Trying to learn

[Bluelion]

I see a lot of post about churches and what not, but the one thing I thought we would find common ground on God, seems to be very little about Him.

Any one up for some talk about Jesus? Like do you believe in The Trinity? The Father, The son, and The Holy Spirit?

I read in depth on entering this section about Jesus Humanity, Baptist believe the same thing. Jesus had both Human and divine nature but the two were not mixed, also Jesus was a little bit different than us Because He never sinned and was Born with out sin, so he did not have a sinful nature, but allowed Him self to be tempted as we are. Not sure if you guys and gals believe that or not?

any way just being friendly, see if anyone is up for chat.

 

[dzheremi]

Hi! Nobody really posts in this forum. It's quite sad. So it's very nice to see your post. Welcome!

To answer your question, yes, we are traditional Trinitarian Christians. We believe in the full humanity and full divinity of Christ in one nature after the union (incarnation), without confusion or mixture, who cannot be divided after the union.

 

[Wgw]

The Orienta Orthodox are basically the Coptic (Egyptian), Syriac (Aramaic speaking), Armenian and Ethiopian Orthodox. The only really substantial difference wih the Eastern Orthodx is Chalcedon, but the liturgy is slightly different in each OO church; the OOs are generally in communion with the exception of a minor schism involving the Indian branch of the Syriac church.

 

[Wgw]

Hi! Nobody really posts in this forum. It's quite sad. So it's very nice to see your post. Welcome!

To answer your question, yes, we are traditional Trinitarian Christians. We believe in the full humanity and full divinity of Christ in one nature after the union (incarnation), without confusion or mixture, who cannot be divided after the union.

You know, dzhremi, we might well try and fix that.

 

[Bluelion]

Hi! Nobody really posts in this forum. It's quite sad. So it's very nice to see your post. Welcome!

To answer your question, yes, we are traditional Trinitarian Christians. We believe in the full humanity and full divinity of Christ in one nature after the union (incarnation), without confusion or mixture, who cannot be divided after the union.

Doesn't seem all that different then what we believe. What are your views on salvation? and on the security of that salvation?

 

[Bluelion]

You know, dzhremi, we might well try and fix that.

fix what?

 

[Wgw]

fix what?

The fact that this subforum is virtually devoid of life.

 

[Bluelion]

I don't get it, it is in the same section as the baptist and we get plenty of people. To be honest i don't think many people know about you guys. I saw it and was like hey what is that. I thought it was the Asian church, I studied some of there old religions under a Chinese man and was wondering how they apply it to Jesus. Now that you have explain where your church is I am even more interested because of all the persecution of Christians over there, So you guys must be doing something right. Just trying to get to know my Brothers and Sisters and see if in fact you are family.

 

[Wgw]

Well I used to be a Methodist but could not take the theological liberalism any more; when my pastor came out as gay, I left and joined the Syriac Orthodox church after a short while. I had been fascinated with Syriac Orthodoxy since I was 15. The Syriac church speaks an Aramaic dialect; our Lord also spoke Aramaic, albeit a different dialect, but its close enough.

The differences with Baptists are that we have icons, we baptize infants and children, and give them the Eucharist; we believe the Eucharist to be the actual body and blood of the Lord, we have a high sacramental theology, and we regard Orthodoxy by itself as the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, although this does not preclude us from hoping for the salvation of all Christians.

We also have bishops, as opposed to the congregational polity of Baptist churches. The bishops preside over dioceses; together they form the Holy Synod of each member church of the Oriental Orthodox communion; each Synod is presided over by a Patriarch or Catholicos, but the Patriarch is himself another bishop, the first among equals.

 

[Bluelion]

sounds very political So you think your church is the only true church, and that the true church is not the body of Christ?

 

[Wgw]

No, the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ. I think many OOs such as myself would include our Eastern Orthodox brethren in that definiton despite the bitter disagreement over Chalcedon. Our view is that the Roman Catholics beca,e alienated from the Church, and in turn the Protestants became alienated from them; Oriental Orthodoxy has been out of communion with Rome since the fifth century.

 

[Bluelion]

No, the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ. I think many OOs such as myself would include our Eastern Orthodox brethren in that definiton despite the bitter disagreement over Chalcedon. Our view is that the Roman Catholics beca,e alienated from the Church, and in turn the Protestants became alienated from them; Oriental Orthodoxy has been out of communion with Rome since the fifth century.

