Turkey is part of Europe. Fear keeps it out of the EU

[Archaeopteryx]

Yeah... we should just exclude majority Muslim countries from NATO, the EU and every other international organisation imaginable, and then have the temerity to pretend we care about and promote pluarlism.

 

[Ellinas]

Yeah... we should just exclude majority Muslim countries from NATO, the EU and every other international organisation imaginable, and then have the temerity to pretend we care about and promote pluarlism.

Exclude from NATO; NO they should not be excluded from this alliance. The EU is not about pluralism. It is about a cohesive and functioning alliance of countries based on economic necessity. The EU cannot function if the cohesive foundation of a common cultural bond between the European countries is broken by the introduction of a member that is notorious for its dictatorial attitude towards its citizens and neighbours, not to mention the fact that it refuses to recognise one member of the EU (Cyprus).

Let me clarify this by an example:

Imagine if the Americas had a union like the EU and China wanted to become a member. This would constitute a hurdle to decision making that would render this union impotent!

Sure China does not border the US but the point I am making is the cultural and mindset of the government of Turkey is so different that it would be like the above example.

Turkey even goes so far as to dictate to European nations that have Turkish descent citizens on how to treat those citizens! This is blatant meddling of internal affairs.

Imagine if a Baptist Church decided to appoint an atheist as their preacher. Imagine if congress were to appoint as chairman a Taliban! The differences are so great that such pluralism would constitute a violation of the basic principles of the organisation in question.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Exclude from NATO; NO they should not be excluded from this alliance. The EU is not about pluralism. It is about a cohesive and functioning alliance of countries based on economic necessity. The EU cannot function if the cohesive foundation of a common cultural bond between the European countries is broken by the introduction of a member that is notorious for its dictatorial attitude towards its citizens and neighbours, not to mention the fact that it refuses to recognise one member of the EU (Cyprus).

Let me clarify this by an example:

Imagine if the Americas had a union like the EU and China wanted to become a member. This would constitute a hurdle to decision making that would render this union impotent!

Sure China does not border the US but the point I am making is the cultural and mindset of the government of Turkey is so different that it would be like the above example.

Turkey even goes so far as to dictate to European nations that have Turkish descent citizens on how to treat those citizens! This is blatant meddling of internal affairs.

Imagine if a Baptist Church decided to appoint an atheist as their preacher. Imagine if congress were to appoint as chairman a Taliban! The differences are so great that such pluralism would constitute a violation of the basic principles of the organisation in question.

Okay, okay, point ceded.

But I was responding to interpreter's statement, "Neither should Albania (another Muslim nation) be allowed to join the EU."

I suppose I should've taken a different approach though. I suspected that interpreter's opposition to Albania joining the EU had little to do with their internal affairs, political status or human rights record, but solely because they are a nation with a significant Muslim population. That a nation has a majority Muslim population is, on its own, no reason for it to be refused out-right from potential political unions. It should be refused on more legitimate grounds, such as failing to secure the rights of its citizens, poor or failing democracy. Etc.

 

[Ellinas]

Okay, okay, point ceded.

But I was responding to interpreter's statement, "Neither should Albania (another Muslim nation) be allowed to join the EU."

We have no problems with Albania joining the EU. They are an European country. In fact more Albanians are atheists than practising Muslims. But this has nothing to do with it. Albania has gone a long way into complying to EU standards. There is no reason not to allow her to join.

 

[interpreter]

Yeah... we should just exclude majority Muslim countries from NATO, the EU and every other international organisation imaginable, and then have the temerity to pretend we care about and promote pluarlism.

I don't pretend to care about or promote pluralism. I am not a liberal.

 

[interpreter]

We have no problems with Albania joining the EU. They are an European country. In fact more Albanians are atheists than practising Muslims. But this has nothing to do with it. Albania has gone a long way into complying to EU standards. There is no reason not to allow her to join.

The CIA world fact book says 70% of Albanians are Muslims. But better to let them in than Turkey which is 99.8% Muslims and some of them don't like us.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I don't pretend to care about or promote pluralism. I am not a liberal.

I guess you're not a fan of the Founders then. They believed in pluralism.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The CIA world fact book says 70% of Albanians are Muslims. But better to let them in than Turkey which is 99.8% Muslims and some of them don't like us.

See what I meant Ellinas. Interpreter doesn't care if Albania or Turkey comply with EU standards or have a good human rights record. She doesn't want them in 'Christian Europe' solely because of their significant Muslim populations.

 

[Ellinas]

See what I meant Ellinas. Interpreter doesn't care if Albania or Turkey comply with EU standards or have a good human rights record. She doesn't want them in 'Christian Europe' solely because of their significant Muslim populations.

Europe's Christians in their majority consider most American Christians as leaning if not fundamentalist in their beliefs. In Europe Christianity is mainly two things; One: a cultural identity and two: Christianity is not seen as a holier than thou religion and thus allows for pluralism. I know many communists and socialists who are church going Christians! Something that I think one will be hard pressed to find in the USA!

