Twelve "In" or "Out"?

[eph3Nine]

Well said by biblebeliever123

It isn't until we get to Paul's epistles that we see that it is faith apart from any works of righteousness.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(God was looking at the crosswork when those in time past were demonstrating their faith with works...He could forgive them based on the crosswork...to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past..that's just not about our past sins, but the sins of those living before the cross.)

But now....God wants NO WORKS...it's faith alone in what He accomplished already for us.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
To him that WORKETH NOT, BUT BELIEVETH....

Obviously the works of the law WERE in effect in times PAST!

 

[JerryShugart]

Contrast Romans 4:5 and Titus 3:5 (above) with

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

This is not saying that it was the "works" themselves which made them acceptable to God.Those who "fear him" obey their conscience and by doing so they can be described as "working righteousness".

The words at Acts 10:35 are merely desribing those who are accepted by Him,just as is the following verse:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life"(Mt.19:29).

It is not a requirement for salvation that one must forsake their family.Instead the Lord is describing those who will inherit everlasting life.And the words at Acts 10:35 are also describing those who are acceptable to God.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[eph3Nine]

"he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness is accepted with Him"...two fold obedience...faith plus works.

The verse you used says that those who forsook ALL those things would inherit eternal life.

So you arent honestly dealing with what these verses say. It means exactly what it says.

James 2:24 and James 2:14 tell us that faith was always accompanied by works
for them in Israels program...James 2:17 says the same thing.

 

[JerryShugart]

"he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness is accepted with Him"...two fold obedience...faith plus works.

It doesn't say that working righteousness is what makes one acceptable.Instead it describes those who are acceptable.

The verse you used says that those who forsook ALL those things would inherit eternal life.

Yes,but the Lord did not say that that was a requirement to inherit eternal life.Or are we supposed to teach that one of the requirements for inheriting eternal life is that we must forsake our families?

So you arent honestly dealing with what these verses say. It means exactly what it says.

As I said,the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will receive eternal life.There is nothing dishonest about this interpretation.The only alternative would be that in order to inherit eternal life it is necessary to forsake one's family,and that is ridiculous.

James 2:24 and James 2:14 tell us that faith was always accompanied by works
for them in Israels program...James 2:17 says the same thing.

How do we reconcile Paul's words that Abriham was justified by faith apart from works with James statement "that by works a man is justified,and not by faith only"?

The words of Paul in the epistle to the Romans are essentially "doctrinal",while the words of James are essentially "practical".Paul's epistle unfolds the mind and purposes of the Lord while the epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground.The argument concerning "faith" in the epistle of James is about what a man may know about another man's "faith":

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works"(Jms.2:18).

If James was making "doctrine" then we would expect to read:

"If a man have faith…",but instead we read,"If a man say he hath faith…"(Jas.2:14).In this case the argument is not about man's "faith" in regard to God,but instead the argument is how a man can know whether or not another man has a true "faith".

The Lord does not need outward demonstrations to know whether or not anyone has a true "faith":

"…the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"(1Sam.16:7).

The Lord knows the "heart" of man,but men can judge only by appearances.A man cannot show another his "faith" except by works.

So the argument of James is not that some men must provide "faith" plus "works" in order to be saved is not supported by Scripture.

Abraham believed,and the Lord declared that he was righteous.He acted,and man acknowledged he was righteous.So then in one sense a man is justified by faith without works and in another sense we see "how by works a man is justified,and not by faith only".Justified by faith before God;justified by works before men.

If Abraham was justified by "works" then he would have something of which to "boast" or "glory" before God.But this is what Paul says about the "work" of Abraham:

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness"(Ro.4:2,3).

James' own words in the first chapter explains how the Jews were saved:

"Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures"(Jas.1:18).

The Apostle Peter says the same thing:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God... And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"(1Pet.1:3,25).

The words of the Lord Jesus should put to rest all the talk that the Jews were justified by faith plus works.This is what He told the Jews:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[eph3Nine]

I dont understand how you can call yourself a dispensationalist when you mix the programs as you do...just wondering aloud here, not making any crazy accusations or anything.

