Trying to learn

[Wgw]

Not what God says. God says those who have Jesus living inside them are the True Church of Jesus or Body of Christ, do you follow the teaching in the Bible? No church of the world is the body of Christ, it made up from many people of all faiths in Jesus. I did not read that in the SoF that you believe yours in the only true church there is. In Rev Jesus spoke to 7 churches it would seem a simple reading of the text would show there are other churches of the world, how do you work you way around that?

The secen churches in question were local dioceses in the one Church. They were largely within Asia Minor, which is unaurprising since that area is known to have been the mission field of St. John. There are in like manner several Oriental Orthodox churches: the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of , the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church, the Armenian Catholicosates of Holy Etchmiadzin and Cilicia, the Armenian Patriarchates of Constantinople and Jerusalem, the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox, and the Eritreans.

These churches are all legitimately independent of each other yet collectively represent Oriental Orthodoxy. I myself am ecumenically minded and am disposed to also enumerate the Eastern Orthodox churches as members of the Church Catholic.

Now you claim that this approach is unscriptural, but provide no verse. On the other hand there are a plethora of verses I could give you. However I am disinclined to do so because of a certain fear you might simply disagree with our interpretation, claim that God is on your side, and throw them in my face while my coreligionists get slaughtered in Syria and Iraq.

 

[Wgw]

Oh my..
I came in here because the title of the OP said trying to learn.

I hope you all get it worked out.

If you would enjoy discussing our beliefs with us, I would be up for that.

 

[Wgw]

With that basic parameter in place, I am so glad that you have brought up the Revelation. I am not sure about my friend wgw's Syriac Orthodox Church, but my own Coptic Orthodox Church -- in contradistinction to the Eastern Orthodox Church -- actually reads the entire book of Revelation aloud during the Holy Week services, on a night we call "Abu Ghalimsees" (an Arabic corruption of the Greek "Apocalypsis", meaning Apocalypse).

Alas this is not a part of the Syriac Rite; I wish it were. Note that I have a complete set of Coptic liturgical texts and normally fall back on Coptic parishes when out of reach of a Syriac parish. That said, I wish the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril were more commonly in use.

The state of Syriac liturgics is fairly dire however in most parishes.

 

[Wgw]

You have no right to claim you are the only saved people on the planet and all the other churches are false religions.

Strictly speaking under US and European law we could claim anything we wanted. We could claim that failure to be an Oriental Orthodox would consign one's soul to be devoured by carniverous ethereal mushrooms. We could claim human beings were descended from clams, and installed on thisplanet by the evil Emperor Xenu (oh wait, the Scientologists beat us to that one).

However one is unlikely to find many Oriental Orthodox who would say that the non-Orthodox are damned. Actually I think on the whole we are more likely to admit the possibility or hope for the salvation of non-Christians than Baptists. We are not universalists however.

Orthodoxy represents the only entirely legitimate expression of the Christian faith. If you want to experience the faith of the early Christians, it exists chiefly in our parishes.

 

[Wgw]

Sorry but to claim your church is the only true body of Christ is to say everyone else is not saved. You don't know what saved means? that you accept Jesus and surrender to His will, and accept the gift that He paid your debt on the cross. I asked you about salvation to which you did not answer

On the subject of soteriology, I myself from my analysis of the OO fathers like St. Athanasius consider that ourmposition is effectively analogous to Eastern Orthodox Theosis. However, this is not as often expressed as forcefully; the simple answer tends to prevail and that answer is basically about "how do I get saved" rather than an explanation of the mechanics thereof. Since many people will be confused by the idea of Theosis, simply one should be baptized, chrismated and should participate in the liturgical and sacramental life of the Holy Orthodox Church.

The soteriology of Satisfaction, of penal substitutionary atonement, really originated with Anselm of Canterbury and is a Roman Catholic error. It was unknown to the early Church. The OO position is essentially that of the holy fathers of the councils of Nicea, Constantinople and Ephesus. Our view relates to an ascetic process driven by our Lord's example, which is in the Coptic liturgy particularly celebrated during the Lent, for example, in the antiohonal responses to Psalm 150, as I am sure dzheremi can verify.

