Twelve "In" or "Out"?

[JerryShugart]

Whaaaaaaat??? How do you get the Body being formed prior to Paul? There is absolutely NO evidence , scriptural or otherwise for this.

eph3Nine,

So far no one has provided a credible answer to the verses which demonstrate that Paul was not the first member of the Body of Christ.Here he speaks of those who were "in Christ" before he was:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me"(Ro.16:7).

Paul also speaks of churches that were established before he was saved as being "in Christ":

"And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ"(Gal.1:22).

"For ye,brethen,became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus"(1Thess.2:14).

There WAS no Body before Acts 9...there was a CHURCH, made up of Jews who believed in the kingdom gospel, but NO body of Christ.

You two simply arent making ANY sense.

The Lord told the Apostle Paul that the Gentiles would share the same inheritance as the Jewish believers who were living at that time:

"Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me"(Acts26:17,18).

This is in regard to the "heavenly calling" of the Church,which is His Body.The same "heavenly calling" of which the author of "Hebrews" speaks of to the Hebrew Christians:

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus"(Heb.3:1).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[JerryShugart]

Israel was ALREADY set aside... their house was left DESOLATE.. they didn't get another chance in the book of Acts..

Markea,

If the nation of Israel did not get another chance to accept their promised Messiah then how can you explain the words of Peter addressed to that nation?:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you"(Acts3:19,20).

There Peter is telling the nation that if they will repent and return to the Lord that the Father would send back the Lord Jesus to usher in the "times of refreshing".

That sure sounds like a second chance to me.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[JMWHALEN]

Markea wrote:

"Interesting thoughts... although I'd add that I believe that the scriptures make it clear that it's the spiritual baptism that places us into CHRIST.. which began at Pentecost.. ie..

And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith He, ye have heard of Me.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. "


My comment:: The Lord Jesus Christ is "the baptizer" here. If you carefully study Mark 1:8, we learn that there was a promise given by John the Baptist to the nation of Israel. The promise was "He(Christ) shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost"-the Lord Jesus Christ was the baptizer. What was He going to baptize them with, or identify them with? The answer: the Holy Spirit(and this was the "power from on high").

The Lord Jesus Christ baptizing with the Holy Spirit:: Matt. 3:11, Mark 1:8; Lk 3;16; Jn;33; Acts 1;4,5; Acts 11;15,16.
.

This we also see in Acts 11 with Cornelius.. and there being no difference at all between God giving the Spirit to the Jews or the Gentiles.. both by their believing on the Lord Jesus Christ..

Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that He said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

My comment: : "ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost"-the Lord Jesus Christ is the baptizer.



Paul says the same thing...

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

My comment:

The Holy Spirit is "the Baptizer" here-this is not the same baptism ocurring at Pentecost. The body of Christ was not yet formed at Pentecost-it was strictly Jewish body, and the "middle wall" was still standing.

The Holy Spirit Baptizing into the Body of Christ:: 1Cor12:13;Rom6:3-4; Col.2;11-12;Gal.3:27;Eph.4:5.

Today, the work of the Holy Spirit differs greatly from that of the former dispensation. The baptizer is not the Lord Jesus Christ in this dispensation-today the Holy Spirit is performing a spiritual baptism, the purpose being to identify us with the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, and identifying us into the Body of Christ as a vital member(Romans 6:1-4, 1 Cor. 12:12-14).

The Body of Christ's(which was not in existence in the early Acts period) baptism involves the Holy Spirit as the baptizer, which 1.places/identifies/unites us into one body of Jews and Gentiles who have trusted the Lord Jesus Christ alone as the Saviour, creating a NEW entity("new man") totally distinct in its nature and program from Israel, and 2. places/identifies/unites each believer with Christ("in Christ" and "Christ in me"), who is the "Head of the Body", and thus His death becomes our death, His burial becomes our burial, and His resurrection becomes our resurrection. There is therefore both a vertical and horizontal union simultaneously formed by this "one baptism"(Eph. 4:5-NOT TWO) by the Spirit. Notice that throughout 1 Corinthians Chapter 12 there is a constant reference to the work of the Holy Spirit. Quoting only one here, which illustrates the Holy Spirit's instrumentality: "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking BY(emphasis mine) the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is Lord, But BY(emphasis mine) the Holy Ghost"(1 Cor. 12:3). All through that Chapter 12 it is clear and understood that the Holy Spirit is the One who is the Instrument doing the various actions. So the passage could not be made to say "in/with one Spirit". It has to be BY ONE SPIRIT, and therefore a different Spirit baptism is being spoken of here, which is separate and distintinct from the Spirit baptism in early Acts, where the Lord Jesus Christ is the baptizer.