The program was clearly faith PLUS works for the Jew. To say anything different ISNT being honest with the scriptures.

We must keep distinct the two programs...not allow for the fuzzy lines I see here.

 

[JerryShugart]

The program was clearly faith PLUS works for the Jew. To say anything different ISNT being honest with the scriptures.

eph3Nine,

Please cease from accusing me of being dishonest with the Scriptures.

You fail to address the verses which I quoted to demonstrate that the Jews were saved by grace through faith just as we are.

If salvation was by faith plus works then why did Peter say the following?:

""But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are"(Acts15:11).

Paul makes it plain that the believing "remnant" out of the nation of Israel were saved by grace apart from works:

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace"(Ro.11:5,6).

You fail to address these verses and then accuse me of being dishonest with the Scriptures.And you also ignore the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[eph3Nine]

eph3Nine,

Please cease from accusing me of being dishonest with the Scriptures.

You fail to address the verses which I quoted to demonstrate that the Jews were saved by grace through faith just as we are.

If salvation was by faith plus works then why did Peter say the following?:

""But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are"(Acts15:11).

Paul makes it plain that the believing "remnant" out of the nation of Israel were saved by grace apart from works:

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace"(Ro.11:5,6).

You fail to address these verses and then accuse me of being dishonest with the Scriptures.And you also ignore the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

In His grace,--Jerry

Come on now , Jerry. I said that anyone who says that the Jews program wasnt faith plus works is being dishonest with the scriptures. I didnt accuse YOU...I merely made a statement. If you believe and say such a thing, then that identifies you as such. YOU made the distinction, NOT I.

You are still mixing programs here and making fuzzy the clear lines of distinction that God makes between the programs. A few scriptures OUT of context and from both programs does NOT a point make!

Please try to be more clear in your presentation...cuz Im havin more and more trouble aligning myself with you as a right divider.

 

[JerryShugart]

You are still mixing programs here and making fuzzy the clear lines of distinction that God makes between the programs. A few scriptures OUT of context and from both programs does NOT a point make!

Please try to be more clear in your presentation...cuz Im havin more and more trouble aligning myself with you as a right divider.

Why do you not address the verses which I provided that proves that your ideas in regard to how the Jews were saved are in error?

If salvation was by faith plus works then why did Peter say the following?:

""But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are"(Acts15:11).

Paul makes it plain that the believing "remnant" out of the nation of Israel were saved by grace apart from works:

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace"(Ro.11:5,6).

And you also ignore the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

If you are correct in your ideas then you must have an answer to these verses,but so far you ave not even attempted to answer them.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[biblebeliever123]

What was the gospel of salvation for the nation Israel before they were set aside in unbelief (temporarily)? Was it Christ died for their sins, was buried, and rose again for their justification...and thru simple faith in that and that alone they were saved by grace through faith apart from works? That is clearly the message of the gospel of the grace of God for salvation in THIS dispensation....the gospel of salvation message preached by the apostle Paul but it is not the gospel message preached before Paul.

If you take Jn.5:24 as applicable to the salvation of a person in the body of Christ, then what do you do with John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: FOR SALVTION IS OF THE JEWS.

If you go to James for doctrine for the church the body of Christ than what do you do with James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the TWELVE TRIBES which are scattered abroad, greeting.

In THIS dispensation a person is saved by grace through faith APART from any works. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

It's clear that in time past they had to show the expression of faith as required. Again the example of Cain and Abel....both brought the 'sacrifice', but it's apparent that Cain did NOT have faith, since he did not show the correct expression/response. He brought what he considered to be right. Abel obviously believed God and it was shown forth because he brought the sacrifice required to express that faith.

Take note of the words that indicate 'change' from something in 'time past'...words like "BUT NOW"; "AT THIS TIME".

THerefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith, WITHOUT the deeds of the Law.

