 10:4. There's a mess of similar verses in Galatians also.
But the one you've quoted here ties into Romans 13:10.

I just typed into Bible Gateway's concordance "law of Christ" and got 12 verses. There may be more that are applicable. But as far as King James translation; those are the ones that "ping" in the concordance wording. King James in the wording I'm using because it's the version I'm most familiar with. But what ever transition you are familiar with may have more relevant verses than just 12.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Did Jesus say “yes” or ”no” to Pilate’s questions below here?

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king.” (John 18:37).

“Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee? And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.” (Matthew 27:13-14).

Surely Jesus did not violate Matthew 5:37.
In other words, you don’t know the Scriptures. Why? See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4.

Well, apparently you're right. I don't know Scripture.
But what can I say? You have to be the one who's right because you don't have any sin and I do.

Right? I have to be wrong and you can be the only one who's correct because I have to be sinless to agree with you.
Correct?

 

[The Righterzpen]

I am just trying to wrap my head around why you even reject the words of Jesus in John 14:15, and John 15:10. Do you not know that Jesus said if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day? (See: John 12:48). This is why speaking to you is like speaking to a brick wall. You do not heed the Scriptures when it refutes your false beliefs.

Your goal is to make it about me, when the faith is actually derived from God’s Word. The Bible is the standard.
But you cannot defend your own beliefs when confronted with the Bible. Therein lies the problem.

It MUST be because I'm a sinner and you have to have more understanding than I do because you don't have any sin!

Right?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My understanding is that the moral laws of Moses (eg, the Ten Commandments) are eternal and therefore apply to Christians ... and that that's what Jesus meant when he said he did not come to abolish the Law (Matt 5:17).

Jesus did not come to abrogate God's Eternal Moral Laws (like do not murder, do not hate, do not commit adultery, do not steal, etc.). Jesus nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (like the Saturday Sabbath, the death penalty for disobeying God's laws, circumcision, the dietary laws, etc.) (See Colossians 2:14-17). Jesus says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17). So Jesus did not come to destroy all forms of Law and its consequences but He came to fulfill them into their true intended purpose with the commands given to us within the New Testament. These many commands in the NT are based on love. Love God and love your neighbor.

The Ten simply do not exist anymore.

Yes, 9 out of the 10 still apply. The Saturday Sabbath is no longer a command for believers under the New Covenant.
Acts 15 is particularly noteworthy. It was a counsel that said that Gentile Christians do not have to keep the Law of Moses.

Hebrews 7:12 says the law has changed.

 

[The Righterzpen]

which seems to be a extension of the commandment to love one's neighbor (Lev 19).

I should make a qualifier here on Romans "law of sin and death". I don't believe the intent is to say that the Mosaic law is "the law of sin and death" because Paul says in another place something to the effect that the unrighteousness of man doesn't make the law evil.
But the consequence of the Mosaic law applied to fallen man is "the law of sin and death".

Does that make sense?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, apparently you're right. I don't know Scripture.
But what can I say? You have to be the one who's right because you don't have any sin and I do.

Right? I have to be wrong and you can be the only one who's correct because I have to be sinless to agree with you.
Correct?

You believe you must sin and still be saved and I have brought forth verses that refutes this false kind of thinking. You are not answering or explaining these verses. It’s that simple. Our standard is the Bible and not any one’s life. That is what you are failing to understand here.
You also keep crying about my wanting to be right as if that was my goal or intention. Look. I am not like you or anyone you know who may think this way. As I said before, I have let the Word of God correct me by my reading it and by others. So it’s not just a goal of my life to want to be right. I have already explained this to you, but you appear to not understand it.

 

[The Righterzpen]

@Buzzard3 - Now obviously too God's expectations of morality applied to humans long before it was formally codified by Moses. And thus I think the "extended version" Jesus describes of "the law" has always been in "the long view". Of which humans created in God's image have a conscience; which is a "temporal reflection" of God's eternal moral character.

Humans only bear the "reflection" because we are not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, immortal or eternal. Thus in a sense I think we have "The LAW" (the entirety of all that rules the cosmos). The Law (the moral standard of God's holiness) and "the law" (the written record of God's communication to man (The Scripture). Or in the case of the specific codification the OT.

 

[The Righterzpen]

You believe you must sin and still be saved and I have brought forth verses that refutes this false kind of thinking. You are not answering or explaining these verses. It’s that simple. Our standard is the Bible and not any one’s life. That is what you are failing to understand here.
You also keep crying about my wanting to be right as if that was my goal or intention. Look. I am not like you or anyone you know who may think this way. As I said before, I have let the Word of God correct me by my reading it and by others. So it’s not just a goal of my life to want to be right. I have already explained this to you, but you appear to not understand it.

