Please open your eyes to see the conditions in red.2 Thess 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because
God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father,
who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,
17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.
Please open your eyes to see the conditions in red.
The BAC may (has permission to) and can (has ability to) NOT do these things!
Anyone can choose anyone for anything, but the second party may and can fail to do what he/she was chosen to do.
E.G. Do you think Paul's prayer in 16-17 must be answered successfully?
Sanctification is a long process of co-operating with the Holy Spirit.
Everything throughout the Scriptures is about a co-operative effort between God and man.
(Except the Creation and such.)
.
Just hit me ...Behold all things are new for a new creation.
How does one overcomer do?
1 jn 5:5 ....
who is not ... john 16:9
OK, let's keep "RT" out of it. Do you believe that God chooses who will believe?I never suggested that God chooses who will believe based on "their view of election".
I think you're mixing ideas. Of course God chooses unconditionally. He doesn't discriminate between believers; He chooses ALL of them to save. Even the stinky ones.RT believe in unconditional salvation. If God chose on a preset set of circumstances, it would not be unconditional.
That is your right, but it's there, nevertheless. God saves believers.You are suggesting a cause and effect of a specific order in the 1 Cor. scripture, and I don't believe that that is the case.
I know you didn't. I was asking why can't you believe that God gives only believers to Jesus.I never said he did.
What verses actually teach that people are regenerated before faith? Calvinists keep making the claim, but I've never seen any clear Scripture to back that up.Nobody believes before they are regenerated. All are degenerate and have no belief.
OK, so you DO believe that God chooses who will believe. What verses make that clear?God selects them, gives them to Christ to be saved, turns their hearts to Him and gives them saving faith and justifies them.
Like the reformed Puritans??Greek Lexicon :: G1589 (NKJV)
The word 'election' in 1 Thess 1 means
That our election is vehemently denied by persons is of no surprise.
It strikes fear into some, because they may think they are not elect
Yes.OK, let's keep "RT" out of it. Do you believe that God chooses who will believe?
If you choose to be crass about it, fine, then yes, a random crapshoot.A random crapshoot, then??RT believes that God chooses who will be saved based on no criteria.
I believe Paul's answer to the jailer clearly indicates a condition. The jailer asked what he MUST DO to be saved, and Paul's answer was to believe. That is a condition. Faith.
Actually, He does. The Bible is clear that our faith is a gift, imparted at the time He turns our hearts to himself. Read Ephesians 2. "For by grace you are saved by faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".I think you're mixing ideas. Of course God chooses unconditionally. He doesn't discriminate between believers; He chooses ALL of them to save. Even the stinky ones.That's an unconditional choice.
But, does God choose who will believe? That's the main issue.
That is your right, but it's there, nevertheless. God saves believers.
He doesn't "make" believers and then save them. He saves those who believe.
I do see a cause and effect. I see God turning our hearts to him, gifting us with faith, and us believing.I don't see why you don't see clearly a cause and effect; man believes, God saves. Is it that you maybe just don't want to?
Because that is not what any of the scriptures say. They say that God gifts us faith when we are saved.I know you didn't. I was asking why can't you believe that God gives only believers to Jesus.
see aboveWhat verses actually teach that people are regenerated before faith? Calvinists keep making the claim, but I've never seen any clear Scripture to back that up.
The verses I listed (that you have copied here). And they do say exactly that. What do you think they say?OK, so you DO believe that God chooses who will believe. What verses make that clear?
Sorry, they don't say what RT claims. You may think they mean what RT claims, but they neither mean nor say what RT claims.John 6:22-the end of the chapter, but specifically verses 37, 39, 44, and 65.
and even thou we were ... He saved some ... 2 cor 4:3-6
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously?
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Glorify God in Body and Spirit
12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For the two, He says, shall become one flesh. 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[c] and in your spirit, which are Gods.
Wow. Yet, no verses to support that.Yes.
Not crass. Just shootin' straight. And again, wow. How does God get any glory from randomness? It makes no sense, and there is no Scripture to support these beliefs.If you choose to be crass about it, fine, then yes, a random crapshoot.
