Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[stan1953]

Sad that so much of FG's theology seems to be based on what is NOT found in scripture, rather than what is. It's called an argument from silence, which is an inherently weak argument. Not all theological understanding is summed up in nice neat little one-line verses. Some theological understandings must be mined, dug out of the Scriptures, like precious jewels, which are not found strewn about in a concrete parking lot, but are found underground, and must be freed from their surrounding matrix with effort, and labor. Just because one doesn't see something, doesn't mean it isn't there. And with theological truths, unless and until the Holy Spirit opens one's eyes, it won't be evident to them. To claim that what one doesn't see doesn't exist, is folly. There are depths of meaning and teaching in God's Word that have not been seen yet. There is depth to God's Word that we have not even glimpsed, or dreamed of. To demand that all truth must be reduced to neat little verses is to cheapen God's Word to soundbites. The Truths are there, whether one sees them or not.

Well look at that...NO scripture what-so-ever!

 

[OzSpen]

Sad that so much of FG's theology seems to be based on what is NOT found in scripture, rather than what is. It's called an argument from silence, which is an inherently weak argument. Not all theological understanding is summed up in nice neat little one-line verses. Some theological understandings must be mined, dug out of the Scriptures, like precious jewels, which are not found strewn about in a concrete parking lot, but are found underground, and must be freed from their surrounding matrix with effort, and labor. Just because one doesn't see something, doesn't mean it isn't there. And with theological truths, unless and until the Holy Spirit opens one's eyes, it won't be evident to them. To claim that what one doesn't see doesn't exist, is folly . seen yet. There is depth to God's Word that we have not even glimpsed, or dreamed of. To demand that all truth must be reduced to neat little verses is to cheapen God's Word to soundbites. The Truths are there, whether one sees them or not.

Brother,

You say that 'Some theological understandings must be mined, dug out of the Scriptures, like precious jewels, which are not found strewn about in a concrete parking lot, but are found underground, and must be freed from their surrounding matrix with effort, and labor'. Who are those who have the ability to mine, dig out of Scripture the precious jewels? Is this available to all believers, including Arminians and Calvinists, or is for a select group?

You say, 'There is depth to God's Word that we have not even glimpsed, or dreamed of'. To whom is this depth available? How is it obtained?

 

[adara likes sapphire]

because you have a desire to return you can be saved only i mean only obey what the bible says " 1 Timothy 6:3
If any man teach otherwise and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,"we are not to follow or sit under them repent read your bible pray For strength and deliverance continue in the Faith

 

[nobdysfool]

Brother,

You say that 'Some theological understandings must be mined, dug out of the Scriptures, like precious jewels, which are not found strewn about in a concrete parking lot, but are found underground, and must be freed from their surrounding matrix with effort, and labor'. Who are those who have the ability to mine, dig out of Scripture the precious jewels? Is this available to all believers, including Arminians and Calvinists, or is for a select group?

You say, 'There is depth to God's Word that we have not even glimpsed, or dreamed of'. To whom is this depth available? How is it obtained?

I can't tell whether you agree or disagree with what I have said. Who is it available to? Anyone who will empty themselves and seek for and ask the Holy spirit to illuminate their minds and hearts. Not for the purpose of argumentation or lording it over others, but for the purpose of illumination. It is not limited to Arminians or Calvinists as you falsely assume I must be implying. I am placing no limitations as to who it may be available to the people themselves put that limitation on such illumination by their own pride, their own impure motives, and failure to realize that they really know nothing, even if they have a string of degrees a mile long after their name. If you want to know the deeper things within the Scriptures, it will cost you something...but it will be worth it.

And to answer the question before it's asked (acerbically or otherwise), I am making no claims to possessing such knowledge, just pointing out that logically this must be so, because we are dealing with the Creator of the Universe, Who has made Himself known via His Word, both in the Person of Jesus the Christ, and in written form. He is infinitely deeper than we can fathom.

 

[stan1953]

No mining required...just plain study.

1 Cor 1:9-10
However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—

these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

This is exactly why Jesus promised the Holy Spirit so if people have a problem knowing what the Word Of God is conveying, it could be that they do NOT have the promised Holy Spirit as Paul also instructed in Acts 19:3-7

 

[FreeGrace2]

Re: UNO ... I know you have seen the 15 verses (in post 18) which warn that one's faith must continue until death.

Or…what?? Which verses tell us plainly that if faith doesn't continue, we aren't saved? Please show me any.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sad that so much of FG's theology seems to be based on what is NOT found in scripture, rather than what is. It's called an argument from silence, which is an inherently weak argument.

