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Turkey is part of Europe. Fear keeps it out of the EU

Yusuf Evans

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TheNewWorldMan

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Sorry, but predominately Muslim countries don't belong in a European organization. Islam holds disdain for Western/European principles like democracy, women's rights and scientific progress.

Lest someone brand me an imperialist, let me make clear I believe Muslim countries have the right to live as they see fit. But leave the West out of Islam, and Islam out of the West. The two are not compatible.
 
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peadar1987

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Sorry, but predominately Muslim countries don't belong in a European organization. Islam holds disdain for Western/European principles like democracy, women's rights and scientific progress.

Lest someone brand me an imperialist, let me make clear I believe Muslim countries have the right to live as they see fit. But leave the West out of Islam, and Islam out of the West. The two are not compatible.

Turkey is a secular country though.

It shouldn't matter what the major religion of a country is, I know many Muslims who are very supportive of democracy, women's rights and scientific progress.

Turkey's human rights record should be what keeps it out of Europe, not any sense that Muslims don't belong in the EU
 
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Axioma

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I figure that the best way to demonstrate that being an open, secular country is preferable to being a theocracy would be to let Turkey into the EU and thereby demonstrate to the rest of the Muslim world the benefits of playing nice. In other words, defusing hostility by making people WANT to be on our side.
 
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Douger

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Turkey has a secular democratic government. Saying Muslims can't be good Europeans is ridiculous. Read your history books. Muslim Europeans have no worse a history than Christian Europeans. What percentage of Muslim Europeans fought for the Axis in the second world war? And how many Christians?

Besides, Turkey's club and national teams play in UEFA. Enough said.
 
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exotic walrus

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Sorry, but predominately Muslim countries don't belong in a European organization. Islam holds disdain for Western/European principles like democracy, women's rights and scientific progress.

The US holds disdain for principles like democracy and minority rights, so what? Is it the only judge of character.

Lest someone brand me an imperialist, let me make clear I believe Muslim countries have the right to live as they see fit. But leave the West out of Islam, and Islam out of the West. The two are not compatible.
Arab secular nationalism.

Turkey's human rights record should be what keeps it out of Europe, not any sense that Muslims don't belong in the EU

Agree.
 
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Yusuf Evans

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Sorry, but predominately Muslim countries don't belong in a European organization. Islam holds disdain for Western/European principles like democracy, women's rights and scientific progress.

You are seriously mistaken about Islam. The Holy Qu'ran teaches us that we should seek knowledge concerning everything that Allah has created. As well, Islam fully believes in womens' rights and does not believe in persecuting others for their beliefs either. Islam means submission to the will of God; it does not mean persecute those who believe differently than you.
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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You are seriously mistaken about Islam. The Holy Qu'ran teaches us that we should seek knowledge concerning everything that Allah has created. As well, Islam fully believes in womens' rights and does not believe in persecuting others for their beliefs either. Islam means submission to the will of God; it does not mean persecute those who believe differently than you.

Sorry, tell that to her:

lapidazione.jpg


There was a 13 year-old rape victim stoned to death in Somalia under Islamic law.

Again, leave Islam out of the West, and the West out of Islam.
 
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Yusuf Evans

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Sorry, tell that to her:

lapidazione.jpg


There was a 13 year-old rape victim stoned to death in Somalia under Islamic law.

Again, leave Islam out of the West, and the West out of Islam.

This is a perversion of Islam, a way to impose one's political will in a society and base it in our religion. Keep Islam out of the West? Too late for that, as something like 20K Americans convert to Islam every year.
 
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A

Ardeshir

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Turkey should not join the EU.
Turkey is a secular country, that is true, but it is a nationalist, almost facist and militaristic country.

In Iran live hundredthousands of Armenians, who escaped the armenian genocide in turkey. Turkey never accpted that crime. Minorities are treated terrible in turkey.

Turkey is not a stable countrey. It is in civil war because the bad treatment of the kurdish people.
 
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Lokke

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An interesting article, and I have to agree with allot of it. People can say Turkey is part of Asia, but Istanbul is a city divided between Europe and Asia, thereby making Turkey are part of Europe as well.

Turkey is part of Europe. Fear keeps it out of the EU | Comment is free | The Guardian

it is big mistake to join EU. Norway is smart to stay out of EU. nobody use SEK anymore becuase it is not worth much to the EUR. the big country like Russia want to join EU to take it. i dont trust Putin.
 
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dana b

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Sorry, but predominately Muslim countries don't belong in a European organization. Islam holds disdain for Western/European principles like democracy, women's rights and scientific progress.

Lest someone brand me an imperialist, let me make clear I believe Muslim countries have the right to live as they see fit. But leave the West out of Islam, and Islam out of the West. The two are not compatible.

You are right about this one. But it's a two way street. Let the western Christian nations leave the Islamic world alone and I'm sure they will quickly abandon Al Queda. Soon they'll come knocking and begging us to buy there oil in exchange for our modern Christian inventions. We won"t have to keep stealing it anymore.
 
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Kalevalatar

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Turkey abolished death penalty to meet EU membership standards, which is a positive thing and definitely a step forward. However, Turkey still refuses to recognize Cyprus. A member state that does not recognize another fellow EU member state is an impossible situation. The ball is in Turkey's court.
 
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Ellinas

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Turkey cannot join the EU unless she implements certain criteria. She refuses to recognise Cyprus (which is a member state of the EU) She has a long way to go on the human rights issue. Also Turkey lays claim and authority to all Turkish descent European citizens and puts forth issues of minority rights yet she denies the Kurds their rights. Turkey may be secular but this is not the issue here. The Army has more power than the government in Turkey!