 

[dzheremi]

You are entirely correct, wgw. Then is when we recall the Lord's time in the desert: "Jesus Christ fasted for us, 40 days and 40 nights."

During the weekdays of Great Lent we similarly recall the examples of the holy men who prepared our way in the times of old covenant, in the weekday doxology:

Fasting and prayer, are the salvation for our souls, purity and righteousness, they are what please God.


+ Fasting has raised Moses, up to the mountain, until he received the Law for us, from the Lord our God.


Fasting has raised Elijah, up to heaven, and has saved Daniel, from the den of lions.


+ Our Lord Jesus Christ, has fasted for us, forty days and forty nights, to save us from our sins.


And we too should also fast, with purity and righteousness, and let us also pray, proclaiming and saying.


+ "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Your name, may Your kingdom come [...] for Yours is the glory forever Amen."

 

[Wgw]

I know the melody for that and can sing it in English!

(I have probably spent as many liturgical hours in Coptic parishes as in Syriac, because there are many places where there is no convenient Syriac parish).

 

[dzheremi]

That's really cool.

Sadly, I have not had much of an opportunity to worship with Syriacs. At all the parishes I've been to, outside of converts the people have been pretty much only Copts, Ethiopians, and Sudanese. One of the deacons at the church I was baptized in was a dyed-in-the-wool Assyrian from Iraq (an interesting guy; the product of an Egyptian/Iraqi marriage, so he had a Coptic name to go with his Assyrian identity), but that's about it. It's a shame, too, as I am completely in love with the Syriac Orthodox Church, and Syriac Christianity played a large part in my formative interest in Orthodoxy as a Roman Catholic (my father of confession in those days had befriended a Chaldean Catholic priest while in seminary and was really taken by Syriac spirituality since that time, and he would read and discuss the hymns and poetry of St. Ephrem with me on occasion).

 

[Bluelion]

SoF needs to be update i spoke to some who said it is a teaching of your church that you are the only true church.

I quoted Mat 10 because what it say to me if you reject some one with Jesus living in side them you also reject Jesus. It would appear you guys reject many of God's children while calming you are the only children. Just what i gather. It seems to be similar to what the Jews did, who did not include Gentiles at first. That's fine and all that is what your church teaches and this is your forum, but I don't care to speak to those who deny Christ in me while claiming they Have Jesus. So while i was open to learn, I am no longer, it is nothing I want any part of. So sorry to interrupt your section, i will be going now.

 

[Wgw]

SoF needs to be update i spoke to some who said it is a teaching of your church that you are the only true church.

I quoted Mat 10 because what it say to me if you reject some one with Jesus living in side them you also reject Jesus. It would appear you guys reject many of God's children while calming you are the only children. Just what i gather. It seems to be similar to what the Jews did, who did not include Gentiles at first. That's fine and all that is what your church teaches and this is your forum, but I don't care to speak to those who deny Christ in me while claiming they Have Jesus. So while i was open to learn, I am no longer, it is nothing I want any part of. So sorry to interrupt your section, i will be going now.

Whereas it is true that the Oriental Orthodox regard the Orthodox Church as being the One Holy Catholic and Aposrolic Church, it is untrue to say we reject any of God's children. Orthodoxy is not a hateful, hate-filled cult. We are actively engaged in ecumenical dialogue and are represented in the World Council of Churches alongside various Protestant denominations.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't know how you could get that impression from anything posted in this thread, Bluelion, but do as you wish. May God be with you.

 

[Wgw]

I think he blew up at us because I mentioned we refard ourselves as the one holy catholic and apostolic church, but it would have been I think dishonest had I sought to conceal this fact.

 

[JCFantasy23]

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[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

This was an interesting thread (and I see so many similarities between EO and OO positions, with some differences in diction and semantics). I'm sorry it ended up the way it did with the OP.

 

[Wgw]

This was an interesting thread (and I see so many similarities between EO and OO positions, with some differences in diction and semantics). I'm sorry it ended up the way it did with the OP.