I will also add, that failure to discern the difference between these 2 baptisms has caused millions of people to be deceived and led astray into a vast number of heresies, including the "Holy Laughter" debacle/side-show, the "pscho-babble" tongues embarrassment, and the unscriptural "slain in the spirit" lunacy.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[Markea]

Markea,

If the nation of Israel did not get another chance to accept their promised Messiah then how can you explain the words of Peter addressed to that nation?:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you"(Acts3:19,20).

There Peter is telling the nation that if they will repent and return to the Lord that the Father would send back the Lord Jesus to usher in the "times of refreshing".

That sure sounds like a second chance to me.

In His grace,--Jerry

The context of my comments pertains to ISRAEL being RESTORED Jerry.. not that they have no chance to do that...but given another chance and then having their house made DESOLATE AGAIN..

The Lord told them that their house was left desolate.. and when His disciples asked Him if He was going to RESTORE the nation of Israel again.. He told them that it is not for them to know that time.. but that they shall be witnesses of CHRIST starting in Jerusalem.. then Judaea, Samaria.. and to the uttermost part of the earth...

All of this you're well aware of I'm sure.. although again, the very critical point in all of this is that ISRAEL was NOT RESTORED and the therefore the GOSPEL went out starting in Jerusalem and then abroad, just as the Bible teaches us.

Have a nice Thanksgiving everyone.. Christians have everything to be thankful for.. because of our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.. the God of the living.. the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[Markea]

I will also add, that failure to discern the difference between these 2 baptisms has caused millions of people to be deceived and led astray into a vast number of heresies, including the "Holy Laughter" debacle/side-show, the "pscho-babble" tongues embarrassment, and the unscriptural "slain in the spirit" lunacy.

The scriptures are clear that there is one Spirit and one baptism which places a believer into Christ.. it's only your doctrine has to come up with two spirits and two baptisms..

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

This can be seen in the gospel as well..

He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

You'll probably come back with something like this was only written to the Jews.. although our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ clearly knew of and foretold of the Gentiles coming in.. and HE spoke to His own Apostles concerning the things which were hidden from the foundation of the world.. and in John's gospel.. He told them ahead of time of the other sheep..

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth Me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[JMWHALEN]

The scriptures are clear that there is one Spirit and one baptism which places a believer into Christ.. it's only your doctrine has to come up with two spirits and two baptisms..

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

This can be seen in the gospel as well..

He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

You'll probably come back with something like this was only written to the Jews.. although our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ clearly knew of and foretold of the Gentiles coming in.. and HE spoke to His own Apostles concerning the things which were hidden from the foundation of the world.. and in John's gospel.. He told them ahead of time of the other sheep..

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth Me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

__________________________________________

My comment-part 1:

You mistake your own poor reading comprehension skills for error on the part of the material you read .

-Show me where I said "two spirits", in the sense of "two Holy Spirits". Show me.

- The scripture testifies that the person of Lord Jesus Christ was the baptizer in Acts, and the person of the Holy Spirit is the baptizer in this dispensation. Your post is "clear"(your words) that you cannot distinguish between the concept of "person" being the instrument, and " one Spirit"(Eph. 4:4). Yes, there is "one Spirit", but there are 3 distinct,separate, and yet equal persons of the Godhead, each having a role in God's purposes/plans, and each person's role changing throughout mankind's history(if the Holy Bible's testimony is to believed). And the role of the Holy Spirit in Acts, the "with/in"' Holy Spirit baptism here, with the Lord Jesus Christ as the baptizer, is different than the role of the Holy Spirit in this dispensation, the "BY one Spirit" baptism, the "one baptism" of Eph. 4:5(and the Holy Spirit's role in the OT was different than HIS role in the NT-another subject) . Perhaps you are a "Oneness Pentecostal", i.e., denying the concept of the Trinity? Please clarify. For I would be spinning my wheels here trying to argue with you, if you deny the persons of the Godhead. That is, if you can not accept scripture/s testimony of the persons performing the baptism, then this discussion will be unprofitable.