What a twist of truth. I've given MANY verses that actually SAYS what I believe, while RT CANNOT provide ANY verses that SAYS that God choose who will believe, or that Christ's death was ONLY for some, or that He didn't die for everyone.

Not all theological understanding is summed up in nice neat little one-line verses.

OK, so now you're backtracking and admitting that I HAVE provided verses. The disingenuous "neat little one-line verse" comment is petty. I HAVE verses that actually SAY what I believe, while RT CANNOT provide any verses that say what they believe about Christ's death, election, regeneration before faith, etc.

To demand that all truth must be reduced to neat little verses is to cheapen God's Word to soundbites. The Truths are there, whether one sees them or not.

More cheap shots. I've never demanded anything, so your words here are quite false.

As to the truth, why can't RT provide ANY verse that actually SAYS what RT believes and claims? Why? (not a demand, just a question)

 

[FreeGrace2]

What about those "being saved," ICor.1:18, ie, will spare you those that "shall be saved."

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

There are 3 tenses of "salvation", which I'm sure you know; past, present, and future. The "being saved" would include the present.

Old hopefully "being saved" Jack born into this full blown hypergrace era.

I "hope" you are using "hopefully" in the Biblical sense; that is, full and complete confidence! If not, you really don't have faith, which is complete confidence or trust.

btw, if you had a choice of eras, which would you prefer:
hypergrace era
hypograce era

 

[A New Dawn]

What a twist of truth. I've given MANY verses that actually SAYS what I believe, while RT CANNOT provide ANY verses that SAYS that God choose who will believe, or that Christ's death was ONLY for some, or that He didn't die for everyone.

John 6 says it multiple times (God chooses who will be saved. He gives them to Jesus to be saved. Jesus will save each and every one. And no one will come to Jesus or be saved whom God has not given to Jesus). I think that is close enough to what you are asking. And I doubt that "RT CANNOT provide ANY verses that SAYS that God choose who will believe, or that Christ's death was ONLY for some, or that He didn't die for everyone" is true. I'm sure that many have posted those scriptures from John 6 multiple times. I know I have.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 6 says it multiple times (God chooses who will be saved.

Yes, correct! But that's not at all the logical conclusion of reformed theology; that God chooses who will believe, based on their view of election. In fact 1 Cor 1:21 tells us that God is pleased to save those who believe; clearly He chooses who will be saved: believers only. I doubt that anyone can argue with that.

He gives them to Jesus to be saved.

How do you know that He gives them to Jesus BECAUSE they have believed and ARE saved???

Jesus will save each and every one.

Yes, He saves every believer.

And no one will come to Jesus or be saved whom God has not given to Jesus).

See above.

I think that is close enough to what you are asking. And I doubt that "RT CANNOT provide ANY verses that SAYS that God choose who will believe, or that Christ's death was ONLY for some, or that He didn't die for everyone" is true. I'm sure that many have posted those scriptures from John 6 multiple times. I know I have.

I've been asking for over a year, and no one has. If you have, it must have been in a thread or forum I haven't been in. Could you provide a few of them for me, please?

Remember, we're talking about verses that actually SAY what you are claiming.

 

[stan1953]

John 6 says it multiple times (God chooses who will be saved. He gives them to Jesus to be saved. Jesus will save each and every one. And no one will come to Jesus or be saved whom God has not given to Jesus). I think that is close enough to what you are asking. And I doubt that "RT CANNOT provide ANY verses that SAYS that God choose who will believe, or that Christ's death was ONLY for some, or that He didn't die for everyone" is true. I'm sure that many have posted those scriptures from John 6 multiple times. I know I have.

Big chapter...care to clarify which verses?

 

[A New Dawn]

Yes, correct! But that's not at all the logical conclusion of reformed theology; that God chooses who will believe, based on their view of election. In fact 1 Cor 1:21 tells us that God is pleased to save those who believe; clearly He chooses who will be saved: believers only. I doubt that anyone can argue with that.

I never suggested that God chooses who will believe based on "their view of election". RT believes that God chooses who will be saved based on no criteria. RT believe in unconditional salvation. If God chose on a preset set of circumstances, it would not be unconditional.

You are suggesting a cause and effect of a specific order in the 1 Cor. scripture, and I don't believe that that is the case.

How do you know that He gives them to Jesus BECAUSE they have believed and ARE saved???