The difference between the two is the word "from" vs "in." I am very hopeful the schism will end soon so there will be just one Orthodox communion.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

The difference between the two is the word "from" vs "in." I am very hopeful the schism will end soon so there will be just one Orthodox communion.

It would be nice! As someone who majored in anthropology at university, I find the linguistic nuances to be interesting, and I think that while that's a hurdle between EO and OO, it's not one so big that it can't be conquered.

 

[dzheremi]

I think there are more issues at play than just "from" vs. "in" (though that is the crux of the Christological controversy with regard to Chalcedon), but I always tell my EO friends that of all of the schisms that sadly afflict Christianity, the separation of the EO and OO is basically the only one that it makes sense to have hope of resolving. Even though I do not believe we are the same, I do believe that when I talk to most EO, I am talking with people who are serious and speak a very similar theological language as my own church does (not the same, but substantially similar; similar where it most matters, you could say). I just don't get that same sense from RCs, Protestants, etc.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

I agree. I think EO/OO have the highest chance of reconciliation out of any of the "branches" of Christianity.

I grew up Protestant (UMC), for what it's worth. While I'm one of those inherently logical types, the theology of Protestantism and the presentation of the spirituality didn't "feel" right. Internally, I'm this weird push-pull tug-of-war between logic and mysticism. I guess we all have our core contradictions, but church is such a nice escape from the overly logical part of me). I couldn't understand the Protestant or Evangelical interpretations of the Bible -- a lot of the time, they're not sensible to me. Catholicism made a lot of sense (it appeals to my logical side), and it was less scary to my parents when I told them that I was exploring RCC/EO/OO (the last two were categorized as "too ethnic" by my upper middle class white mother). I dunno, tho. Even logically, I have some problems with the RCC presentation of Christianity, and the apologetics sometimes don't make "sense". However, both the EO and OO have merits within the paradigm of both experienced spirituality and intellectualized spirituality. There's balance there, and they're much less legalistic.

 

[Wgw]

I agree. I think EO/OO have the highest chance of reconciliation out of any of the "branches" of Christianity.

I grew up Protestant (UMC), for what it's worth. While I'm one of those inherently logical types, the theology of Protestantism and the presentation of the spirituality didn't "feel" right. Internally, I'm this weird push-pull tug-of-war between logic and mysticism. I guess we all have our core contradictions, but church is such a nice escape from the overly logical part of me). I couldn't understand the Protestant or Evangelical interpretations of the Bible -- a lot of the time, they're not sensible to me. Catholicism made a lot of sense (it appeals to my logical side), and it was less scary to my parents when I told them that I was exploring RCC/EO/OO (the last two were categorized as "too ethnic" by my upper middle class white mother). I dunno, tho. Even logically, I have some problems with the RCC presentation of Christianity, and the apologetics sometimes don't make "sense". However, both the EO and OO have merits within the paradigm of both experienced spirituality and intellectualized spirituality. There's balance there, and they're much less legalistic.

I myself converted from the UMC.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

I myself converted from the UMC.

My mother is a die hard Methodist who dabbles in Fundamentalism. She's very big into all of the "End Times" stuff that Evangelical and Fundamentalist quarters churn out, which for whatever reason she doesn't see as at odds with Wesleyan theology. She also signs up for every Bible study that her church does on the Book of Revelation. It's a very weird situation, and we've butted heads on the issue before.

Mom: "Jesus is returning soon! All of the signs are there! Natural disasters, Damascus is in ruins, there's strife in the Middle East, and the Jews are being persecuted!"
Me: "Uh ... yes, he'll return eventually, and it's better not to speculate on it past being mindful. That's what the Bible says."
Mom: "But Jesus is coming soon! The signs are there! We need to be prepared!"
Me: *walks away*

Yes, be prepared, but living a Christian life already prepares you for it. There's no reason or need to speculate or obsess over it. It's very odd to me, but I guess her UMC is big on eschatology. I've just never understood the obsession with it.