Had Peter, James, and John stood up and said that on the day of Pentecost they would have been in direct opposition to the kingdom message they stood for. It is not until we see the gospel of grace given to and through Paul for usward ( the church which is his body...which did NOT start on the jewish feast day of pentecost!) that we can see by grace through faith alone apart from any and all works.

Time past, BUT NOW, Ages to come....rightly divide the word of truth.

 

[JerryShugart]

What was the gospel of salvation for the nation Israel before they were set aside in unbelief (temporarily)? Was it Christ died for their sins, was buried, and rose again for their justification...and thru simple faith in that and that alone they were saved by grace through faith apart from works?

While the Lord Jesus Christ walked the earth the Jews were saved when they were "born of God" by believing in His Name,the Name of Jesus Christ,the Son of God.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his Name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"(Jn.1:12,13).

They were born of God when they believed that Jesus is the Christ,the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him....Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"(1Jn.5:1,5).

That is clearly the message of the gospel of the grace of God for salvation in THIS dispensation....the gospel of salvation message preached by the apostle Paul but it is not the gospel message preached before Paul.

Yes,it was not until Paul was it "revealed" that believers in all dispensation are saved by "grace".But just because it was not revealed until Paul does not mean that men before Paul were saved by faith plus works.

If you take Jn.5:24 as applicable to the salvation of a person in the body of Christ, then what do you do with John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: FOR SALVTION IS OF THE JEWS.

The words of the Lord Jesus there were addressed to Jews and were in effect before the Body of Christ was even in existence.And His words cannot be misunderstood--those who believed what He was saying received eternal life at the time they believed Him:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

If you go to James for doctrine for the church the body of Christ than what do you do with James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the TWELVE TRIBES which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The same thing you do with the epistles of Paul that were addressed to Timothy.Those words are not addressed to the Body of Christ but nonetheless the doctrine contained in those epistles are applicable to the Body of Christ.

In THIS dispensation a person is saved by grace through faith APART from any works. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The words there are in regard to those who lived before the law (Abraham) and those who lived under the law (David) as well as those who have not the law (the uncircumcised).The blessing of being justified before the Lord "apart from works" comes to all who believe,no matter when they lived:

"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness apart from works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?"(Ro.4:3-9).

It's clear that in time past they had to show the expression of faith as required.

But not for salvation.David lived under the law but Paul states that he was justified before the Lord "apart from works".

Take note of the words that indicate 'change' from something in 'time past'...words like "BUT NOW"; "AT THIS TIME".

Yes,Paul says "but now" it is revealed.It was not revealed until Paul was converted that the believer is saved apart from works.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[eph3Nine]

Yes,Paul says "but now" it is revealed.It was not revealed until Paul was converted that the believer is saved apart from works.

Now theres a clever twisting of what scripture really teaches. Shame shame shame.

When Paul says BUT NOW, he isnt talking about it being the same all along and NOW they SEE it! NO no no no!!!!! Hes talkin about BEFORE a believer wasnt saved without a demonstration of faith that God REQUIRED, and NOW that has CHANGED!

TSK< TSK, TSK....shakes head and looks in dismay at Jerry.

 

[JerryShugart]

Now theres a clever twisting of what scripture really teaches. Shame shame shame.

You say that I am twisting what Paul says but evidently you did not even bother to see what he actually said:

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets"(Ro.3:21).

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets"(Ro.3:21).

The Greek word translated "manifested" means "to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden ot unknown"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

When Paul says BUT NOW, he isnt talking about it being the same all along and NOW they SEE it! NO no no no!!!!! Hes talkin about BEFORE a believer wasnt saved without a demonstration of faith that God REQUIRED, and NOW that has CHANGED!

But eph3Nine I have given you verses where it is plain that Peter and the rest of the Jewish believers were saved by "grace" but you have not addressed those verses.

TSK< TSK, TSK....shakes head and looks in dismay at Jerry.

I address all of the verses which have been presented in an attempt to prove that the Jews were saved by faith plus works.

You,on the other hand,remain silent about the verses which I provided that demonstrate that they were saved by grace just as were the Gentiles.

