Twelve "In" or "Out"?

[JerryShugart]

An examination of the phrase "in Christ" reveals that the Twelve are members of the Church,which is His Body:

"So we,being many,are one Body in Christ"(Ro.12:5).

Being "in Christ" refers to the "New Ceation",the "New Man",which is the Body of Christ:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a New Creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new"(2Cor.5:17).

The New Creation is the New Man,the Body of Christ,where there is neither Greek nor Jew,circumcision or uncircumcision:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything,nor uncircumcision,but a New Creation"(Gal.6:15).

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all One in Christ Jesus"(Gal.3:27,28).

The same exact thing is said in reference to the "New Man":

"And have put on the New Man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision", Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all"(Col.3:10,11).

And Paul makes it plain that both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers are BOTH included in the Body of Christ:

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of two One New Man, so making peace;And that He might reconcile both unto God in One Body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"(Eph.2:15,16).

So the phrase "in Christ" means being in the Body of Christ.So it is not surprising that we see that Peter includes the Jewish believers in the Body of Christ:

"Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus"(1Pet.5:14).

Remember,Paul says that "if any man be in Christ he is a New Creation"(2Cor.5:17).

And by Peter's words there can be no doubt that those who received his epistles were indeed "in Christ",so therefore there is no doubt that they are members of the New Man,the Body of Christ.

John tells the Jewish believes that their "life" is in the Son:

"And this is the record,that God hath given to us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).

So by understanding the meaning of "in Christ" we can know that the Jewish believers who lived at the time Paul wrote his epistles were indeed members of the Body of Christ.We an also know that Paul was not the first member of the Body of Christ.Paul says:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me"(Ro.16:7).

Paul also speaks of churches that were established before he was saved as being "in Christ":

"And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ"(Gal.1:22).

"For ye,brethen,became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus"(1Thess.2:14).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Markea]

AMEN to that !

 

[eph3Nine]

An examination of the phrase "in Christ" reveals that the Twelve are members of the Church,which is His Body:

"So we,being many,are one Body in Christ"(Ro.12:5).

Being "in Christ" refers to the "New Ceation",the "New Man",which is the Body of Christ:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a New Creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new"(2Cor.5:17).

The New Creation is the New Man,the Body of Christ,where there is neither Greek nor Jew,circumcision or uncircumcision:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything,nor uncircumcision,but a New Creation"(Gal.6:15).

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all One in Christ Jesus"(Gal.3:27,28).

The same exact thing is said in reference to the "New Man":

"And have put on the New Man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision", Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all"(Col.3:10,11).

And Paul makes it plain that both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers are BOTH included in the Body of Christ:

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of two One New Man, so making peace;And that He might reconcile both unto God in One Body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"(Eph.2:15,16).

So the phrase "in Christ" means being in the Body of Christ.So it is not surprising that we see that Peter includes the Jewish believers in the Body of Christ:

"Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus"(1Pet.5:14).

Remember,Paul says that "if any man be in Christ he is a New Creation"(2Cor.5:17).

And by Peter's words there can be no doubt that those who received his epistles were indeed "in Christ",so therefore there is no doubt that they are members of the New Man,the Body of Christ.

John tells the Jewish believes that their "life" is in the Son:

"And this is the record,that God hath given to us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).

So by understanding the meaning of "in Christ" we can know that the Jewish believers who lived at the time Paul wrote his epistles were indeed members of the Body of Christ.We an also know that Paul was not the first member of the Body of Christ.Paul says:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me"(Ro.16:7).

Paul also speaks of churches that were established before he was saved as being "in Christ":

"And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ"(Gal.1:22).

"For ye,brethen,became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus"(1Thess.2:14).

In His grace,--Jerry

Oh boy. Here there are folks in here that dont even yet see right division, and you are throwing THIS into the mix???

I respectfully DISAGREE...the twelve were distinctly part of Israels program and are NOT part of the Body of Christ. They are most certainly IN Christ, but not in the BODY.