Your scriptural reference, which I previously quoted, "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.", adds nothing to your argument about the question of the instrumentality of the baptism in question, nor any relevance to "2 spirits". You are correct in that there is one baptism today, not "2 baptisms", but that does nothing for your argument either, for I agree with you. But the one baptism today was not equivalent to the Acts baptism, where the Lord Jesus Christ is the baptizer, or former baptisms: 1. Paul's insistence that there is only one baptism today in Ephesians 4 would be a non-sensical doctrinal point if there had been no former baptisms, and had there been no dispute regarding the concept of baptisms. And indeed, the Holy Bible testifies to this dispute 2. see my next post for my explanation of discerning between the two spirit baptisms-"with/in" vs. "BY". And notice this is not "2 Holy Spirits", "not "2 spirits", the discernment of the difference pertains to INSTRUMENTALITY-who is doing what action. Do you want me to cite/list all of the different baptisms in the Holy Bible? Of course there is only one baptism today, but your premise on which you base your argument presumes that this has always been the case-wrong premise, wrong conclusion.

Your scriptural reference "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.", which I already referenced, does nothing for your argument, unless you either just ignore "BY one spirit", the key word being BY(words do matter-would you rather be BY the fire or IN the fire?-merely an illustration), or do not understand the difference between BY and in/with. I suspect both.

Words do matter. The Holy Spirit, HE, yes the person, is very careful in HIS choice of words HE uses to convey truth. It is sad that those with a theological "AX" to grind force the 1 Cor. 12:13 reference to "BY one Spirit" to read "in one Spirit. It is sad that those who argue against the revelation of the mystery given to Paul, and with it the doctrine that the body of Christ was not in view in early Acts, do not recognize it. However, it is even "sadder" that the problem is not that people reject the truth-they are not rejecting the truth. No, they are rejecting someone else's truth as presented to them from the biblical charge of "right division", because of "denominational blinders"-"I have never been taught that blah, blah, blah....."

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[JMWHALEN]

My comment to Markea's post-part 2:

"This can be seen in the gospel as well..

He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

My comment: And who is giving the Holy Spirit here? Who is the baptizer?

"You'll probably come back with something like this was only written to the Jews.. although our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ clearly knew of and foretold of the Gentiles coming in.."

My comment: That is the Holy Bible's testimony, not mine. And of course, you, by this statement(and below), come back with the mind set that ALL SCRIPTURE IS WRITTEN TO ME-which indeed you have.

"..although our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ clearly knew of and foretold of the Gentiles coming in.."

My comment: And he foretold of this through prophecy, not the mystery, and this foretelling of the Gentiles coming in was ONLY THROUGH Israel as the instument, before she was gradually set aside in Acts(Early Acts is not a telling of the birth of the body of Christ, of Christianity, but the telling of the stumbling, fall, diminishing, blindness of Israel). Only after Paul was raised up do we now have the Gentiles and Jews on equal ground in the body of Christ-the "middle wall" of partition separating them is down . And you just cannot/don't/won't recognize this change in God's dealing with mankind.

" and HE spoke to His own Apostles concerning the things which were hidden from the foundation of the world.. and in John's gospel.. He told them ahead of time of the other sheep..

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth Me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

My comment: Again, your failure to rightly divide, your failure to recognize the "who" being addressed(as above-you cannot distinguish between the Lord Jesus Christ as the "who" in baptism, and the Holy Spirit as the "who" in baptism).

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." Jn 10:16

This is a reference to Israel, the sheep of the dispersion, and is a reference to the re-uniting of the northern kingdom, Israel(10 tribes), and and the southern kingdoms, Samaria(the tribes of Joseph and Ephraim). The Jews were always referred to as sheep.

"Israel is a scattered sheep..." Jer. 50:17- see also Is. 40:11, 63:11;Luke 12:32(all Jews-no Gentiles); Psalms 44:11, 78:52, 80:1; Ez. 34:11-12 ;Zech. 13:7-9 and on and on and on......

"In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God. They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten. My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers." Jer. 50:4-7


"The Lord GOD, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him." Is. 56:8

"The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions(Benjamin and Levi-my comment): And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all." Ezekiel 37:15-22

"For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." 1 Peter 2:25

And who is the "ye" Peter is writing to? The dispersia-Jews, never Gentiles:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia..." 1 Peter 1:1

"The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine, for ye are strangers and sojourners with me." Lev. 25:23

Prophecy/warning of this dispersia:

"The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth." Deut. 28:25

"Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?" Jn 7:35=Jews dispersed abroad among the Gentile nations.