My country is in favour of Turkey joining so long as she has fulfilled all her obligations. Even so Turkey continuously violates our airspace with fighter aircraft and also has laid claims to many of our Islands. She meddles in the internal affairs of any country that has Turks living there!

Personally I do not see her joining any time soon. Just promising to be a good boy is not enough. One has to prove it!
 
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Mystman

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I had some troubling following the argument in the article (possible because I'm tired), but one thing that it seemed to say was:

"The EU currently isn't cooperating as well as it could due to differences between the member nations; let's solve it by adding another completely different nation"

This doesn't make any sense to me.

The concept of the EU only works as long as the citizens actually feel connected to the rest of the EU citizens. If they're glad to pay taxes for some infrastructure project on the other side of the union. If they accept that some laws may be enacted that are opposed by their nation but that is favored by the union as a whole.

Back in the day, the lives of the Dutch might have been influenced by EU rules voted on by the French and the Germans. Annoying, but acceptable. These days, the lives of the Dutch are going to be influenced by rules voted on by Bulgarians and Romanians, a situation that many people find less acceptable. Adding the Turkish to that list is not going to help.
 
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interpreter

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Sorry, but predominately Muslim countries don't belong in a European organization. Islam holds disdain for Western/European principles like democracy, women's rights and scientific progress.

Lest someone brand me an imperialist, let me make clear I believe Muslim countries have the right to live as they see fit. But leave the West out of Islam, and Islam out of the West. The two are not compatible.

I agree. Turkey is part of the 7th head of the beast.
 
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mindlight

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An interesting article, and I have to agree with allot of it. People can say Turkey is part of Asia, but Istanbul is a city divided between Europe and Asia, thereby making Turkey are part of Europe as well.

Turkey is part of Europe. Fear keeps it out of the EU | Comment is free | The Guardian

It is an interesting article. Having recently been in Istanbul on business I was also thinking about this very issue. Istanbul is an awesome city. A bridge between Asia and Europe, Christians and Muslims, an ancient city with one of the youngest populations in Europe. Turks are hungry and motivated and their recent economic success is testimony to the passion of an old nation that is young at heart. At the same I was shocked at the level of censorship in the country, the restrictions in the bureaucracy and that most Turkish people were not free in the most meaningful sense.

There are a number of different dimensions in my view here to the question about Turkey joining the EU. But broadly I am in favour.

1) What would be the effect on the rest of us in the EU?

2) What about all those Muslims - wouldn't Christian Europe simply be swamped?

3) What would it do to Turkey?

1) My understanding of what Europe was always meant to be was a loose economic alliance which by building links between peoples would stop them killing each other instead. It was formed against the background of the horrible bloodshed of two European civil wars and the years of rubble and want that followed them. But some people e.g. the French, have a vision of Europe as a tight rich mans club with an exclusive membership. I have always prefered a broader, looser more flexible alliance of strong but peaceful nation states that was more global in its orientation. I think the accession of a nationalistic and patriotic Turkey to the EU would help to frustrate attempts to form that tighter union, would turn Europe outwards in its orientation and open up new young and vigourous markets. My worry is that because the Turks are in practice quite far behind us it might drag standards down. But I think the Turks I have met in Turkey have a passion to grow which will translate into quality soon enough and may invigorate more developed economies.. Also with Turkey in, the walls can also come down in Cyprus.

2) Christianity in Europe is to be honest way too comfortable and has grown unreal because of that. It is also incredibly secularised in the way it talks and relates to people. Muslims find it easier to talk about God and are interested in discussing him. Having 70 million Muslims come to Europe suddenly would definitely put God back into the conversation and Turksih Muslims are more moderate than most. My hope is that the church would benefit from this as people were pushed out of unreal secularised bubbles into real conversations about God. Also Turks in Turkey are potential missionaries to much of the Middle eastern world. More Turks and people of other nations in the region are likely to become Christians if Turkey comes into the EU than if they are denied access in my view. Turkey is a necessary kick on the backside for European Christianity.

3) I think Turkey could be Europes bridge into Asia and to fast growing markets but Europe is also a better vision for Turkey than a merely Asian one. Europe can bring the best out of Turkey and even solve its long term demographic issues by utilising a growing Turkish workforce, providing Christian influences, more freedoms for Turks and higher standards also.
 
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As an EU citizen I used to be firmly against Turkish entry into the EU ("they just aren't European"), but I've come to see that that was a position born of prejudice.

I don't see why the Union shouldn't expand to include any state which abides by the standards of democracy, the rule of law and human rights. I'm not fully satisfied that Turkey is completely to that point, but they are moving towards it, and when they make it I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed in.
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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I agree. Turkey is part of the 7th head of the beast.

And here I was thinking Turkey was the left fin in the tail of the Platypus of Ultimate Doom.

Thanks for setting me straight. You learn something new every day on teh Interwebz.
 
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ArnautDaniel

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This is a perversion of Islam, a way to impose one's political will in a society and base it in our religion. Keep Islam out of the West? Too late for that, as something like 20K Americans convert to Islam every year.

Religion is a wonderful thing until you look at what real people really do in its name.

Only then do you discover that everyone perverts their religion and no one actually practices it.

But everyone pretends that they are doing something related to that ideal religion no one bothers with.

Oh our ability to deceive ourselves!
 
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