Why do you think that you can be saved under one dispensation and mosey over into another at will? DOES NOT COMPUTE.

And I beg to differ....Paul IS the first member. Where are you comin from here? You arent a right divider, thats for sure.

 

[Markea]

..perhaps a good breakpoint should be established to better highlight these things..

WHEN exactly was Israel set aside..? ?

 

[JerryShugart]

Oh boy. Here there are folks in here that dont even yet see right division, and you are throwing THIS into the mix???

If one wants to show right division then we should understand that the beginning of the present dispensation is an entirely different thing that the beginning of the Church,which is His Body.

I respectfully DISAGREE...the twelve were distinctly part of Israels program and are NOT part of the Body of Christ. They are most certainly IN Christ, but not in the BODY.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a New Creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new"(2Cor.5:17).

Why do you think that you can be saved under one dispensation and mosey over into another at will? DOES NOT COMPUTE.

How do explain the fact that those saved under the dispensation of governemt were later placed under the dispensation of promise?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[eph3Nine]

..perhaps a good breakpoint should be established to better highlight these things..

WHEN exactly was Israel set aside..? ?

Perhaps a good break point would be, lets discuss why the Body of Christ couldnt have begun at PENTECOST!!!

Maybe because it was still a totally JEWISH program. Maybe because this is a Jewish Feast day with no mention of gentiles in attendance? Maybe because the Kingdom is still being offered to the nation ISRAEL in Acts 3 and maybe cuz the Body of Christ, a MYSTERY until revealed TO Paul AFTER Acts 9, wasnt even on the MAP as an option yet?

 

[JerryShugart]

..perhaps a good breakpoint should be established to better highlight these things..

WHEN exactly was Israel set aside..? ?

The role of the nation of Israel was "diminished" when Paul was converted and sent to the Gentiles as the Apostle to the Gentiles.We see at Acts 15 that the Twelve Apostles agreed with Paul that they would limit their ministry to the Jews.

Before they were to be the "light of the world".

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Markea]

Perhaps a good break point would be, lets discuss why the Body of Christ couldnt have begun at PENTECOST!!!

Maybe because it was still a totally JEWISH program. Maybe because this is a Jewish Feast day with no mention of gentiles in attendance? Maybe because the Kingdom is still being offered to the nation ISRAEL in Acts 3 and maybe cuz the Body of Christ, a MYSTERY until revealed TO Paul AFTER Acts 9, wasnt even on the MAP as an option yet?

Well, we know that the GOSPEL is TO the JEW FIRST and also to the GENTILE.. and Peter was certainly preaching CHRIST crucified and resurrected at Pentecost.

As for when Israel was set aside.. imho.. it seems pretty clear as spoken of the Lord.. doesn't it.. ?

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Markea]

Then Acts begins... the GOSPEL going to the JEW first.. then to the Gentiles.. and to the uttermost part of the earth...

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt Thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

And He said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power.

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

 

[eph3Nine]

sigh...

 

[JerryShugart]

Well, we know that the GOSPEL is TO the JEW FIRST and also to the GENTILE.. and Peter was certainly preaching CHRIST crucified and resurrected at Pentecost.

The gospel being preached on the day of Pentecost was not the same gospel that Paul later preached to the Gentiles.

For an understanding of this you can go to the following site:

http://gracebeacon.net/studies.html

Scroll down to the section "Dispensationalism" then click on the button "PDF" on the last article in that section,"Two Gospels".

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Markea]

The gospel being preached on the day of Pentecost was not the same gospel that Paul later preached to the Gentiles.

For an understanding of this you can go to the following site:

http://gracebeacon.net/studies.html

Scroll down to the section "Dispensationalism" then click on the button "PDF" on the last article in that section,"Two Gospels".

In His grace,--Jerry

I can agree with a distinction between the gospel of the kingdom and Paul's gospel although I see the church of God as beginning here at Pentecost.. with Israel already placed aside nationally.. ie, the gospel going to the JEW first.. etc..