Acts 1:2 -Jews-no Gentiles

"And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)..." Acts 1:13-15 -Jews, no Gentiles

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place." This is the same "they" of Acts 1:26-Jews-no Gentiles.

Pentecost was a JEWISH Feast. You HAD TO BE JEWISH to participate in this obligation. A Gentile could only be included if he was a proselyte.

"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven...." Acts 2:5 Jews-no Gentiles

"Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." Acts 2:9-11 =the dispersia of Jews scattered abroad. Pentecost was one of the feasts mandated by the Law of Moses(the other being Passover and Tabernacles), where every every male JEW had to attend in Jerusalem. This explains why the big crowd! This was a mandatory JEWISH feast day=NO GENTILES ALLOWED!

Peter, as late as Acts 10:28, would have no company with any Gentile:

"And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean..."

This was part of the Law of Moses-JEWS were to be SEPARATE from the heathen nations=GENTILES. Hence, the meaning of a"holy" nation=separated by the LORD God for service to be the vessel,or channel of God to reveal the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to the heathen nations:

" Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. " Ex. 19:5,6

"And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people. Lev. 20:23-24 =SEPARATION=HOLINESS

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." Deut. 7:6, 14:2, 26:18-19

Acts 2:38 "every one of you" ARE JEWS, if you could read, instead of relying on "the Church".

Peter addressed:

"ye men of Judea" 2:14 JEWS mandated to come to Jerusalem for Pentecost
"ye men of Israel" 2:22 " " "
"men and brethren" 2:29

Peter would not be "caught dead" associating with a Gentile-he is refering to his fellow Jews

"let all the house of Israel" 2:36

Acts 2:39
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call."

This promise is a reference to the COVENANTS promised to the JEWS all throughout the OT. Gentiles had no covenant promises:

"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises..." Romans 9:4

"Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers..." Romans 15:8

The circumcision were Jews. The fathers were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And Romans 15:8 explains :

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Mt. 10:5-6

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Mt. 15:24

"afar off" is a reference to the dispersia scattered abroad: JEWS

"O LORD, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee." Daniel 9:7

The Gentile condition:

"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world..." Eph. 2:12

I will discuss discernment between the 2 Spirit(not 2 Holy Spirits)baptisms in a forthcoming post.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[Markea]

John, your mistake is failing to acknowledge that Israel had already been set aside (their house was left DESOLATE) and that the GOSPEL was going to go out to the Jew first, starting in Jerusalem, then Judaea, then Samaria.. and ultimately to the utter part of the earth.. the gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ.. to the Jew first and also to the Gentile.. for there is no difference.. for all have sinned and are fallen short of the glory of God.. although ALL may be justified freely by the redemption that is IN CHRIST JESUS.. as His grace extends unto ALL and is upon ALL those that believe.

They asked the Lord if He would restore the KINGDOM to Israel.. although it wasn't for them to know the times for that.. but that they shall be WITNESSES of ME (JESUS CHRIST).. beginning in Jerusalem..

This is not difficult..

ALL those that would BELIEVE ON HIM would receive the HOLY SPIRIT and that's how the body of CHRIST is formed.. by being baptized by ONE SPIRIT into ONE BODY.. JEW or GENTILE.. it doesn't matter..

You fail to see this simple truth and therefore must come up with another church.. another body of those IN CHRIST.. etc etc..

Paul was not the first member of the body of Christ as he plainly declares.. Paul persecuted the very church to whom he was latter made a part of.. you folks say otherwise.. because your doctrine falls otherwise..

Etc etc etc..

 

[eph3Nine]

Markea, Markea, You simply aren't listening or reading well here.

You have assumed as true a common misconception...JMWHALEN provided you with the ANSWER to that mistaken notion WITH SCRIPTURE.

Ignoring material pertinent to your misconstrued concept is NOT honest study of the scriptures, which ARE to be our plumb line between truth and truth. This is why the scriptures says rightly Divide the Word of truth, NOT find the difference between truth and error. All the bible is true, but NOT addressed to YOU.

 

[GLJCA]

sigh...