Not what God says. God says those who have Jesus living inside them are the True Church of Jesus or Body of Christ, do you follow the teaching in the Bible? No church of the world is the body of Christ, it made up from many people of all faiths in Jesus. I did not read that in the SoF that you believe yours in the only true church there is. In Rev Jesus spoke to 7 churches it would seem a simple reading of the text would show there are other churches of the world, how do you work you way around that?

 

[dzheremi]

Bluelion, I would like to remind you in a friendly manner that the congregational forums (such as this OO forum, or the main/non-debate EO forum, or the RC forum, etc.) are to be debate-free zones wherein visitors from outside of the churches in question are requested to not teach against the beliefs of the church(es) represented by the congregational forum. So our ecclesiology is not something to be taught against in this or any thread. Questions are fine, but statements such as "that's not what God says" that place our ecclesiology in opposition to God are not. Orthodox ecclesiology, like every aspect of our faith, is something to be learned, and in that learning, meant to illuminate the soul rather than to cause arguments.

With that basic parameter in place, I am so glad that you have brought up the Revelation. I am not sure about my friend wgw's Syriac Orthodox Church, but my own Coptic Orthodox Church -- in contradistinction to the Eastern Orthodox Church -- actually reads the entire book of Revelation aloud during the Holy Week services, on a night we call "Abu Ghalimsees" (an Arabic corruption of the Greek "Apocalypsis", meaning Apocalypse). When we reach the section dealing with the Holy Spirit's sayings to the churches, the people's refrain (to be said at places where the main chanter pauses) is "He who has ears let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches". So it is obvious from this service that we do indeed recognize that other churches exist. But the lesson here is instructive: Each of the churches spoken to has a specific malady, and a specific remedy given to her by God, so that if we listen to (hear) what the Spirit says to each one, we will know the remedy for these weaknesses that are to be guarded against by every church in every age. (For a Coptic treatment of Revelation, you may read Fr. Tadros Yacoub Malaty's book on the subject and investigate the Patristic quotes given there: Fr. Tadros Y. Malaty Commentary on the Book of Revelation [opens as a pdf].)

It is not enough to simply recognize that there are other churches which are not the Orthodox Church. We do that already. But we also maintain that the Orthodox Church is uniquely faithful throughout history and into eternity in ways that other bodies claiming to be the Church are not. It is important to understand here that this is not to the credit of any Orthodox Christian. You have written that "those who have Jesus living inside them are the True Church of Jesus or Body of Christ", and this is something that I cannot imagine any Orthodox Christian ever disagreeing with. We simply believe that the believers have congregated throughout time in communion as particular churches found in specific places among particular people. This is something that is also borne out of a simple reading of Revelation (and elsewhere), too. You have probably noticed that the Pauline letters, for instance, are often written to particular groups of people: "The Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians", "The Letter of St. Paul to the Romans", etc. Corinth, Rome, Philippi, etc. are all geographical locations, and Paul's letters are addressed to the church as it is gathered at those locations.

We continue on in this very early model not due to politics (after all, the world was not politically divided up as it is now ~2000 years ago), but because we have preserved a very early way of being Christian which includes this 1st century understanding of the church as having a physical reality in the form of people assembled together in particular places. Similarly, we chant in old languages (sometimes), we preserve old practices (all the time), and we carry on the faith that was given once and for all to the saints (for all time) not for the sake of declaring others to be worse off than we, but because this is the essence of what it means to be Orthodox, and not some other kind of Christian. As my own priest is fond of saying about other Christians, "Yes, of course they are Christians, and we love them; but they are not Orthodox unless they are Orthodox." (Highlighting, I suppose, that there is something additional expected of Orthodox Christians above and beyond agreed upon individual points with any particular non-Orthodox group or individual. So we may actually find that we agree on lots of things but still remain out of communion because of comparatively fewer things than what we agree on, as is the case with regard to our relationship to the more well-known Eastern Orthodox.)

I hope that helps to clarify things and gives you some things to think about. Please let me know if you have any questions.

 

[Bluelion]

Bluelion, I would like to remind you in a friendly manner that the congregational forums (such as this OO forum, or the main/non-debate EO forum, or the RC forum, etc.) are to be debate-free zones wherein visitors from outside of the churches in question are requested to not teach against the beliefs of the church(es) represented by the congregational forum. So our ecclesiology is not something to be taught against in this or any thread. Questions are fine, but statements such as "that's not what God says" that place our ecclesiology in opposition to God are not. Orthodox ecclesiology, like every aspect of our faith, is something to be learned, and in that learning, meant to illuminate the soul rather than to cause arguments.