Faith is a noun. He gives the information that we are supposed to believe. So in that sense only, He does "give the faith". But there is no Scripture to support that God causes anyone to believe. Believing is what man does, and yes, it is THE condition for salvation.It isn't a condition if God gives you the faith.
Actually, not. God does not "make' believers. There is no Scripture to support that claim.Actually, He does.
Neither are true. The gift is ALWAYS salvation or eternal life. Rom 6:23The Bible is clear that our faith is a gift, imparted at the time He turns our hearts to himself.
The "it" refers back to being saved, not our faith. Sorry.Read Ephesians 2. "For by grace you are saved by faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".
Pretty much just a puppet show, then.I do see a cause and effect. I see God turning our hearts to him, gifting us with faith, and us believing.
Actually, there are no Scriptures that say that. They DO say that He saves those who believe.Because that is not what any of the scriptures say. They say that God gifts us faith when we are saved.
They say what the words say. Let's consider ch 6.The verses I listed (that you have copied here). And they do say exactly that. What do you think they say?
Pretty much just a puppet show, then.
.
Pretty much just a puppet show, then.
It doesn't work at all. Your view is not even close. I REJECT salvation by works. How does that work for boiling down what I don't believe?And you pretty much believe in salvation by works. How does that work for boiling it down to a one-sentence summary?
Thanks for the honesty. But, honestly, there is no puppet show in Scripture. Seems you'v been reading off the WRONG script, or something.At least at our puppet show the puppet MASTER is pulling the strings.
What is truly backward is your silly understanding of my view. How is man "pulling any strings" by placing trust in Jesus Christ for salvation? Can you explain that?A fan of ya'll's puppet show, claims the puppets supposedly pull the puppet MASTER's strings!! That's just wardsback if you ask me.
Frankly, your understanding of causation is as faulty as your puppet show.Btw, do you deny the "law of causation"? Here's a challenge, name just one person place or thing (other than God) that is uncaused (uneffected by causation)?
I've given you clear examples of how flawed your logic is.Please do tell, Science btw depends on this law to make dependable repeatable hypothesis'.
Oh, well. Your view wasn't even close. I guess we are even.It doesn't work at all. Your view is not even close. I REJECT salvation by works. How does that work for boiling down what I don't believe?
It was the only thing that jumped out at me to answer. Besides, I figured that if you had any real intention of discussing things, you wouldn't have degraded that part of the discussion to a pithy oned-liner.How come you ignored most of my post, and just focused on 1 line? Too difficult to deal with?
I picked something out of the air, like you did.btw, how did you come up with your faulty view of my view when I boiled down your view to a puppet show?
It's only a puppet show if you are being forced to act against your will. When God turns your heart to himself, your will aligns with his. Therefore you are not acting against your will.And please explain HOW your view isn't a puppet show, given what you did say.
Apolegetic warrior even admitted that it IS a puppet show.
Thanks for the honesty.
But, honestly, there is no puppet show in Scripture. Seems you'v been reading off the WRONG script, or something.
What is truly backward is your silly understanding of my view. How is man "pulling any strings" by placing trust in Jesus Christ for salvation? Can you explain that?
Frankly, your understanding of causation is as faulty as your puppet show.
Just because God created angels and humanity, and they sinned does NOT mean that God caused the sin. That is beyond absurd.
Gun companies manufacture guns. Evil people use guns to kill people. Who caused the murder; the shooter or the maker of the gun. I'd guess you would vote for the maker of the gun, by your logic.
Are auto companies guilty when drunk drivers kill people? No. Not even the liquor or beer makers are held guilty. Only the person who drank the junk before they killed someone.
I've given you clear examples of how flawed your logic is.
...
Actually, He does. The Bible is clear that our faith is a gift, imparted at the time He turns our hearts to himself. Read Ephesians 2. "For by grace you are saved by faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".
Because that is not what any of the scriptures say. They say that God gifts us faith when we are saved.
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