Turkey is part of Europe. Fear keeps it out of the EU

[Christos Anesti]

Nothing is stopping the Patriarch from moving.

Why should he have to move? The Patriarchate has been there longer then the state of Turkey or even the Ottoman Empire for that matter.

"They could always move" is usually a bad argument. Racists , anti-immigrant people and their ilk often use it. " If Black people don't like the racism in America why don't they move back to Africa"...etc.

It makes sense as almost none of his flock is where he is.

I wonder why that is?

 

[Philothei]

;54175268]Nothing is stopping the Patriarch from moving.

why would he leave? We have property there and a flock it does not matter if the numbers are not there... That is the answer to Turkey's violation of human rights? nice

 

[Philothei]

According to you then maybe the Indians in America should "move" since they are also "minority" too? Or forbid them from having their own schools?

 

[ArnautDaniel]

Why should he have to move? The Patriarchate has been there longer then the state of Turkey or even the Ottoman Empire for that matter.

<staff edit>

The Turks won, the Greeks lost.

Move on.

"They could always move" is usually a bad argument. Racists , anti-immigrant people and their ilk often use it. " If Black people don't like the racism in America why don't they move back to Africa"...etc.

The last I checked, the Turks had basically dealt with the Greeks in Turkey.

 

[ArnautDaniel]

According to you then maybe the Indians in America should "move" since they are also "minority" too? Or forbid them from having their own schools?

Well there isn't actually an "Indian-land" that they can move to, like the Greeks in Turkey have in...well...Greece.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

what is your take in a government that does not 'tolerate' any religion. Straight out denies its very existance? That is what happens in Turkey and their government... It denies Christians their right to express their religious beliefs. Not being about to have a Christian school This is religious intolerance? Nope it is not and violates the human rights to worship one's God and learn about their own faith.

I was a bit confused because first you implied that the Government you were speaking of does not tolerate 'any' religion, but then you specified Christianity as the object of intolerance. Just to clarify... which do you mean?

A State that is not neutral with respect to the religions of its citizens is a State that does not tolerate pluralism - it outlaws it. Such States often do so because they wish to impose a particular state-favoured religion, usually with the goal of creating a monlithic society.

 

[Christos Anesti]

To stop looking like a pathetic old loser living in the past.

I don't think they are overly concerned that you might consider them "pathetic losers living in the past" and therefore don't see that as a reason for moving.

The last I checked, the Turks had basically dealt with the Greeks in Turkey.

Because injustices might have taken place in the past it's now perfectly acceptable for the Turkish government to continue them today?

 

[Philothei]

Well there isn't actually an "Indian-land" that they can move to, like the Greeks in Turkey have in...well...Greece.

wrong they can move to south America... why not there seem to be the majority of them after the whites chased them out the same as the Turks chased out and killed all the Armenians and Greeks...Not to mention the Kurds.. These Greeks are Asia Minor Greeks period as Indians from South America are just that... How fare would it be to kick some out to their neighbour's land?

 

[Philothei]

I was a bit confused because first you implied that the Government you were speaking of does not tolerate 'any' religion, but then you specified Christianity as the object of intolerance. Just to clarify... which do you mean?

A State that is not neutral with respect to the religions of its citizens is a State that does not tolerate pluralism - it outlaws it. Such States often do so because they wish to impose a particular state-favoured religion, usually with the goal of creating a monlithic society.

That is not the case for Turkey. Turkey talks with both ends of its mouth. While the military that is the underlined force of its government talks about "a democratic" state; The fact that Turkey has forbid the "head covering" in universities is a bragging point of their Kemalian "pluralism". While in the other hand they favor and let the extremists Islamists(the gray wolves) to terrorize all these chrisitan minorities living in Turkey...

 

[ArnautDaniel]

I don't think they are overly concerned that you might consider them "pathetic losers living in the past" and therefore don't see that as a reason for moving.

Well they can say whatever they want, and it is their own business.

What it looks like is that they don't want to give up on Constantinople as it is a symbol the last time that the Greeks constituted a major power that actually mattered on the world stage.

Because injustices might have taken place in the past it's now perfectly acceptable for the Turkish government to continue them today?

The smart man at the poker table knows when he has lost and moves on to better horizons.

Again, they can do what they want.

Of course, as an American, I don't see why the US should care.