With that basic parameter in place, I am so glad that you have brought up the Revelation. I am not sure about my friend wgw's Syriac Orthodox Church, but my own Coptic Orthodox Church -- in contradistinction to the Eastern Orthodox Church -- actually reads the entire book of Revelation aloud during the Holy Week services, on a night we call "Abu Ghalimsees" (an Arabic corruption of the Greek "Apocalypsis", meaning Apocalypse). When we reach the section dealing with the Holy Spirit's sayings to the churches, the people's refrain (to be said at places where the main chanter pauses) is "He who has ears let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches". So it is obvious from this service that we do indeed recognize that other churches exist. But the lesson here is instructive: Each of the churches spoken to has a specific malady, and a specific remedy given to her by God, so that if we listen to (hear) what the Spirit says to each one, we will know the remedy for these weaknesses that are to be guarded against by every church in every age. (For a Coptic treatment of Revelation, you may read Fr. Tadros Yacoub Malaty's book on the subject and investigate the Patristic quotes given there: Fr. Tadros Y. Malaty Commentary on the Book of Revelation [opens as a pdf].)

It is not enough to simply recognize that there are other churches which are not the Orthodox Church. We do that already. But we also maintain that the Orthodox Church is uniquely faithful throughout history and into eternity in ways that other bodies claiming to be the Church are not. It is important to understand here that this is not to the credit of any Orthodox Christian. You have written that "those who have Jesus living inside them are the True Church of Jesus or Body of Christ", and this is something that I cannot imagine any Orthodox Christian ever disagreeing with. We simply believe that the believers have congregated throughout time in communion as particular churches found in specific places among particular people. This is something that is also borne out of a simple reading of Revelation (and elsewhere), too. You have probably noticed that the Pauline letters, for instance, are often written to particular groups of people: "The Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians", "The Letter of St. Paul to the Romans", etc. Corinth, Rome, Philippi, etc. are all geographical locations, and Paul's letters are addressed to the church as it is gathered at those locations.

We continue on in this very early model not due to politics (after all, the world was not politically divided up as it is now ~2000 years ago), but because we have preserved a very early way of being Christian which includes this 1st century understanding of the church as having a physical reality in the form of people assembled together in particular places. Similarly, we chant in old languages (sometimes), we preserve old practices (all the time), and we carry on the faith that was given once and for all to the saints (for all time) not for the sake of declaring others to be worse off than we, but because this is the essence of what it means to be Orthodox, and not some other kind of Christian. As my own priest is fond of saying about other Christians, "Yes, of course they are Christians, and we love them; but they are not Orthodox unless they are Orthodox." (Highlighting, I suppose, that there is something additional expected of Orthodox Christians above and beyond agreed upon individual points with any particular non-Orthodox group or individual. So we may actually find that we agree on lots of things but still remain out of communion because of comparatively fewer things than what we agree on, as is the case with regard to our relationship to the more well-known Eastern Orthodox.)

I hope that helps to clarify things and gives you some things to think about. Please let me know if you have any questions.

I can appreciate your sensitivity, But in no way did I go against anything listed in your SoF. In there it does not make the claim you are the only true church of Jesus. maybe you can appreciate my sensitivity, Me who has Jesus and am a slave and son of God told I am not. I am sorry but you are breaking forum rules, the part where you are not allowed to say to some one who profess Jesus that they are not a Christian or saved, I have not done this to you but you have done this to me by claiming I am not the body of Jesus. Would you care to report and see what the admins say about who broke what rules? So my response was that is not what God's word says, and unless you can show me it say otherwise I am sticking by it. You have no right to claim you are the only saved people on the planet and all the other churches are false religions. I may have to have a talk with staff. Now I see why no one post here.

I happen to be in ministry with the education behind it. You talk a lot about your church but you have told me nothing about God, that is where i was hoping we could find common ground. Instead you tell me about man ideas, such as speaking in many languages, and that shows me what? That you study hard, or are you suggesting you have the gift from the Holy Spirit and can speak in all languages? Don't bother answering I am not coming back but will be telling staff about what you are claiming in this section.