 

[KarateCowboy]

That fear is well founded.

 

[interpreter]

I guess you're not a fan of the Founders then. They believed in pluralism.

Don't think so. The constitution only says the government will not establish a state church as in Great Britain. The US was still founded by Christians.

 

[TheNewWorldMan]

Don't think so. The constitution only says the government will not establish a state church as in Great Britain. The US was still founded by Christians.

That's an oversimplification. There's the part about no law regarding the establishment of religion, no restraint on the practice thereof, as well as no religious test ever being required for public office.

That's a bit more fulsome than "government will not establish a state church as in Great Britain."

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Don't think so. The constitution only says the government will not establish a state church as in Great Britain.

Exactly. That policy demonstrates a tolerance of pluralism. No one Church is favoured by the State, and each person is permitted to pursue their faith, within limits, according to their own interests. That is pluralism. The opposite of which is a policy that enforces a monolithic structure upon the people (i.e. discourages pluralism). Hence my conclusion that the Founders were pluralists. They believed that people tend to form factions according to their beliefs and interests, and that this tendency toward 'factionalism' should not necessarily be taken as a bad thing. So they envisioned a society in which each faction was tolerated and permitted to pursue its interests, limited only by Law. I.e. pluralism.

The US was still founded by Christians.

And Deists.

 

[KarateCowboy]

And Deists.

I don't think any can be rightly called Deists. They believed in providence: God acting His will in the lives of men. That a Theist makes.

 

[interpreter]

I, like most Christians, are not pluralists because Jesus said,
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:16

 

[Christos Anesti]

Personally I enjoy many aspects of Turkish culture , music, food , and especially poetry (Yunus Emre is great) . I don't think Turkey should be admitted to the EU until they allow greater religious freedom and expression to the Orthodox Christians there though. The Turkish state is always butting in to the business of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

 

[Philothei]

Exactly. That policy demonstrates a tolerance of pluralism. No one Church is favoured by the State, and each person is permitted to pursue their faith, within limits, according to their own interests. That is pluralism. The opposite of which is a policy that enforces a monolithic structure upon the people (i.e. discourages pluralism). Hence my conclusion that the Founders were pluralists. They believed that people tend to form factions according to their beliefs and interests, and that this tendency toward 'factionalism' should not necessarily be taken as a bad thing. So they envisioned a society in which each faction was tolerated and permitted to pursue its interests, limited only by Law. I.e. pluralism.



And Deists.

what is your take in a government that does not 'tolerate' any religion. Straight out denies its very existance? That is what happens in Turkey and their government... It denies Christians their right to express their religious beliefs. Not being about to have a Christian school This is religious intolerance? Nope it is not and violates the human rights to worship one's God and learn about their own faith.

 

[Mystman]

what is your take in a government that does not 'tolerate' any religion. Straight out denies its very existance? That is what happens in Turkey and their government... It denies Christians their right to express their religious beliefs. Not being about to have a Christian school This is religious intolerance? Nope it is not and violates the human rights to worship one's God and learn about their own faith.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here...

..but: Freedom of religion in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Philothei]

YouTube - Patriarch Feels "Crucified" in Turkey (1/2)


YouTube - Patriarch Feels "Crucified" in Turkey (2/2)

Maybe this will persuade you? Or a Christian Hierarch is lying?

I would not call the confuscated church property exactly pro-religious.... do you?

I would not call the fact that Turkey denies to let our church open their School "democratic" either or proof to their "religious tolerance" either....

Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, and Jewish religious groups may operate schools under the supervision of the Education Ministry. The curricula of these schools include information unique to the cultures of the three groups. The Ministry reportedly verifies if the child's father or mother is from that minority community before the child may enroll. Other non-Muslim minorities do not have schools of their own.[4]

that is such a lie

In 2009 the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Istanbul continued to seek to reopen the Halki seminary on the island of Heybeli in the Sea of Marmara. The seminary was closed in 1971 after the Patriarchate, to avoid the seminary being administered by the state, chose not to comply with a state requirement to nationalize.[4] In March 2007 the Yedikule Surp Pirgic Armenian Hospital Foundation in Istanbul dropped an ECHR claim when the Government agreed to return two properties and pay approximately $20,000 (15,000 Euro) compensation for court expenses to the foundation.[1]
No law explicitly prohibits proselytizing or religious conversions; however, many prosecutors and police regarded proselytizing and religious activism with suspicion. Police occasionally prevented Christians from handing out religious literature. The Government reported 157 conversions, including 92 to Islam and 63 from Islam to a different religion. Proselytizing is often considered socially unacceptable; Christians performing missionary work were occasionally beaten and insulted. If the proselytizers are foreigners, they may be deported, but generally they are able to reenter the country. Police officers may report students who meet with Christian missionaries to their families or to university authorities.[1]

did you read the above? That is Turkey's toleration....

from your own source

Freedom of religion in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ArnautDaniel]

Nothing is stopping the Patriarch from moving.

It makes sense as almost none of his flock is where he is.