 

[ArnautDaniel]

wrong they can move to south America... why not there seem to be the majority of them after the whites chased them out the same as the Turks chased out and killed all the Armenians and Greeks...Not to mention the Kurds.. These Greeks are Asia Minor Greeks period as Indians from South America are just that... How fare would it be to kick some out to their neighbour's land?

On the contrary, you are under the illusion that all the pre-Columbian American peoples are a single society. They are not.

It makes no sense for say a Lakota to make common cause with Mayas in Central America or Incas in Peru.

On the other hand Greeks in Greece and Turkey represent a common culture and common language.

If there were a Lakota state existing somewhere then I'd wonder why Lakotas in North and South Dakota hadn't gone there.

However there is no reason for those same Lakotas to go to Mexico or Peru, or Guatemala, or any of those place.

 

[Philothei]

;54176498]Well they can say whatever they want, and it is their own business.

What it looks like is that they don't want to give up on Constantinople as it is a symbol the last time that the Greeks constituted a major power that actually mattered on the world stage.

Nope if they want to join EU they have to have their human rights in order and they never bothered to deal with it that is why they are not even considered...

The smart man at the poker table knows when he has lost and moves on to better horizons.

this is not poker
The man in Constantinople is a religious figure and some respect is due to him. You should at least treat others the way you want them to treat you.
The Patriarch has any right to be like the Patriarch of Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria and so forth. They have a right to there as any muslim has a right to express his relgious obligations in any other country. That is double standard.

Again, they can do what they want.

Of course, as an American, I don't see why the US should care.

No they cannot if they claim to be a "democracy". And the US should care for they send their own missionaries that get persecuted from the tTurkish government.

 

[Philothei]

On the contrary, you are under the illusion that all the pre-Columbian American peoples are a single society. They are not.

It makes no sense for say a Lakota to make common cause with Mayas in Central America or Incas in Peru.

On the other hand Greeks in Greece and Turkey represent a common culture and common language.

If there were a Lakota state existing somewhere then I'd wonder why Lakotas in North and South Dakota hadn't gone there.

However there is no reason for those same Lakotas to go to Mexico or Peru, or Guatemala, or any of those place.

Greeks of Asia Minor are NOT the same as the Greeks of mainland Greece their language is not the same and they do have different customs and also why would anyone want to mobilize indiginous people regardless what language they speak? This is as absurd as it gets.

Even if there were Indians in Alaska and so forth why would we need to move these people while their land was 'taken' over?

The Patriarch has any right to be there like any ohter historical see of Christianity. Just because Governements have agendas that does not legalize their dislike for a certain religion

 

[ArnautDaniel]

Nope if they want to join EU they have to have their human rights in order and they never bothered to deal with it that is why they are not even considered...

You don't think that they have this little feud with the Greeks...the Greeks are already members of the EU...and the Greeks are working as hard as they can behind the scenes to make sure they never become members...might have something to do with things?

this is not poker

Well, reality is reality and idealism is idealism, and sometimes grownups just do what makes sense even if the listless dreamers don't like it.

The man in Constantinople is a religious figure and some respect is due to him. You should at least treat others the way you want them to treat you.

Yes but there is no reason for him to stay in Constantinople. I mean, the guy who was in Antioch found it sensible to move from nowhere Antioch to somewhere Damascus and the world didn't fall apart.

So why shouldn't the guy in Constantinople move to nearby Athens?

The Patriarch has any right to be like the Patriarch of Antioch,

...the latter residing now in...Damascus....

Jerusalem, Alexandria and so forth. They have a right to there as any muslim has a right to express his relgious obligations in any other country. That is double standard.

Most of the guy in Constantinople's flock is in nearby Greece...wouldn't it make sense for a religious leader to reside where his flock lives?

Of course it would make sense...if Constantinople didn't represent a Greek Golden Age that is long gone and that the Greeks refuse to let go of.

The guy in Contantinople would have left years ago had he instead been the guy in Nowhere-Southwestern-Turkey.

No they cannot if they claim to be a "democracy". And the US should care for they send their own missionaries that get persecuted from the Turkish government.

Oh, they are a "democracy" and the majority of people in that democracy want the Greeks and the guy in Constantinople to leave.

That is the wonder of majority rule.

But perhaps you are confusing "democracy" with something less democratic...something that restricts what the majority can actually do.