If salvation was by faith plus works then why did Peter say the following?:

""But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are"(Acts15:11).

Paul makes it plain that the believing "remnant" out of the nation of Israel were saved by grace apart from works:

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace"(Ro.11:5,6).

And you also ignore the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

If you are correct in your ideas then you must have an answer to these verses,but so far you ave not even attempted to answer them.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[eph3Nine]

The operative phrase is BUT NOW....this is obvious in its meaning.

In times PAST, righteousness was WITH THE LAW; it was their program. BUT NOW, the righteousness without the law is manifested....what does this mean? It means that before (before what? before the change in program took place) the only righteousness you could have was to try to obey the law, which was the program Israel signed UP for. Have you not READ this program? Take a look at Leviticus 26...if they obeyed the LAW they were blessed , if they didn't they were cursed. ALL but ONE Of the five courses of Curses earned by Israel have come to pass. ONE yet remains to fall on them. And its a result of NOT obeying the LAW they signed UP FOR.

I dont need to address your other scriptures or comments as they have already been dealt with quite nicely by others and found wanting.

You are making statements that simply do not coincide with what rightly dividing the Word is all about. I dont mean to be unkind, but this is really the truth of the matter.

 

[biblebeliever123]

The book of James is clearly written to the 12 tribes (scattered) and it is written by a minister of the circumcision. (Gal. 2:9)
When Paul writes Timothy we know that it is intended for the body of Christ because Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and he is a minister of the uncircumcision.

But now... is not only a phrase that shows that it was revealed at that specific point in time, but also indicates a dispensational change. The saints before Paul was saved were NOT members of the church the body of Christ and they were saved by grace through faith with works to show that faith (expressions of their faith). We in this dispensation are told TO NOT WORK (works for salvation...or to prove our salvation... or to keep our salvation) Works in this dispensation are 'service'... not proof. THe proof of our salvation is in the inner man; the seal of the Holy Spirit of promise.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Abel had faith and he offered a more excellent sacrifice....he obtained witness that he was righteous. If Abel had not brought the sacrifice, his faith would have been dead.... faith without works is dead would have applied to his situation.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Noah built the ark... faith built the ark!! If Noah had not built the ark in evidence of his faith, it would have been faith without works is dead.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Abraham ... when called... he went. There was a definite obedience in response to his faith.

Abraham believed God and it was counted for righteousness... there is most definitely a faith principle and this shows most definitely imputation of righteousness.... but nonetheless repeatedly in TIME PAST (not BUT NOW) we see that faith was evidenced with their works.

I will not continue to belabor this point with you. We are obviously not agreeing on this and I won't be discussing it with you any further.

There are principles of right division that I am not seeing in action in your posts and it's apparent that neither of us is going to change the other person's mind on this. Grace and peace.

 

[JerryShugart]

The operative phrase is BUT NOW....this is obvious in its meaning.

In times PAST, righteousness was WITH THE LAW; it was their program. BUT NOW, the righteousness without the law is manifested....what does this mean?

I told you exactly what it means.But you ignore that just as you continue to ignore the verses that prove that your ideas are in error.

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets"(Ro.3:21:NKJV).

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets"(Ro.3:21).

The Greek word translated "manifested" means "to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden ot unknown"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

I dont need to address your other scriptures or comments as they have already been dealt with quite nicely by others and found wanting.

I never saw anyone addess them.Can you tell me where I can find where they were dealt with "quite nicely"?

You are making statements that simply do not coincide with what rightly dividing the Word is all about. I dont mean to be unkind, but this is really the truth of the matter.

To you it is true,but I would suggest that you study "dispensationalism" a little more before you go about lecturing others about what they know or do not know about the subject.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[JerryShugart]

I will not continue to belabor this point with you. We are obviously not agreeing on this and I won't be discussing it with you any further.

You did not "discuss" this with me at all.I answered the points that you raised but you just ignored the verses that demonstrate that your ideas are in error.

In His grace,--Jerry