Are you frustrated? If you are going to be credible you must prove your statements and back them up with scripture. As it is you are only making statements that are not provable from scripture. Why should we believe you?

GLJCA

 

[JerryShugart]

All of this you're well aware of I'm sure.. although again, the very critical point in all of this is that ISRAEL was NOT RESTORED and the therefore the GOSPEL went out starting in Jerusalem and then abroad, just as the Bible teaches us.

Yes,the "gospel of the kindom" was preached during the time when Israel was still be given a second chance.That "gospel" was in regard to the dispensation at that time.

Now we are preaching an entirely different gospel.That is what the present dispensation is in regard to.
The Scriptual evidence makes it plain that the "dispensation of grace" is in regard to preaching the "gospel of grace".

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you…"(Eph.3:2).

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).

"…a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me"(1Cor.9:17).

The "dispensation" that was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace",a "ministry" and a "gospel":

"…the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God"(Acts20:24).

That is not the same gospel that was preached on the day of Pentecost.The "dispensation" in regard to the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom" is no longer in force.Now we are living during the time of the "dispensation of grace".

The Day of Pentecost was not the beginning of the present dispensation.It is an error to represent what was being preached that day as Christian doctrine,or as the institution of a new religion.The speakers were Jews,the Apostles of the Lord Jesus Who was Himself "a minister of the circumcision"(Ro.18:8).The Jerusalem church was Jewish and their Bible was the Jewish Scriptures.Their meeting place was the Jewish Temple and it was their house of prayer.The last thing that the Apostles had on their mind was "establishing a new religion".They hailed Jesus as their national Messiah all the while clinging to Judaism,the religion of their fathers.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[eph3Nine]

Markea....Take a look at your bible. THAT gospel got no further than Jerusalem. They never left the city. They didnt carry out that gospel EVER. It stopped. Just like the bible says. When Peter and the boys died, no more kingdom gospel.

That commission was superceded by the commission given to Paul and agreed upon by Peter and the boys. The nations no longer came to God thru the favored nation of Israel, but thru a NEW CREATION set up by God thru Paul.

 

[JerryShugart]

The Holy Spirit Baptizing into the Body of Christ:: 1Cor12:13;Rom6:3-4; Col.2;11-12;Gal.3:27;Eph.4:5.

Today, the work of the Holy Spirit differs greatly from that of the former dispensation. The baptizer is not the Lord Jesus Christ in this dispensation-today the Holy Spirit is performing a spiritual baptism, the purpose being to identify us with the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, and identifying us into the Body of Christ as a vital member(Romans 6:1-4, 1 Cor. 12:12-14).

John,

You make a very good point.I cannot understand why some people just cannot understand the difference between the Lord Jesus being the baptizer and the Holy Spirit being the baptizer.

It is the Holy Spirit Who baptizes the believer into the Body of Christ.

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"(1Cor.12:13,27).

The baptism in regard to what happened on the day of Pentecost demonstrates that it was the Lord Jesus Himself who was the baptizer:

John the Baptist said,"He who cometh after me is mightier than I,whose shoes I am not worthy to bear.He shall baptize you with holy spirit,and with fire"(Mt.311).

The following verse is in regard to the baptism performed by the Lord Jesus:

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of His heart shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for holy spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"(Jn.7:37-39).

First we see that the Lord Jesus said that out of His heart will flow rivers of flowing waters.He is the source of all spiritual blessings.The subject is "the spirit",and not "the Holy Spirit".

This refers to a gift given by the Giver and received by the believer as promised at Acts 1:5 and fulfilled at Acts 2:4.

At John 7:39 the Greek words "pneuma hagion",which are translated "holy spirit",are not preceded by the definite article (the).With the article the reference is to the third Person of the Godhead,the Holy Spirit.But without the definite article it "is never used of the Giver (the Holy Spirit),but only and always of His gift"("The Companion Bible",Appendix 101,Section 14).

But the one baptism today was not equivalent to the Acts baptism, where the Lord Jesus Christ is the baptizer, or former baptisms: 1. Paul's insistence that there is only one baptism today in Ephesians 4 would be a non-sensical doctrinal point if there had been no former baptisms, and had there been no dispute regarding the concept of baptisms.

Another good point.The one baptism for the present dispensation is the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit where the believer is baptized into the Body of Christ.