 

[Ellinas]

You don't think that they have this little feud with the Greeks...the Greeks are already members of the EU...and the Greeks are working as hard as they can behind the scenes to make sure they never become members...might have something to do with things?

Like you said: "Why should America care". So what are you doing defending the Turks? Turkey refuses to recognise an EU member state (Cyprus), this alone is enough to bar Turkeys accession to the EU! Even if Turkey was a role model of democracy! It is like a country recognising the USA but not the state of Texas.

Arnaut I have noticed that you do not like the Greeks very much! This is your prerogative. Just as much as it is ours to judge who becomes a member of the EU or not. The EU has nothing to do with the US!

 

[Philothei]

You don't think that they have this little feud with the Greeks...the Greeks are already members of the EU...and the Greeks are working as hard as they can behind the scenes to make sure they never become members...might have something to do with things?

Who says we do work hard not to let them in the EU? It is to our advantage to have them so they can finally stop violating the human rights and become finally a true democracy It is the French and Germans who they do not want them...

Well, reality is reality and idealism is idealism, and sometimes grownups just do what makes sense even if the listless dreamers don't like it.

Who is the dreamer? The ones who want to eliminate Christian presence in Turkey? or the ones who are already the Christian presence ?

Yes but there is no reason for him to stay in Constantinople. I mean, the guy who was in Antioch found it sensible to move from nowhere Antioch to somewhere Damascus and the world didn't fall apart.

So? that does not set the norm one Patriarchate did so? what about the rest?

So why shouldn't the guy in Constantinople move to nearby Athens?

We have our own Spiritual leader but I do not expect people to understand our ecclesiology..... We have our own Archbishop no need to have a Patriarch. His flock is all of Europe in case you are wondering. He is not only the hierarch for Turkey.... He is the spiritual leader of Australia, Western Europe, and Americas. So to say "go to Greece" is pointless.

Most of the guy in Constantinople's flock is in nearby Greece...wouldn't it make sense for a religious leader to reside where his flock lives?

totally incorrect! His flock is all over and to be in Constantinople juristictionally speaking is no problem at all since he "cannot be near" to all of his flock anyways

Of course it would make sense...if Constantinople didn't represent a Greek Golden Age that is long gone and that the Greeks refuse to let go of.

So much as the Turks should leave Thrace and go home.... But according to Lossaine Treaty we have that minority so what you say is pointless also since they have every right to be there. Kicking out a minority is "undemocratic" indeed; or then all African Americans should have been "kicked out"...or "Mexicans" etc....and still call America a democratic nation...

The guy in Contantinople would have left years ago had he instead been the guy in Nowhere-Southwestern-Turkey.

By far the Patriarch has recieved great honor from politicians from US and Europe

Oh, they are a "democracy" and the majority of people in that democracy want the Greeks and the guy in Constantinople to leave.

lol... how can this be but not a contradiction ? The majority wants a certain minority out? how about kicking out the Albanian minority out from Greece? Greeks do not likfe the Albanians shall we kick them out?
This is not how democracy works at all... Civilized people do not "vote" others out of their country ....

That is the wonder of majority rule.

But perhaps you are confusing "democracy" with something less democratic...something that restricts what the majority can actually do.

The majority rules applies to restrict immigration rules maybe but never to just vote for eliminating minorities out of one's country.. With this kind of "majority rules" laws Turkey can only dream to become part of the EU.

 

[Ellinas]

OK! some facts about Turkey that may help some of the posters understand the situation better.

Turkey has an occupying army in an EU country (Cyprus).
Turkey refuses to recognise that country (Cyprus) (like a country recognising the USA but refusing to recognise one of the states).
Turkey insists on joining the EU without having to recognise Cyprus.
Turkey violates Greek airspace on a daily basis Even though Greece is a member of the EU and a member of NATO like Turkey.
Turkey refuses to respect international law which states that 12 miles from the shore constitutes national boundary. Thus violates our national waters.
Turkey's Army has more power than the Government.
Turkey violates the rights of the Kurds in Turkey.
Turkey insists on having a say in the affairs of foreign countries that have citizens of Turkish descent. (She insists on the Orthodox Patriarch being a Turk citizen while also insisting the grand Mufti of the Muslims in Northern Greece to also be a Turk citizen).
Turkey has a dismal human rights record.
Turkey refuses rights to religious freedoms; even to Muslims (the veil is banned in educational institutions).
Turkey supports the GREY WOLVES (a notorious ultra nationalist group that uses violence as an end to a means)
Turkey has not stopped honour killings. More common in rural areas where a girl is in danger of being murdered by her family for frivolous reasons such as talking to a boy.
Turkey refuses to stem the tide of illegal immigrants destined for the EU countries (The majority pass through Turkey).