How can I give an adequate answer to one who has no sin?
I have absolutely no way of understanding any of this until I become sinless like you.
You must be able to see that? I mean; after all; you have no sin. Right?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I should make a qualifier here on Romans "law of sin and death". I don't believe the intent is to say that the Mosaic law is "the law of sin and death" because Paul says in another place something to the effect that the unrighteousness of man doesn't make the law evil.
But the consequence of the Mosaic law applied to fallen man is "the law of sin and death".

Does that make sense?

The Mosaic Law is no more a binding contract because we are under a New covenant with new commands.
Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
The temple veil was torn from top to bottom and the Old system has ended.

Romans 8:2-4

2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.​

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:​

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.“​

​

Verse 2 is saying that Paul has been made free from the Old Law (i.e., the Law of Moses, the 613) by keeping this New Covenant Law in the sense that it kept him as a slave to sin while he was a part of the false Pharisee religion (Romans 7:14-24). The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is defined in verse 1. To see the full version of the verse, see it in the King James Bible.

Verse 3 is saying that what the Old Law (i.e., the Law of Moses, the 613) in that it was hard to obey, God the Father sent His Son Jesus Christ to die in our place to fulfill the Old Law.

Verse 4 is saying that there is a righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (i.e., the eternal Moral Law) like loving your neighbor (See: Romans 13:8-10) Which is fulfilled in us faithful believers who walk not after the flesh (sin) but who walk after the Holy Spirit (Which we can see in Galatians 6:8-9, and Romans 8:13; Also see Galatians 5:22-23).

 

[The Righterzpen]

You also keep crying about my wanting to be right as if that was my goal or intention.

Well how can you be anything other than right when you have no sin? Right? I know that it must be that you don't want to be so right all the time. You just can't help it because you have no sin.

Right?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How can I give an adequate answer to one who has no sin?
I have absolutely no way of understanding any of this until I become sinless like you.
You must be able to see that? I mean; after all; you have no sin. Right?

How can I give an answer to the one who believes they can sin and still be saved and who does not reply to verses that would give them the answer they seek?

I have absolutely no way of understanding your great knowledge until you convince me to fall before sin, which is of the devil, and cater to your evil belief of turning God’s grace into a license for immorality.

Surely you must be able to see the evil in your belief? I mean, after all, you believe you can sin like the devil and be saved, right?

 

[The Righterzpen]

The Mosaic Law is no more a binding contract because we are under a New covenant with new commands.
Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
The temple veil was torn from top to bottom and the Old system has ended.

Romans 8:2-4

2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.​

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:​

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.“​

​

Verse 2 is saying that Paul has been made free from the Old Law (i.e., the Law of Moses, the 613) by keeping this New Covenant Law in the sense that it kept him as a slave to sin while he was a part of the false Pharisee religion (Romans 7:14-24). The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is defined in verse 1. To see the full version of the verse, see it in the King James Bible.

Verse 3 is saying that what the Old Law (i.e., the Law of Moses, the 613) in that it was hard to obey, God the Father sent His Son Jesus Christ to die in our place to fulfill the Old Law.

Verse 4 is saying that there is a righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (i.e., the eternal Moral Law) like loving your neighbor (See: Romans 13:8-10) Which is fulfilled in us faithful believers who walk not after the flesh (sin) but who walk after the Holy Spirit (Which we can see in Galatians 6:8-9, and Romans 8:13; Also see Galatians 5:22-23).

(Thought I just said that....????) Obviously I can't be right though; because I'm a sinner.

 

[The Righterzpen]

How can I give an answer to the one who believes they can sin and still be saved and who does not reply to verses that would give them the answer they seek?

I have absolutely no way of understanding your great knowledge until you convince me to fall before sin, which is of the devil, and cater to your evil belief of turning God’s grace into a license for immorality.

Surely you must be able to see the evil in your belief? I mean, after all, you believe you can sin like the devil and be saved, right?

You can't! Surely as someone who has no sin; you must know that! You must know that there's no way I can attain to your incredible level of knowledge unless I become sinless just like you.

Right?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well how can you be anything other than right when you have no sin? Right? I know that it must be that you don't want to be so right all the time. You just can't help it because you have no sin.

Right?

Actually, the Bible says this if you read it recently.

1 Timothy 6:3-4

3 ”If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;​

4 He is proud, knowing nothing,…”​

​

Verse 3 is saying that if any person teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ (like you), and they teach contrary to the doctrine of godliness (like you because you teach you can sin and still be saved) then verse 4 states that such a person is proud and they know nothing.

This is dangerous because James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
So if you speak contrary to the words of Jesus and godliness in the Bible (Which we know you do), then you are proud, and God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. So you don’t even have grace to be saved if you believe you can sin and still be saved.

 

[The Righterzpen]

@Bible Highlighter - You have attained to the status of God Himself! Because that's what it means to be a mortal man in a fallen world who has no sin.

Does this mean you were conceived by the Holy Spirit too?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

(Thought I just said that....????) Obviously I can't be right though; because I'm a sinner.

So you believe Romans 7:14-24 is in reference to Paul speaking as Saul when he was in the false Pharisee religion?