The baptism performed by the Lord Jesus whereby believers received the power to perform sign gifts is no longer in operation.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Markea]

The only distinction that I would care to make is that there is ONE BODY, and that we're baptized INTO that body by ONE SPIRIT.. whether Jews or Gentiles, it doesn't matter.

There isn't ANOTHER church in Acts.. it's the Lord's church which He is building and adding to when a person (Jew or Gentile) believes on the Lord Jesus Christ..

Peter preached Christ crucified.. and many believed..the received the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.. we're taught that this started in Jerusalem and went to Judaea, then Samaria, and to the utter most part of the earth..

ISRAEL was placed aside.. and the LORD told them that their house was left DESOLATE.. if you believe that Israel was RESTORED after Jesus declared their house desolate then go right ahead.. although AGAIN.. the LORD told them plainly that it wasn't for them to KNOW the times for THAT... but that they WOULD BE WITNESSES OF CHRIST... not of Israel.. but of CHRIST... and that they should go to ALL nations preaching the GOSPEL to every creature..

The SPIRIT was given after Christ was glorified and His grace now extends UNTO ALL and is UPON ALL them that believe.. the LAW was given by Moses but GRACE and truth came by Jesus Christ..

Israel will be restored in the future.. there's no doubt in my mind because the scriptures tell us that ISRAEL is blinded in part UNTIL the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

ALTHOUGH these ultra-dispies have to create ANOTHER church and separate it from the body of Christ.. that's fine with me if you want to believe that but don't expect others to fall for that and then tell us that we do not rightly divide the truth, as if you're the standard for rightly dividing.. because that's simply another example of the staggering spiritual pride which elevates itself to the absolute perfect and pure truth of our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ... as if everything you say is perfect, always.. without error..

I find it absolutely amazing that people place themselves on this level..

BUT.. it's dinner time.. have a nice day folks..

 

[eph3Nine]

God is the one being argued with here.

We have never argued that the ONE true church today IS the Body of Christ...what is being said is that its not always been that way.

YOU, my friend, are mixing instructions given to the OLD program with ours today. That is the subject for debate.

But NOT today.

 

[JMWHALEN]

John, your mistake is failing to acknowledge that Israel had already been set aside (their house was left DESOLATE) and that the GOSPEL was going to go out to the Jew first, starting in Jerusalem, then Judaea, then Samaria.. and ultimately to the utter part of the earth.. the gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ.. to the Jew first and also to the Gentile.. for there is no difference.. for all have sinned and are fallen short of the glory of God.. although ALL may be justified freely by the redemption that is IN CHRIST JESUS.. as His grace extends unto ALL and is upon ALL those that believe.

They asked the Lord if He would restore the KINGDOM to Israel.. although it wasn't for them to know the times for that.. but that they shall be WITNESSES of ME (JESUS CHRIST).. beginning in Jerusalem..

This is not difficult..
_____
My comment:You provide an opinion, as assertion, and not an argument(reasons for a coclusion). And you once again have a faulty "premise"(supporting "walls")i.e., the the gospel of the kingdom is equivalent to the gospel of Christ-it is not. Again, you fail to rightly divide, to disntinguish between those things that are different.

As I suspected, "spinning our wheels" here with you. You have been shown, and your derogitory comments re. dispensationalism, a biblical word, is on record. You have been offered an explanation, so you would "see" the revelation of the mystery(Eph. 3:9). We have been faithful to show it to you.



"ALL those that would BELIEVE ON HIM would receive the HOLY SPIRIT and that's how the body of CHRIST is formed.. by being baptized by ONE SPIRIT into ONE BODY.. JEW or GENTILE.. it doesn't matter..

You fail to see this simple truth and therefore must come up with another church.. another body of those IN CHRIST.. etc etc..

Paul was not the first member of the body of Christ as he plainly declares.. Paul persecuted the very church to whom he was latter made a part of.. you folks say otherwise.. because your doctrine falls otherwise.. "

My comment:You deny the Holy Bible's testimony that there is more than one "the church." Again, do not confuse your lack of understanding with error on the part of what I wrote.


Again, you have an incorrect premise-the church, the body of Christ, was a mystery, unrevealeded until Paul. Pretty simple, despite your assertion to the contrary. Again, wrong premise(only one "the church"), wrong conclusion. "When you are in a hole, stop digging".