Now will someone show me why should Turkey be allowed to join the EU? Notice I have not mentioned the Fact that the majority in Turkey are Muslims (this would not constitute a valid reason legally although socially it could since the majority of the Turks are not progressive and permissive Muslims (see honour killings)).

Just the fact that she refuses to recognise an EU member state is grounds for refusal entry as a member to the EU.

 

[Annoula]

Well there isn't actually an "Indian-land" that they can move to, like the Greeks in Turkey have in...well...Greece.

my father was born in Asia Minor and his family had to flee their homeland after 1922. my grandfather was sent to army camps but he was very-very lucky because he was one of the ones that survived.

i also have relatives from Pontos that had to flee because of the Pontious genocide from the Turks. they left for Russia and managed to come back to Greece around the 60's. them and my father were all strangers to Greece. native Greeks were making fun of them because they were different from them. they were more civilized, and the truth is they helped Greece in many aspects and of course financially.

if the Turks give me my father's home back and all of his property, if they give me the food that my family was deprived because of this, if they give me the money it cost them, if they cure the diseases they caused, and bring back my dead people, if they apologize for all the distress they caused to my family and recognize the atrocities they did and the well-planned genocide of the Pontious, if they start respecting my countries borders (and not fly with their planes above my head - i live in an aegean island), if they respect the existence of another state-country (Cyprus - yes this is pretty serious), if they stop throwing over to us all this muslim illegal immigrants, if they stop celebrating the fall of Constantinoupoli every year, if they stop patronizing all the muslim immigrants that have flooded Europe...
i may think about them entering the EEC.
and yes, it was European Economic Community, now they turned it to European Community. why? who did they ask???


to the question: why should the US care?

my answer is: they should not. so please take back your American base in Crete and the problems it causes us.
did you know that 2 americans from this base were the major immolators to a jewish synagogue burning? do you know that before that was found out all the blames were toward the greeks and their racism??????????????

go back to your US country and stop messing up around the world. you destroyed the Balkans and now the Middle East. you caused major problems to the world while you were safely watching from your sofa.

your government people are causing sorrow around the planet. they are a threat to the human race.

wake up and stop them.

 

[buzuxi02]

Turkey is the second leading violator of UN security council resolutions after Israel, with no less than 24 violations that they willfully ignore. And unlike Israel there not involved in a conflict as complex as the palestinian situation.

Some of these violations are precisely in force so Turkey can ridicule european values. Anotherwords Turkey wants to join the European Union so they can have open borders with the rest of Europe while continuing to denigrate european culture. Since the 1800's Turkey has intentionally persecuted anything they percieved to be western oriented. This includes the extermination of the entire 50,000 maronite population in the late 1800's for viewing the pope of Rome as their leader (turks view any christian leader as an ethnarc). They done this by provoking the muslim sect of the druze to carry out their dirty work. They closed down the only christian theological school on Halki in 1974, since christianity and seminaries are too western for them and cannot operate without the government controlling them. They viewed Instanbul as too european so they drove out the greeks numbering from 110,000 in 1900's to about 2,000 today relegated to a ghetto, even though the treaty of Luasanne guaranteed their protection just like it guarantees the protection of turkish minority in greek Thrace.

Why in the world would Turkey want to join the EU when they have hatred for Europe and European institutions? Perhaps with a population of 70 million they want to spread their tentacles all over Europe and send out their poverty stricken citizens with the open borders that the EU allows for.

 

[Montalban]

Yes but there is no reason for him to stay in Constantinople. I mean, the guy who was in Antioch found it sensible to move from nowhere Antioch to somewhere Damascus and the world didn't fall apart.

So why shouldn't the guy in Constantinople move to nearby Athens?

Athens already has a church. Antioch 'ceased to be' a city.

Most of the guy in Constantinople's flock is in nearby Greece...wouldn't it make sense for a religious leader to reside where his flock lives?

Why should he move?