I never said he did. Nobody believes before they are regenerated. All are degenerate and have no belief. God selects them, gives them to Christ to be saved, turns their hearts to Him and gives them saving faith and justifies them.

I've been asking for over a year, and no one has. If you have, it must have been in a thread or forum I haven't been in. Could you provide a few of them for me, please?

Remember, we're talking about verses that actually SAY what you are claiming.

John 6:22-the end of the chapter, but specifically verses 37, 39, 44, and 65.

 

[extraordinary]

Continuing to believe and confess Jesus as Lord wont be a problem
for those He has called, justified and will eventually glorify.

Continuing until death, n'est pas?

Good luck to you and yours during ...
UNO: heavy-duty Christian persecution, which is almost upon us here in the USA
DOS: intense pressure to take the mark of the beast, which is also coming soon

News Flash ... If even ONE BAC runs (or even walks) from the faith
to save his or her neck, OSAS goes straight into da dumpster!
Count on it happening soon ... before the very eyes of thouest.
.

 

[extraordinary]

You (nobdysfool) say,
'There is depth to God's Word that we have not even glimpsed, or dreamed of'.
To whom is this depth available? How is it obtained?

It is very difficult to obtain, if you do not have an open mind because ...
you have been deceived and brainwashed into believing one or more false doctrines.
.

 

[OzSpen]

It is very difficult to obtain, if you do not have an open mind because ...
you have been deceived and brainwashed into believing one or more false doctrines.
.

What are the false doctrines I could be believing that deceive and prevent me from obtaining this deeper knowledge of God?

 

[OzSpen]

I can't tell whether you agree or disagree with what I have said. Who is it available to? Anyone who will empty themselves and seek for and ask the Holy spirit to illuminate their minds and hearts. Not for the purpose of argumentation or lording it over others, but for the purpose of illumination. It is not limited to Arminians or Calvinists as you falsely assume I must be implying. I am placing no limitations as to who it may be available to the people themselves put that limitation on such illumination by their own pride, their own impure motives, and failure to realize that they really know nothing, even if they have a string of degrees a mile long after their name. If you want to know the deeper things within the Scriptures, it will cost you something...but it will be worth it.

And to answer the question before it's asked (acerbically or otherwise), I am making no claims to possessing such knowledge, just pointing out that logically this must be so, because we are dealing with the Creator of the Universe, Who has made Himself known via His Word, both in the Person of Jesus the Christ, and in written form. He is infinitely deeper than we can fathom.

Why do you need to mine anything more than what the plain meaning of the exegesis of the text states?

Mining more sounds awfully like the Alexandrian school of allegorical interpretation (e.g. Origen) and lots of contemporary preachers. It also sounds like a lot of postmodernists I'm currently reading who claim there is no content to the meaning of the original text, but only what I, the reader, determine that it means.

Your 'deeper meaning' sounds awfully like allegorical and postmodern interpretations. You say of this 'deeper meaning' view:

logically this must be so, because we are dealing with the Creator of the Universe, Who has made Himself known via His Word, both in the Person of Jesus the Christ, and in written form. He is infinitely deeper than we can fathom.

Logically, there is no need for this to be so because the Creator of the universe has revealed himself in the inscripturated Word and in the person of Jesus. God has provided us with the logical equipment to read his Word and understand Jesus' message through an understanding of language.

Of course, there can be illumination of the Holy Spirit on Scripture. But that doesn't get to a 'deeper meaning' but to a better understanding of God and the actual content of Scripture.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Where are the rules regarding "different grammar" for "different contexts". Grammar rules are for the language, not for context.

If Jesus had NOT used the aorist tense for "believe and be saved" in Luke 8:12, and in the next verse used the present tense for "believe for a while", I might be persuaded of your view. But by His using "believe" in the present tense and adding "for a while" obvious shows that even present tenses aren't always continuous.

There are many texts where "believe" is in the aorist tense. No sense of time.

Also, if salvation was based on continual faith, why in the world are there NO verses that plainly give such a warning: keep on believing if you want to keep on being saved, or something like that?

A person is saved immediately upon faith in Christ. At that same moment, God regenerates, justifies, forgives, and gives the right to be His child.

None of these things are ever described as in jeopardy of being lost in Scripture.

In our interchange we have already demonstrated that there is different grammar for different contexts. You are showing me that the aorist tense was used in Luke 8:12. I have shown you that the present tense for 'believe' was used in John 3:16. These are the facts. Different contexts and different tenses of the verb.