 

[dzheremi]

I can appreciate your sensitivity, But in no way did I go against anything listed in your SoF. In there it does not make the claim you are the only true church of Jesus. maybe you can appreciate my sensitivity, Me who has Jesus and am a slave and son of God told I am not.

No one has claimed that you are not a slave or son of God.

I am sorry but you are breaking forum rules, the part where you are not allowed to say to some one who profess Jesus that they are not a Christian or saved, I have not done this to you but you have done this to me by claiming I am not the body of Jesus.

I did not say that you are not Christian. In fact, I specifically said that you are Christian (or, rather, quoted from memory what my priest has said about non-Orthodox Christians, that you are indeed Christians; the line between who is Christian and who is not is not the same as the line between who is Orthodox Christian and who is not).

Would you care to report and see what the admins say about who broke what rules?

No, thank you.

So my response was that is not what God's word says, and unless you can show me it say otherwise I am sticking by it.

That's quite alright. Just as I would ask you to refrain from arguing against our faith, I have no interest in discussing yours on this forum. Only to preserve this place as the specific forum in which we can discuss our Orthodox faith, including our eccelsiology, unhindered by the fact that others may disagree, so that those who come here might learn those aspects in which we are similar or different from them, as you set out to do.

You have no right to claim you are the only saved people on the planet and all the other churches are false religions. I may have to have a talk with staff. Now I see why no one post here.

I see. I believe you and I may be speaking different theological languages at this point. We do not generally discuss people in declarative terms of being "saved" or "not saved", as the Orthodox idea of what those words mean precludes this.

I happen to be in ministry with the education behind it.

May God bless your service.

You talk a lot about your church but you have told me nothing about God, that is where i was hoping we could find common ground.

What do you wish to know about God beyond what has already been answered?

Instead you tell me about man ideas, such as speaking in many languages, and that shows me what? That you study hard, or are you suggesting you have the gift from the Holy Spirit and can speak in all languages?

It was a way of attempting to explain why our church is as it is, even as you do not personally see it as in keeping with what God has ordained. I see I have failed in that regard, and somehow insulted you unintentionally, and for that I apologize. I do not know what you mean about "the gift from the Holy Spirit and can speak in all languages", though. Certainly there were people from all nations present at Pentecost (if this is what you are alluding to), but I am not clear what this has to do with this thread.

Don't bother answering I am not coming back but will be telling staff about what you are claiming in this section.

Well, I have already answered and hopefully you will come back and we can discuss whatever it is you wish to discuss in this thread or another thread. As for the staff, I trust that they will pass fair judgment upon me for whatever is troubling you in what I have written.

 

[Bluelion]

Sorry but to claim your church is the only true body of Christ is to say everyone else is not saved. You don't know what saved means? that you accept Jesus and surrender to His will, and accept the gift that He paid your debt on the cross. I asked you about salvation to which you did not answer.

What does Pentecost have to do with it, The Holy Spirit came as a tongue of fire and although there were people from all nations they all heard them speak in their native tongue. I asked if this what you claim your church does?

Name one thing you have told about God in this thread other than we believe in the Trinity? You talk alot about your church but I have not heard one thing from God's word in all of that. Maybe that is why we can not find common ground.

 

[Bluelion]

I trust the Bible is aloud to be quoted here?
tell me what does this passage say to you.

Mat 10
11 “Whenever you enter a city or village, search for a worthy person and stay in his home until you leave town.12 When you enter the home, give it your blessing.13 If it turns out to be a worthy home, let your blessing stand; if it is not, take back the blessing.14 If any household or town refuses to welcome you or listen to your message, shake its dust from your feet as you leave.15 I tell you the truth, the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah will be better off than such a town on the judgment day.

 

[kingskid]

Oh my..
I came in here because the title of the OP said trying to learn.

I hope you all get it worked out.

 

[dzheremi]

I asked you about salvation to which you did not answer.

Forgive me; I missed this question until I scrolled up just now and saw what you were referring to in your most recent reply.

While there are a lot of different ways we could talk about salvation in the Orthodox Church, my own diocese has put together a short (3 page) summary of the basics as we know and live them (available here; part of a series of lectures on our faith), of which I will highlight two sections:

Salvation is only available through the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, “without shedding of blood there is no remission” (Heb 9:22). The Passover lamb was a symbol of our Lord, “For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us” (1Cor 5:7). Through the blood of the lamb, the Israelites were saved from death, “Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I
strike the land of Egypt” (Ex 12:13). Through this precious blood sins are remitted and we enter in a new covenant with God, “This is My blood of the new covenant which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Mt 26:28).