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[JerryShugart]

Peter preached Christ crucified.. and many believed..the received the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.. we're taught that this started in Jerusalem and went to Judaea, then Samaria, and to the utter most part of the earth..

Markea,

Where is your evidence that the "gospel of the kingdom" went to the utter most part of the earth?

If this commission continued then why did the Twelve agree to limit their ministry to the Jews (Gal.2:9)?

They were told to preach the "gospel of the kingdom" to every creature in the utter most part of the earth but can you not see that something changed when Paul was converted and made the Apostle to the Gentiles?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Markea]

You provide an opinion, as assertion, and not an argument(reasons for a coclusion). And you once again have a faulty "premise"(supporting "walls")i.e., the the gospel of the kingdom is equivalent to the gospel of Christ-it is not. Again, you fail to rightly divide, to disntinguish between those things that are different.

And what do you provide John..? ? Are your comments above an opinion..? Are they ABSOLUTE PERFECT TRUTH..?

And in case you're not aware.. I do agree that there is a distinction concerning the gospel of the kingdom.. and they're both concerning CHRIST..

AND of course I can just as easily claim that YOU'RE the one who fails to rightly divide John.. although I recognize that this is my opinion on the matter.

As I suspected, "spinning our wheels" here with you.

So according to YOU John, if anyone disagrees with your opinion, then it's just spinning wheels.. that's fine..

You have been shown, and your derogitory comments re. dispensationalism, a biblical word, is on record. You have been offered an explanation, so you would "see" the revelation of the mystery(Eph. 3:9). We have been faithful to show it to you.

Yes, you have shared your opinion on matters and there are a few things that I simply disagree with.. AND, I happen to embrace dispensational thinking, I'm simply not an ultra-dispensational Paul fantatic as you folks are..

You deny the Holy Bible's testimony that there is more than one "the church." Again, do not confuse your lack of understanding with error on the part of what I wrote.

No John, I deny YOUR CLAIM that there is another church.. it's YOUR lack of understanding concerning the body of Christ which I disagree with.. it's that simple.

Again, you have an incorrect premise-the church, the body of Christ, was a mystery, unrevealeded until Paul. Pretty simple, despite your assertion to the contrary. Again, wrong premise(only one "the church"), wrong conclusion. "When you are in a hole, stop digging".

The LORD JESUS CHRIST speaks of His church and upon what basis HE will build it John.. AND we're told that Jesus Christ revealed things which were kept secret from the foundation of the world.. YOU simply need to CREATE ANOTHER church of God John.. because you're an ultra-dispensational PAUL FANATIC..

But I know John.. this is just spinning wheels with respect to your intellectually superior opinion.. and that's fine with me..

 

[Markea]

Markea,

Where is your evidence that the "gospel of the kingdom" went to the utter most part of the earth?

What's your evidence that it IS not, and will not continue to go out as proclaimed in the scriptures..

If this commission continued then why did the Twelve agree to limit their ministry to the Jews (Gal.2:9)?

They were told to preach the "gospel of the kingdom" to every creature in the utter most part of the earth but can you not see that something changed when Paul was converted and made the Apostle to the Gentiles?

In His grace,--Jerry

I've told you before that I can see a distinction in the gospel of the kingdom.. although there's a fine line there as far as I'm concerned... because the church of God is being built by our Lord Jesus Christ.. starting in Jerusalem.. as HE has been adding members to IT as it pleases Him.. JEW or GENTILE.. bond or free.. doesn't matter.. His grace (because GRACE and TRUTH comes by JESUS CHRIST) extends UNTO ALL and it's UPON ALL them that believe..

Again.. I can agree with a distinction.. I simply reject the ultr-dispy claim that there is one Jewish church and then another church called the body of Christ.. for we are ALL baptized into that ONE BODY by ONE SPIRIT.. Jew or Gentile etc etc..

 

[Markea]

I believe that the correct biblical distinction is the ISRAEL OF GOD, an earthly entity.. and the CHURCH OF GOD, the heavenly one.. just as the LAW was given by Moses, but GRACE and truth came by Jesus Christ..

He is coming as the Bright and morning star for the church of God before that great DAY..and He is coming with His saints as the Sun of righteousness, who will arise with healing in His wings.. to the Israel of God...

...and He shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth. (Hosea 6)

NOW, this is simply my opinion.. as I've discovered in the scriptures.. your opinions may vary..