Right now I am writing (present tense) to you. It is not: I wrote (past tense) to you or have been writing (past continuous action) to you. So in English we have different tenses for different contexts.

That's the way it is in any grammar for various languages.

You say:

Also, if salvation was based on continual faith, why in the world are there NO verses that plainly give such a warning: keep on believing if you want to keep on being saved, or something like that?

There are verses, but you won't receive them. These are only a couple of them:

holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:19-20 ESV).

AND

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt (Heb 6:4-6 ESV)

And I've been demonstrating from the present continuing action of the Greek present tense in John 3:16 that continuing to believe is the basis of continuing to have eternal life.

The Bible is clear on this, but this view seems to be shipwrecked by your presuppositions.

Oz

 

[nobdysfool]

Why do you need to mine anything more than what the plain meaning of the exegesis of the text states?

And yet men spend entire lifetimes plumbing and studying God's word, and would readily admit that they have not found an end to the wisdom and truth contained in it....

Mining more sounds awfully like the Alexandrian school of allegorical interpretation (e.g. Origen) and lots of contemporary preachers. It also sounds like a lot of postmodernists I'm currently reading who claim there is no content to the meaning of the original text, but only what I, the reader, determine that it means.

That's a bunch of hooey, and accusing me of such is not an answer to my points, it's an attempt to categorize me, and stuff me into a little box you can kick around and ultimately dismiss.

Your 'deeper meaning' sounds awfully like allegorical and postmodern interpretations.

And you would be wrong about that.

Logically, there is no need for this to be so because the Creator of the universe has revealed himself in the inscripturated Word and in the person of Jesus. God has provided us with the logical equipment to read his Word and understand Jesus' message through an understanding of language.

So in your view, God has revealed Himself so completely through Jesus and Scripture, that there will be nothing new about Him to learn once we are with Him in Eternity? I would hope that's not the case. For one thing, we are ALL going to have our theology corrected once we are there, because not one of us in this life will ever have their theology 100% correct. Unlike what some apparently believe, having 100% correct theology is not a requirement for salvation, or we'd all still be lost.

Of course, there can be illumination of the Holy Spirit on Scripture. But that doesn't get to a 'deeper meaning' but to a better understanding of God and the actual content of Scripture. Oz

A distinction without a difference. It seems to me that you're arguing for a view of Scripture and theology that is a mile wide, but only a half inch deep. Truth isn't limited to one or two verse soundbites. I know it's convenient to express things with one verse, but that's the lazy man's method of interpretation. God didn't express all Truth in one-verse stand-alone snippets.

You apparently want to push aside any notion that there might be depth to God's Word that you haven't even glimpsed. That there might be more there than meets the eye. Until God opens your eyes to it, you won't see it. I know that. But it saddens me that you so quickly dismiss the idea. Hopefully that dismissal has nothing to do with it being a Calvinist who brought it up. That would be truly petty and childish, but sadly I have seen evidence among some posters here of that very attitude. I'm hoping that isn't the case with you.

NBF

 

[sdowney717]

I never suggested that God chooses who will believe based on "their view of election". RT believes that God chooses who will be saved based on no criteria. RT believe in unconditional salvation. If God chose on a preset set of circumstances, it would not be unconditional.

You are suggesting a cause and effect of a specific order in the 1 Cor. scripture, and I don't believe that that is the case.



I never said he did. Nobody believes before they are regenerated. All are degenerate and have no belief. God selects them, gives them to Christ to be saved, turns their hearts to Him and gives them saving faith and justifies them.



John 6:22-the end of the chapter, but specifically verses 37, 39, 44, and 65.

Good verses, and here are more.

More confirmation of our election. The definition of election is to be chosen by God for salvation and not wrath of God.

1 Thess 1

2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.

and
2 Thess 2

Stand Fast

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

 

[sdowney717]

Greek Lexicon :: G1589 (NKJV)

The word 'election' in 1 Thess 1 means

ἐκλογή , Transliteration -- eklogē
Pronunciation
ek-lo-gā' , From ἐκλέγομαι (G1586)
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 4:176,505
Outline of Biblical Usage

the act of picking out, choosing

of the act of God's free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons

the decree made from choice by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ by grace alone

a thing or person chosen

of persons: God's elect

That our election is vehemently denied by persons is of no surprise.
It strikes fear into some, because they may think they are not elect, seeing that they think it capricious or arbitrary of God to do such a thing. And what kind of loving God would do that. They prefer their salvation remain in their hands, not Gods to do with as He wills.