+++

As for how we apply this understanding to our lives as Orthodox Christians, under the heading "Salvation is the story of the whole life", we read the following:

St. Paul said that, “The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (1Cor 1:18). Salvation in the Orthodox concept is seen as comprehending all of life; it is not a historical event that took place during a moment in the past. As the subject of salvation is addressed in Holy Scripture, the Orthodox Christian would see it in at least three aspects:
a) I believe that I have been saved, having put on our Lord Jesus Christ in baptism.
b) I believe that I am being saved, growing in our Lord Jesus Christ through the sacramental life of the Church.
c) I believe that I will be saved, by God’s mercy in the Last Day of Judgment.

+++

From this, we can see that salvation in the Orthodox concept is not a one-time or "one and done" event (so we do not believe in what is popularly called 'once saved always saved', or the idea of salvation in a particular moment, but rather that salvation is a life-long journey with Christ, undertaken within His Church as well as at the level of the individual, through His life-giving body and blood in the sacraments that are celebrated through His Church). The Orthodox Christian is baptized, receives the sacraments, and grows throughout a lifetime of prayer, fasting, and repentance in the way lit by our spiritual fathers and mothers and all of the saints who have pleased Him since the beginning.

What does Pentecost have to do with it, The Holy Spirit came as a tongue of fire and although there were people from all nations they all heard them speak in their native tongue. I asked if this what you claim your church does?

Does the Orthodox Church claim that it is the Church of Pentecost? Yes. But this does not necessarily have to do with who speaks what language (though that is a miracle associated with the original event). You do not need to speak a particular language to receive the Holy Spirit. But, yes, we recognize that this is an event in our history as Christians (I would think all Christians do), and recall it explicitly -- for instance, in this fraction prayer (a prayer recited while the priest is preparing the Eucharistic bread that is the body of our Lord to be received by the people in holy communion) recited for the liturgical period known as the Apostles' Fast (and the associated feast):

Name one thing you have told about God in this thread other than we believe in the Trinity? You talk alot about your church but I have not heard one thing from God's word in all of that. Maybe that is why we can not find common ground.

All things of the Church are of God, as it is the Church of God, and we accept no separation between the two (in other words, it's not like we can say "over here is the Church, and over there is God". No; Christ is forever present in the Church). But you will find many scriptural and patristic references all throughout the resources I have linked and quoted from here, and in my previous post (Fr. Tadros' book).

 

[dzheremi]

I trust the Bible is aloud to be quoted here?
tell me what does this passage say to you.

Mat 10
11 “Whenever you enter a city or village, search for a worthy person and stay in his home until you leave town.12 When you enter the home, give it your blessing.13 If it turns out to be a worthy home, let your blessing stand; if it is not, take back the blessing.14 If any household or town refuses to welcome you or listen to your message, shake its dust from your feet as you leave.15 I tell you the truth, the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah will be better off than such a town on the judgment day.

Is there a particular reason why you have asked about this portion of the Gospel? St. John Chrysostom (d. 407) explains it all rather straightforwardly in his 32nd homily on the Gospel, and I find nothing to disagree with in his commentary.

8. "And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy: and there abide till ye go thence."


That is, "it follows not," saith He, "from my saying, 'The workman is worthy of his meat,' that I have opened to you all men's doors: but herein also do I require you to use much circumspection. For this will profit you both in respect of your credit, and for your very maintenance. For if he is worthy, he will surely give you food; more especially when ye ask nothing beyond mere necessaries."


And He not only requires them to seek out worthy persons, but also not to change house for house, whereby they would neither vex him that is receiving them, nor themselves get the character of gluttony and self-indulgence. For this He declared by saying, "There abide till ye go thence." And this one may perceive from the other evangelists also.


Seest thou how He made them honorable by this also, and those that received them careful; by signifying that they rather are the gainers, both in honor, and in respect of advantage?


Then pursuing again the same subject, He saith,


"And when ye come into an house, salute it. And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you."49


Seest thou how far He declines not to carry His injunctions? And very fitly. For as champions of godliness, and preachers to the whole world, was He training them. And in that regard disposing them to practise moderation, and making them objects of love, He saith,


"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city."

+++

In other words: Exercise prudence in deciding who to lodge with when preaching, and how you treat them, taking care be moderate and not tax those you are staying with by your presence.