You do believe that the church begins at Pentecost don't you.. ?

 

[eph3Nine]

The Church, the Body of Christ didnt BEGIN at Pentecost. Pentecost wasnt a beginning of anything but a progressive DECLINE of the program with Israel.

The ONLY church at Pentecost was the Kingdom church comprised of JEWS who believed in the gospel of the Kingdom (Christ the prophesied Messiah and coming King).

Wrong premise...wrong conclusion.

And I HATE to have to repeat myself.

 

[Markea]

The Church, the Body of Christ didnt BEGIN at Pentecost. Pentecost wasnt a beginning of anything but a progressive DECLINE of the program with Israel.

The ONLY church at Pentecost was the Kingdom church comprised of JEWS who believed in the gospel of the Kingdom (Christ the prophesied Messiah and coming King).

Wrong premise...wrong conclusion.

And I HATE to have to repeat myself.

Yes, we're already aware of your opinion.. thanks again though.

 

[JerryShugart]

You do believe that the church begins at Pentecost don't you.. ?

I think that the Church could have had its beginning when the Lord Jesus ascended into heaven.

The Scriptures do not say when the Body of Christ began,but in order to understand its possible beginning we should understand the very "natue" of the Church.Acts 2 dispensationalist Lewis Sperry Chafer (the founder of the Dallas Theological Seminary) points out the following:

"The Church is composed of all nations,including Israelites,and sustains no citizenship here,but instead the believers are strangers and pilgrims…every covenant or promise for the Church is for a heavenly reality,and she continues in heavenly citizenship when the heavens are recreated"(Chafer,"Systematic Theology", IV:47-53).

The Body of Christ is heavenly,and that is why Paul calls Christians "ambassadors for Christ"(2Cor.5:20).An "ambassador" is someone who is representing some one else away from his home.

Sir Robert Anderson writes:

"The only true Church is that which the Lord is building,and it has no corporate existence upon earth..The Body of Christ is not on earth,nor can it have a corporate existence until the Divine purpose respecting it has been fulfilled"(Anderson,"Forgotten Truths",pp.79,99).

I believe that the Lord began building His Church when the Lord Jesus ascended into heaven,and at that time all who believed were "raised up together and made to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"(Eph.2:6).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Markea]

Interesting thoughts... although I'd add that I believe that the scriptures make it clear that it's the spiritual baptism that places us into CHRIST.. which began at Pentecost.. ie..

And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith He, ye have heard of Me.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

This we also see in Acts 11 with Cornelius.. and there being no difference at all between God giving the Spirit to the Jews or the Gentiles.. both by their believing on the Lord Jesus Christ..

Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that He said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as He did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Paul says the same thing...

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Markea]

And I certainly agree that the church of God is a heavenly entity.. amen to that.

 

[eph3Nine]

This is a dispensational forum. Opinions are of no matter. We discuss from a dispensational point of view. If you think the church began at Pentecost then you need to be in the Covenant Theology Section. Why have a whole gang of you decided to come in here and post?

 

[Markea]

This is a dispensational forum. Opinions are of no matter. We discuss from a dispensational point of view. If you think the church began at Pentecost then you need to be in the Covenant Theology Section. Why have a whole gang of you decided to come in here and post?

OK.. thanks again for your opinion eph..

 

[Markea]

Perhaps the LORD was only joking when He said...

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Who knows.. maybe He changed His mind and gave them another chance..? ?

Although I tend to doubt it.. and again.. they ASKED Him of He was going to restore the kingdom to Israel and He told them that it's not for them to know that time.. but that they will receive power and be witnesses of ME.. the LORD JESUS CHRIST.. starting in Jerusalem.. then Judaea, Samaria..and to the uttermost part of the earth...

This is exactly what happened.. the GOSPEL went to the JEW first.. then it spread to entire planet.. JEWS and GENTILES being added to the body by the SPIRIT..